WW in EA, NC w/OM(?), W's BFF interfering, part 7

[hoosjim]

Quick update:

We had our session with MC Wednesday (10/4). Went fairly well, I was a validation champ. Maybe too much so, lol. W told me it seemed like I knew "all the right words to say" and that it was kind of "annoying". Think she was only half joking :-/ Bottom line was that counselor wants to see each of us individually, starting in two weeks (soonest we could manage), followed by more MC.

W let me know that she has been feeling a little "smothered" and that she needs space... like I am always around her and sometimes she needs time to herself. I listened, validated what she said, etc. MC inquired further. W explained that it had been a rough couple of weeks, her brother's wife miscarried (bringing up painful memories of our own miscarriage), a good friend passed away, and work has just been hell for her. I told her that I was concerned for her and had just wanted to be there for her if she needed, but could totally see how me hanging around her more could be stifling.

The reality is that, comparatively speaking, yes, I have been "around" her more the past week and a half or so, primarily because she has been going through a rough spot. But I have been far from a constant presence. Also, her moodiness/etc. has clearly been worse since last Friday's call from bff while bff was sitting with OM in bar, which brought my W to tears. Still getting out of the house to work out, run errands, etc. Didn't say any of this to her, just granted how she was feeling, and we agreed that I wouldn't push things with her unless she asked me to come talk or be there or whatever, and to try to give her some more space.

She still doesn't think there is any more talking or work to be done on "the hard stuff" (her A with OM and my prior neglect of her) and that that has all been talked to death. MC wanted us to do a little more work on it, talk about the things that were still bothering us, maybe one time between now and the IC sessions.

The latent rebelliousness is still floating around. She talked some about doing things because she was "supposed to" and that she had done things like that all her life. MC had previously urged us to "just do it" in terms of some more physical contact (hugging, hand-holding, etc) and she has, but she said Wed that it was still kind of weird because she was doing it "because she was supposed to" not because she wanted to. MC urged us to think about things in terms of "I chose to do this" rather than "I was supposed to" do it, to which W responded, "Yeah, but I 'chose to' do it because I was 'supposed to' do it", LOL. (She's sharp, if nothing else.)

She said its hard to know how to feel because "everything else" besides the romance/intimacy is "so much better" between us.

I also took down the surveillance I had put back up on her for a couple of days after bff's phone call. Not much point. I think I'll know if she falls off the wagon with OM and I can always put it back up to check. Other than the brief drive-by of OM's bar, there were no further slip ups. She did tell bff in a phoncon, though, that she does "think about" OM and that when she is not with me but out with friends or at work she has spells where she "constantly" thinks of OM and "does she have five or ten minutes she can sneak away" but hasn't been acting on it. Overall gist of the conversation was that bff had been less of an active enabler and more of a passive "opportunity" for my W to see OM, back when she was doing so. Also, that bff seems less interested in rekindling a romance between my W and OM but rather seems more of a mind that W should be able to hang out whenever and wherever she wants and that there wouldn't necessarily be any harm to my W seeing OM or hanging out in the same establishment as OM. Not that that makes me trust the dynamic anymore, but interesting.

Not surprised to hear W thinks about OM (It has only been about 7 weeks since the "hard" no-contact cutoff, and then the phoncon from bff in OM's presence last week couldn't have helped.)

Sandi2s most recent take on my sitch seems like it is pretty spot on. (W is in a delicate spot after a traumatic week, Give her space, don't push, no pressure, be as fun as possible with a PMA, Do something fun this weekend, be watchful for her going to see OM "one more time")

[AnotherStander]

W told me it seemed like I knew "all the right words to say" and that it was kind of "annoying".

You're doing just fine, she's still in the "these are just tricks to get me back" mode. You're doing a 180, it's different than what you did before, so she doesn't trust it. She will with time. Just keep it up. Nice work by the way, sounds like you are doing everything really well!

W let me know that she has been feeling a little "smothered" and that she needs space... like I am always around her and sometimes she needs time to herself. I listened, validated what she said, etc. MC inquired further. W explained that it had been a rough couple of weeks, her brother's wife miscarried (bringing up painful memories of our own miscarriage), a good friend passed away, and work has just been hell for her. I told her that I was concerned for her and had just wanted to be there for her if she needed, but could totally see how me hanging around her more could be stifling.

It's great that she's verbalizing that and you are validating. Now do what you can to back off and give her that space she's asking for. Our inclination is to double down on pursuit when they say they need space, like try to talk to them more and "be there for them". But sometimes giving space is the most loving, sensitive thing you can do for someone.

The reality is that, comparatively speaking, yes, I have been "around" her more the past week and a half or so, primarily because she has been going through a rough spot. But I have been far from a constant presence.

Maybe YOU think that, but her perception is her reality. So listen to her and give her space. If you give her too much space she will let you know I'm sure.

Also, her moodiness/etc. has clearly been worse since last Friday's call from bff while bff was sitting with OM in bar, which brought my W to tears.

The only thing clear about that is that you are mind-reading You may be right, but you don't know and it doesn't really matter. She's going to grieve OM, I know that is not fair to you but it happens and it's part of piecing.

Piecing ain't easy. If you read the threads of others that have been through it they often remark that it's a heck of a lot harder than DB'ing. Hang in there, sounds like you're doing quite well, you just need to be consistent and patient at this point.

[hoosjim]

Piecing ain't easy. If you read the threads of others that have been through it they often remark that it's a heck of a lot harder than DB'ing. Hang in there, sounds like you're doing quite well, you just need to be consistent and patient at this point.

Thanks, AS.

Actually, I AM doing very well. I feel good. About myself, about my boys, my life. Just came off a week plus layoff of my upper body workouts in the gym due to a mild shoulder issue that would previously have severely demoralized me and had me "babying" it for way too long. Instead, took it in stride, immediately attacked it with the therapy protocols I was familiar with (helps to have a wife who was a PT assistant at one point), and got myself back on a full workout rotation in nothing flat! My outlook on everything is just so much more optimistic now than it ever was, and my faith probably stronger as well, which I guess goes hand in hand.

I'm even over (and got over it fairly quickly) my near-insane anger at wife's bff from last week. Actually think I could sit across a table from her and talk things out rationally without being angry, accusatory, or anything but cool and collected. Not that I have any intention of seeking her out, but, if our paths should cross, I am confident I will not turn into some kind of rage monster or do anything else that might hurt my relationship with my W.

I just hope better things for her (W). Has been a very, very testing week for her, as I described above.

A little distancing right now, while still staying engaged, might actually be good for both of us. We HAVE been spending quite a bit of time together socially.

[CW2017]

Hi Jim
I find it really strange how your MC sessions seem to exactly match what mine were like. Although I.am now pretty much convinced that I am in a cake eating situation the going along with it mentality that wives seem to adopt in MC suggests there may well be a book out there waiting to be written about carbon copy female behaviour the world over.

All the best

[sandi2]

Maybe too much so, lol. W told me it seemed like I knew "all the right words to say" and that it was kind of "annoying". Think she was only half joking :-/

I have to agree, based on some word by word accounts others have given. I think some H's overkill with verbal validation. I mean, I would get annoyed just reading about it. Seriously though, if you feel you are over doing it, then you probably are in her opinion, as well. And btw, it's not necessary to validate everything she says. I get amazed how many men will post how their W said such & such and they validated her. Yeah, I would get a little annoyed, and it would certainly start feeling a bit smothering.

The latent rebelliousness is still floating around. She talked some about doing things because she was "supposed to" and that she had done things like that all her life.

Yep, I did too. Plus, her BFF is adding her viewpoints into the mix.

I also took down the surveillance I had put back up on her for a couple of days after bff's phone call. Not much point. I think I'll know if she falls off the wagon with OM and I can always put it back up to check. Other than the brief drive-by of OM's bar, there were no further slip ups.

Well, that's up to you. Just beware b/c this thing is far from over. You think you'll know, but didn't she fool you in the past?

The things she is saying about MC doesn't sound good, and I wish it wasn't two weeks until the next session. However, she is feeling depressed and continue for a while yet.

[hoosjim]

I have to agree, based on some word by word accounts others have given. I think some H's overkill with verbal validation.

Actually, and interestingly, it was not the validation part that sparked her to say "It seems like you always know the right thing to say and that's kind of annoying." Instead, it was something relating to how I had acted, and, for the life of me I cant remember what it was, so thrown off was I by what she said which was both encouraging (I'm saying the right thing) and, possibly (and I'll reiterate here that it is quite possible she was mostly joking) a little discouraging. Whichever, point taken that I need to not go overboard with it. I AM careful not to "validate" concepts that are clearly contrary to a sound MR. In this same vein, we had a follow up conversation on Friday where I apologized for insinuating earlier in the week that she wasn't giving priority to the MC effort (I didn't mean to imply such, but I worded it poorly and that's how she took it, so...) and I ended up saying "see, I DON'T always know the right words." (She laughed.)

Yep, I did too. Plus, her BFF is adding her viewpoints into the mix.

Yes, interesting that the whole "supposed to" discussion came up just a few days after bff had called from bar and razzed her for doing what she was "supposed" to do. Previously, W had referred to that aspect of her personality/history/past as doing what was "EXPECTED" of her. Hadn't heard her use "supposed to" previously.

Well, that's up to you. Just beware b/c this thing is far from over. You think you'll know, but didn't she fool you in the past?

True, but her opportunities right now are EXTREMELY limited and basically consist of anything she can do electronically from her office... Which I cannot monitor anyway without EXTREME risk of getting caught (like slipping something into her handbag... an accessory she switches out and empties fairly frequently... I did it once months ago, but it was nerve-wracking as hell though I did find out OM had called her there). I effectively have monitoring I can check anytime anyway because several weeks ago she turned on her phone tracker utility that our cellular carrier provides free of charge. It's not perfect and doesn't constantly monitor and show you the subject's path of travel like a gps tracker (you have to request location on the carrier's website), but it's there kind of like a safety blanket (available for me if needed and something she has to think about that hopefully helps keep her honest.) At any rate, actively and aggressively monitoring her is just too hard, time consuming, and emotionally fatiguing to do 24/7. I am trying hard to maintain some detachment, and that gets more difficult when I am following her every move.

The things she is saying about MC doesn't sound good, and I wish it wasn't two weeks until the next session. However, she is feeling depressed and continue for a while yet.

She has brightened up a LITTLE the past couple of days. Her office's switchover to the new patient processing software went "live" and she was really scared it was going to be nightmare (she had worked close to 50 hour workweeks the past two weeks) but it ended up not being as bad as feared. She has been more open and jokey, and I have kept my distance a little at home and she has sought ME out more.

We did have a fairly fun weekend, though not as good as some others in the past month. Went out Friday night while S17 was at football game taking pictures for yearbook (I am encouraged that she hasn't asked to go to one of these-- OM's son is the team's QB). Went to a local pub to see a new band and watch baseball (her idea). Was nice but we didn't have the same sort of full-time "everything clicked" fun we had had the previous weekend. Saturday went to football game at my son's college and had a good visit with him. That was a little better-- W hung out some with our friends that came from "my side" of our respective lives (my college buddies and their wives)and she was really, really happy to see S18 about whom she has been worrying.

MC had wanted us to talk about some of the things in the workbook she gave us... some of the tougher things concerning the hurts we had caused each other. As I said before, W thinks these things have been talked to death and asks me specifically "well what do you want to talk about", to which I have so far kind of generally replied "I just feel like we're not over the hurtful things we did to each other-- I know I'm not and you've said you can tell that sometimes- and that we need to do some work to get past those. (When talking with bff on that last convo I mentioned earlier, she had told bff "well I am sure whatever he wants to talk about involves OM"). She also, obviously, on her side of the street, clearly needs to do her own work on "getting over" the OM... but I don't really feel like that is something I can say to her at this juncture, though the MC is very eager to get her into IC so she can work with her on understanding affair addictiveness, how the A and any lingering feelings for OM can ABSOLUTELY affect my W's ability to "see" anything romantic for us on the horizon, and to impress upon her the importance of maintaining strict no contact if she is serious about working on the MR. All completely true, IMO, But, as I said, not something I feel I can say to her right now.

We also need to talk about and work through her relationship with BFF. That's clearly a major issue-- her husband and her best friend are currently clearly at odds in her world, a situation that cannot possible persist if she is to be a healthy "her" and we are to have a healthy MR. During the MC session, we touched on it a little bit and I asked her to put herself in my shoes-- how would she feel if the situation were reversed and I wanted to go hang out with MY best friend who had helped enable my EMA? Wouldn't that bother her (and she granted that it would.) Her convo with bff, however, consisted of a lot of bff saying "well, he clearly thinks I was setting up hook-ups between you and OM, which I wasn't. that really pi$$es me off... he's obviously trying to drive a wedge between us." (For the record, I have never accused bff of "setting up hook ups" --thought that's sure as hell what it sounded like a couple of weeks ago when she was trying to entice my W out to the bar-- but what she did was certainly across the line and enabling of the affair: serving as liaison by phone/text, allowing my W to use her house as a "return address" on mailings to OM, going to social gatherings and bars with W to see OM, lying to me to cover up W's relationship with OM, etc.) The big thing, though, obviously, is that W used that relationship as cover... at some times when she was supposed to be with bff she would slip away for a while to go hang out with OM. The true "harm" of the relatiohship even if bff was not as proactive as I think she might have been, is that pretty much every time I know of that W saw OM, with one or maybe two exceptions, she was either with or supposed to be with bff.

Sorry, got off track there a little with bff, and it still bothers me quite bit, TBH. My MAIN concern right now, however, is to keep moving forward and to keep W engaged in doing so.

She says encouraging things from time to time now, like Monday she was talking about whether or not "We would go to the lake with [my--hoosjim's] family next summer" and "what we were going to do for the holidays in 2018", but then she'll come up with something like she did yesterday when we were talking on the phone about vacations and she was like "I really want to go somewhere tropical for my 50th (next May) but I want to go with my girlfriends". That latter was kind of hard for me to hear-- we are not wealthy, though we are comfortably "middle" to perhaps "upper middle" class, and a trip to the Caribbean or the like is not just a throw-away trip that we don't have to budget and plan for (Especially since we will soon have 2 kids in college). That she would want to go do something like that without me, and especially on a big occasion like her 50th, is kind of demoralizing. (FWIW, I had thought of doing something like that FOR her for 50th if things were going well for us but, obviously, that would have included me going as well.)

At any rate, just trying to figure out when and where and about what I should try to get her to do some talking again. She said she wanted space and I have given her some and that has seemed to correspond with an improved demeanor on her part. We next have MC (and, hopefully, a couple IC sessions the same day) a week from Friday, and it would be nice to have something new or something we had done on our own at MC's suggestion to take into that. Just not sure when would be the best to approach her and what we could talk about. I had been thinking that a "safe" place to start would be the affair triggers and opportunities-- she has repeatedly said "I really don't know how and when it crossed the line or how it happened" (WRT the affair), so my thought was to say "so why don't we explore that and try to figure it out-- both how the two of us got to that place where you were able to "step out" of the MR and then specifically what things you and/or Om did, or circumstances that existed that directly led to the relationship crossing the line."






Also, would love to discuss with her MY feelings regarding why I am still somewhat skittish about her and bff and about whole dynamic in general given missed opportunities to improve trust. In particular, the "farewell" phone call to OM, which she did not do in front of me and, given that OM has since contacted me, twice, seems to indicate it was not a particularly strong or strident "good bye". Also, the mishandling of the burner phone... rather than handing it over saying "here it's yours, it's over, do whatever you want with it", she pitches it and there are no records or even a phone number to run down (bff claims, apparently, to have deleted it, according to wife...of course wife could just be scared to ask her.) Either one of those were GREAT opportunities to make me feel a WHOLE LOT BETTER, but we're missed. For either, though, and taking into account your suggestion to not criticize or pressure right now, not sure it is a great time to bring those up. At least her phone pattern with bff is very suggestive that she is not maintaining a separate line... that is unless she cut bff out of the loop.

[sandi2]

MC had wanted us to talk about some of the things in the workbook she gave us... some of the tougher things concerning the hurts we had caused each other. As I said before, W thinks these things have been talked to death and asks me specifically "well what do you want to talk about",

I have observed WW's who were not fully "repented" for their affair, want to skip over having those discussions.....or at least, hurry through it and move on to something else. I suspect your W's recent setback has stirred up feelings for the OM, and she feels guilty and doesn't want to talk about it.

Actually, I am not so sure the workbook assignments or more talk about the hurt is going to be productive at the moment. I think your W is a little defensive, asking for space, and reluctant to continue discussion on the pain of the affair, etc. Pushing for more talk, at this time, may prove to push her away from the goal.

the MC is very eager to get her into IC so she can work with her on understanding affair addictiveness, how the A and any lingering feelings for OM can ABSOLUTELY affect my W's ability to "see" anything romantic for us on the horizon, and to impress upon her the importance of maintaining strict no contact if she is serious about working on the MR.

I never understood why the MC didn't stress that subject during the first intensive 4 hour session you had. Maybe b/c it was key in helping my decision to turn to back, but I think many WW's fail at overcoming their A's simply b/c they are not educated about the addiction and the withdrawals, so they don't know what to expect. I'll tell anyone that it is he!! going through the withdrawal period. When I was going through my hardest time, we could email board members. So, I was getting extra support off the board. Even one of the two main vets that were mentoring me was surprised by how long the withdrawals were lasting.

when we were talking on the phone about vacations and she was like "I really want to go somewhere tropical for my 50th (next May) but I want to go with my girlfriends". That latter was kind of hard for me to hear-- we are not wealthy, though we are comfortably "middle" to perhaps "upper middle" class, and a trip to the Caribbean or the like is not just a throw-away trip that we don't have to budget and plan for (Especially since we will soon have 2 kids in college).

That's not good. Don't get me wrong. I don't have a problem getting together with girlfriends awhile to celebrate a birthday. My problem is seeing a married woman and mother choose being with girlfriends to celebrate rather than being with her family. Something common I've seen in WW's is that they not only prefer being with their girlfriends, but it is "friends" that want to get rowdy and push boundaries. And too, they want to go off somewhere for the entire weekend....or longer. They don't want their families to go, b/c the WW's don't want to act like M women who are mothers of teenage kids, or older. They want to act like college age GGW while their families are left behind. This is selfish, wayward, thinking on your W's behalf. And the fact she wants to go so far from home, and mentioning at this time....makes me very suspicious. Even if there were no GGW behavior, there is some reason she wants to get so far from home without her family. I can't see her going there without her BFF. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that isn't where she got the idea. Sorry, I shouldn't have said that b/c it doesn't help your feelings. I'm serious when I say I have seen M's bust apart just this way, with one female friend influencing the other one. The bad thing about this is that I don't know what you can do about it right now. I don't think "talk" is going to cut it.

When is your birthday, Jim?

We also need to talk about and work through her relationship with BFF. That's clearly a major issue--

I understand and agree that BFF is a serious problem. I know your W is an adult, but I have seen IRL many women over the years who were strongly influenced by other females. I don't think this is a subject you can undertake just between you & W. Not right now, b/c she's too sensitive about BFF for you to address it again. I think the MC needs to handle it with your W. If the MC knows anything, she knows how women can influence one another (positive and/or negative).

At any rate, just trying to figure out when and where and about what I should try to get her to do some talking again.

My recommendation is to back off. I don't think you need to push a talk or anything. Give her some personal space and don't smother or appear as if you are watching too closely. That may sound contrary to what I've said previously, but you have to understand that she is riding the fence rail right now. When she's committed and showing signs she's really trying to piece, then you do everything to encourage and support her. Since she's had the setback (at least, emotionally) and struggling....I think you need to let up on trying to get her to talk. It's emotional pressure on her, and it won't go well.

I'm not suggesting you ignore her or show any coolness toward her. Be relaxed, pleasant, etc. Just keep your lips zipped about all that stuff you want to discuss. I know it will hard not to express your opinions or make comments about the BFF, but I hope you won't at this time. You can't manage either one of them. There's a difference in supporting, encouraging, and leading......from trying to manage your W's decisions and actions. So. get back on the detaching horse.

If your W was to get herself together and truly ditch OM and her BFF today and never see or hear from them again....it would probably take from now to next May before she would be completely emotionally withdrawn from OM, unless he does something to really turn her off. I think it would take even longer to withdraw from her friend, b/c of their history.....unless the MC can do something to help her through it faster. However, if your W ever gets really mad or disgusted at BFF.....then it could happen quicker....if BFF didn't try to make up. I remember one case IRL, where I didn't think anything would come between two friends I knew, until one of them flirted with her friend's H. That did it! I mean that friendship was over right then and they never made up.....and that was about thirty years ago. Funny thing about it is that the W & H had been having some problems, so when the W felt threatened by the BFF....she cut that lady out of the picture real fast. BTW, the H was innocent in all of it, according to what the W told me. In other words, he wasn't trying to break their friendship apart, and he didn't try to instigate anything with the friend. So, you just never know.

[hoosjim]

I never understood why the MC didn't stress that subject during the first intensive 4 hour session you had. Maybe b/c it was key in helping my decision to turn to back, but I think many WW's fail at overcoming their A's simply b/c they are not educated about the addiction and the withdrawals, so they don't know what to expect. I'll tell anyone that it is he!! going through the withdrawal period.

She addressed it briefly, but we had a LOT of s**t that came up that day. Spent a lot of time on hurts from our past (Our miscarriage and misunderstandings between us about that was a big on). MC has mentioned it a couple of times, since, and clearly wants to get my W alone so she can talk frankly about it. Not sure W trusts the MC enough, however, (or perhaps it is comfort) to go ahead with the IC. If in fact we do get in next Friday, MC has said she VERY MUCH wants to see W individuaily. We shall see. Anything you can think of or any tack I can take to help things along, or just, as you indicate below, keep my lip zipped for now (even if W asks if I "want to talk") and wait for MC to bring it up?

That's not good. Don't get me wrong. I don't have a problem getting together with girlfriends awhile to celebrate a birthday. My problem is seeing a married woman and mother choose being with girlfriends to celebrate rather than being with her family. Something common I've seen in WW's is that they not only prefer being with their girlfriends, but it is "friends" that want to get rowdy and push boundaries. And too, they want to go off somewhere for the entire weekend....or longer. They don't want their families to go, b/c the WW's don't want to act like M women who are mothers of teenage kids, or older. They want to act like college age GGW while their families are left behind. This is selfish, wayward, thinking on your W's behalf. And the fact she wants to go so far from home, and mentioning at this time....makes me very suspicious.

Yes, it is very troubling. And by "with girlfriends" she assuredly means with her single girlfriends including bff who very much DO behave like single girls and try to entice W to do so. I was VERY tempted to day something when my W said this yesterday, but I bit my tongue and actually said nothing. Should I have said something, do you think?

I can't see her going there without her BFF. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if that isn't where she got the idea.

Actually it was W's idea. It came in that last convo from last weekend that was on the recording I got when I put the surveillance back up for a couple of days. W actually said "you know, for my 50th, I just really want to go away somewhere, but I want it to be with myself or maybe just with girlfriends if I can find any" (she thinks she doesn't have many good friends when, in actuality, she does-- she just doesn't have any friends besides bff who like to go out and party it up all the time) to which bff responded "Well, I would totally do that... go with you, I mean." I also need to add here that my wife, to the extent she is a WW has not done many, if any, things to leave her kids behind or neglect them, and this is despite a VERY troubled (at times) and difficult to deal with S17 who has near-autistic caliber (at times) Tourett'es Syndrome. She has remained VERY concerned about kids and VERY committed to being with them and keeping close with them. In fact it may be the MAIN reason she is still "here".

When is your birthday, Jim?

LOL my birthday is in april, about three weeks prior to hers (we are both Taurus, LOL). Are you suggesting I plan something for myself prior to her plans, to make her think about it? (I'll be 52, btw). FWIW, she has frequently been suggesting I go off to do things with my friends (she suggested I go to vegas with them when they go in November, most recently) but I have been reluctant to leave her at home by herself for that long a stretch.

My recommendation is to back off. I don't think you need to push a talk or anything. Give her some personal space and don't smother or appear as if you are watching too closely.

So, play it cool, but stay friendly and still engage socially, I presume (without overdoing it?) Letting her go out on her own last night to field hockey game with a couple of friends (these married and mothers of other highschoolers) seemed to go well, and she was curious afterwards about where I went. But it was tough on my part. OM is a football Dad, and their practice ended not long before the Field hockey games started. W stayed on phone with me whole drive over there though (she called me from car) until she was in stands with friends. Then my S17 went over later, so pretty sure she didn't get in any mischief (and I checked phone location once to be sure.) But it seemed to be a good dynamic that we were a bit apart for a night.

where I didn't think anything would come between two friends I knew, until one of them flirted with her friend's H.

I don't know if anything will ever come between her and bff... though if bff's sitch gets ugly enough it might wake her up. Back in April when bff's last affair (with her H's then-best friend, also a friend of mine) came to light, I remember relating it to W (who actually already knew it turns out about the FACT of the affair) and when I started telling her how bff's AP had just been a really cruel jerk to my friend when my friend had come down there to visit him in Florida and he had told my friend about the affair and went on and on about how bad a H he'd been, etc (total dagger through the heart stuff), my W cut me off and said "no, no don't tell me, I don't want to know") So I think there is a point past which she won't countenance bff's actions, and she also said once not long after that she was "evaluating all her relationships, including that with bff".

Also, interestingly, bff made a veiled pass at ME about the same time frame. W laughed it off at the time as probably nothing, but then again W had also said not much after that that the thought of me with another woman didn't bother her.

[sandi2]

Anything you can think of or any tack I can take to help things along, or just, as you indicate below, keep my lip zipped for now (even if W asks if I "want to talk") and wait for MC to bring it up?

If she asks if you want to talk, I would say something like...."At the moment, I simply want to encourage you to take the opportunity to meet alone with the MC". But IDK, it may just lead her to start picking you. You can always answer with, "No, not at the moment".

Yes, it is very troubling. And by "with girlfriends" she assuredly means with her single girlfriends including bff who very much DO behave like single girls and try to entice W to do so. I was VERY tempted to day something when my W said this yesterday, but I bit my tongue and actually said nothing. Should I have said something, do you think?

No, I think you were wise to not respond. She may start dropping these type of statements to get your reaction.......you know, like a test. She has BFF saying all sorts of negative things in her ear about you and the M, so I think you may expect more of this line type of testing from her.

LOL my birthday is in april, about three weeks prior to hers (we are both Taurus, LOL). Are you suggesting I plan something for myself prior to her plans, to make her think about it? (I'll be 52, btw). FWIW, she has frequently been suggesting I go off to do things with my friends (she suggested I go to vegas with them when they go in November, most recently) but I have been reluctant to leave her at home by herself for that long a stretch.

It's a trap. If you go to Vegas with friends, then it justifies her GGW party.

So, play it cool, but stay friendly and still engage socially, I presume (without overdoing it?) Letting her go out on her own last night to field hockey game with a couple of friends (these married and mothers of other highschoolers) seemed to go well, and she was curious afterwards about where I went. But it was tough on my part.

Yes, to your question. I know it must be very tough to see her go out, but you can't keep her locked up. With OM being a local person, there is always that chance they will run into each other.....whether planned or not.

Also, interestingly, bff made a veiled pass at ME about the same time frame. W laughed it off at the time as probably nothing, but then again W had also said not much after that that the thought of me with another woman didn't bother her. frown

Oh don't you believe it! She does not want another woman refilling her position in your life. I think some WW's say things like that, b\c they are trying to justify their own emotional or physical infidelity......and who have no reason to be concerned that H may turn to another woman. Remember, WW's are very self-centered, and I think most are jealous, as well.

[Painful]

Oh don't you believe it! She does not want another woman refilling her position in your life.

Sandi -

Don't mean to hijack your dialogue with H, nor did I read H's sitch. But do you you believe your statement above is true for all WWs or just specific for H?

The reason I ask b/c I think my WW is anxiously waiting for me to get together with someone so that she can finally legitimize her OM in everyone's eyes. Like "see, he's over me and dating, so my future is with OM and all of you need to forget about Painful b/c he doesn't want to be with me" (as if making me responsible for MR breakup). Currently all her family and most friends reject the OM and want her to get back to me. But of course, her resentful and rebellious wayward mindset - as you so eloquently described some time ago - wants to stay with OM to prove everyone wrong. Thus my q in bold.