Limerence and My Situation 5

[Maika]

Yes, it is about keeping the door slightly cracked open without letting her in on that it's open. It's being that positive amazing person without pursuit. It's about being detached and empowering yourself without waiting. Time will change things yes, and it will tell its tales when ready. Let's see what we find out.

[Ginger1]

I know that this post was not really about Mark's thread, but I have been thinking about this idea for a long time now.

The reality is, we are ALL plan B. Or we were plan B at some point. Or some of us might have been plan zero. The fact that our W/H chose to run off with AP, makes us plan B by definition. If we were plan A, they would not have run off.

I have also come to realize that any LBS, in the history of the world, that has reconed their marriage, was plan B. If our S's A has blown up in their face and they return, we are plan B. I have often thought that I don't want to be plan B. These very boards preach that we can't be plan B. If that is the case, then we all need to go file D right now because currently, we are plan B.

Here's the rub though. I recognize that I am plan B for my W now (or plan zero and I don't know that yet). If I save my marriage and we decide to recon, I know that I would be going into piecing as plan B. But!!!...We have to begin to recon knowing that were are plan B, but our goal needs to be to return as plan A to our S. That is the only way it can be done.

We were all once plan A for our S's. They picked us, loved us and married us. I know I was plan A for my W for a very long time. My thought is that, if we were all, at one time, plan A for our S's, why can't we become plan A again in the future. I don't see any other way around this concept.

So, I have accepted that I am plan B or plan zero right now. I also have hope that if I ever get the chance, I can become plan A again and I think that Mark's mind is operating in that same way.

The way I see it that an affair rarely happens in a healthy, fulfilling, marriage. The spouse feels somehow neglected. This does not mean that I condone affairs, of course not, however in THEIR view they see themselves being right and in THEIR view they aren't OUR plan A. They feel entitled to feel the feelings they get from the AP. We tend to shift our priorities to work, children, family life during our long marriages and we forget to water the grass by continuing dating and taking time for the just two of us.

In my opinion, the term "plan B" for someone isn't viewed from their perspective but ours. When someone is a plan B for someone else, it usually means the person is there WAITING for the WS/WAS/MLCer to return, sobbing their sad life and that they would directly accept the WS/WAS/MLCer back into their life happily without the long and hard piecing process. They keep collecting the breadcrumbs and stay attached... We aren't "the plan B" when we are happily living our own lives moving forward, accepting that the M is over and lovingly detaching while enforcing our boundaries. Realizing that we are fine either way and we judge the situation again IF and WHEN the WS/WAS/MLCer decides to shift their view of us.

I don't know why you got so offended by this Mark. He absolutely right. It doesn't mean that you didn't invest.

I will share some insight from two people IRL. One has been directly telling her husband that she will divorce him if he doesn't change. He changes for 5 min and goes back to his ways. SO, she was being straightforward and honest. I witnessed a few of these exchanges, and she couldn't have been more direct. Well, she has lost every feeling for her H. She is having a heavy affair. She is with him because they had a kid and have many financial entaglements. So, she has this A. Does this excuse her A? No. But I really hate when a LBS spouse feels that their WAS should have threatened divorce to get them to listen to them. That's not love and consideration for your partner. Most often the communication is there, but it shouldn't take a divorce threat for the LBS to hear them. And in this persons case, that didn't even work.

Another instance is that of a great H, but due to her own issues she can't stay married to him. There really is nothing he could change. She wish there could be. he wishes there could be. He is great. But she has her own stuff. He can't fix her stuff.

When a spouse decides to go wayward, lcause is right, everything wasn't great. It doesn't mean that no one didn't invest. It means that there were issues that were tended to. In the case of my M, it was a horrible cycle. I was treated poorly all my life by my ex, I decided to take him off his pedestal while going through infertility, high risk pregnancy, and focus on myself a bit and instead of shedding some focus on me, he went out and found someone who would prop him back up on his pedestal. I was done with that. So, he went wayward because his needs weren't being met by me. His needs were too demanding for me and were never reciprocated. What he did was awful. But his PERCEPTION was that this was what he needed to do. I know I was a great partner/wife for a very long time. People couldn't believe what I put up with. One day I no longer put up with it, and he felt the need to find someone who would. My fault in that sitch was trying to hold the M together alone. It simply can't be done.

There are so many different reasons and perspectives. And Lcause is very right. and not offensive at all. Just truthful.

[Zues126]

I don't know why you got so offended by this Mark. He absolutely right. It doesn't mean that you didn't invest.

I will share some insight from two people IRL. One has been directly telling her husband that she will divorce him if he doesn't change. He changes for 5 min and goes back to his ways. SO, she was being straightforward and honest. I witnessed a few of these exchanges, and she couldn't have been more direct. Well, she has lost every feeling for her H. She is having a heavy affair. She is with him because they had a kid and have many financial entaglements. So, she has this A. Does this excuse her A? No. But I really hate when a LBS spouse feels that their WAS should have threatened divorce to get them to listen to them. That's not love and consideration for your partner. Most often the communication is there, but it shouldn't take a divorce threat for the LBS to hear them. And in this persons case, that didn't even work.

Another instance is that of a great H, but due to her own issues she can't stay married to him. There really is nothing he could change. She wish there could be. he wishes there could be. He is great. But she has her own stuff. He can't fix her stuff.

When a spouse decides to go wayward, lcause is right, everything wasn't great. It doesn't mean that no one didn't invest. It means that there were issues that were tended to. In the case of my M, it was a horrible cycle. I was treated poorly all my life by my ex, I decided to take him off his pedestal while going through infertility, high risk pregnancy, and focus on myself a bit and instead of shedding some focus on me, he went out and found someone who would prop him back up on his pedestal. I was done with that. So, he went wayward because his needs weren't being met by me. His needs were too demanding for me and were never reciprocated. What he did was awful. But his PERCEPTION was that this was what he needed to do. I know I was a great partner/wife for a very long time. People couldn't believe what I put up with. One day I no longer put up with it, and he felt the need to find someone who would. My fault in that sitch was trying to hold the M together alone. It simply can't be done.

There are so many different reasons and perspectives. And Lcause is very right. and not offensive at all. Just truthful.

Hey Ginger! I'm glad you continue to post. I like reading what you have to say.

We all have our own values and views. I wanted to share mine. In the first example you gave the woman was very clear with changes she wanted from her H and he wouldn't or couldn't make those changes. My view is- SO WHAT?

Life isn't easy or fair, we don't get everything we want. To me the idea that she expected her H to change when she wanted him to the way she wanted him to, and that when that didn't happen he proved himself a dud...that is just strange to me. She married him. She committed to him. Then when it didn't play out the way she expected it to she decided to lob out ultimatums and eventually start an affair?

Even if she had filed and divorced before rebounding I wouldn't support this. I've shared my thoughts on this before on when divorce makes sense. "Because they won't change into the person I expect and feel entitled to" isn't on my list.

Not trying to convince anyone else either. Just putting in my $.02

[Ginger1]

Hi Zues, my friend. I just wanted to state for the record I do not agree with what this person is doing. She knew who he was when she married him, hoping he would change. And I don't think she should have an A, obviously.

That being said, I know we have some different views, and we have the utmost respect for each other.

But I do see certain actions in a marriage that are a form of infidelity and abuse.

I hope anyone can learn from here, however, to take accountability. I have. I think laying all the blame on the WAS by saying "well, you didn't threated divorce, else I would have changed, it's your fault" will not benefit anyone in reconciling their current marriage or helping them with their future relationships.

[25yearsmlc]

[quote=Ginger1]Hi Zues, my friend. I just wanted to state for the record I do not agree with what this person is doing. She knew who he was when she married him, hoping he would change. And I don't think she should have an A, obviously.

Hey Ginger, I agree. I would add that in this^^^ scenario, the h did not change and the w was "on notice."

But There are times when one spouse changes, (or reveals a new side to them) and the other partner is stuck with accepting the new crappy deteriorated m, or to leave.

Telling your spouse that if they don't change you "will leave/divorce" is harder and nastier sounding than you might realize. It's also not advised by any MC's (right or wrong). Divorce is not a word to be thrown about lightly, and for many people, the hope that things will improve keeps you hanging around a long time.

Especially when the h says he will change, and does so temporarily but her needs remain unmet,

and if he's the one paying the bills and there are kids at home...

ANYHOW, For ME, it feels like it should be enough to say "h, it really hurts me when you do X" or "I feel like we/our m/family are not a priority, when you make that choice and I'm unhappy".

there are folks here who heard that, and changed for a week...and then reverted. Hoping they could throw crumbs often enough to avoid doing the work their spouse pleaded for.

So if the behavior does not change - it's awfully hard to tell yourself for the rest of your life, "Either divorce - (& deeply wound the kids/mess finances up- or suck it up".


Once the vulnerability sets in, if the temptation arises - the image/fantasy of the OP fixing the sadness (!!) or whatever the issues were, SEEMS a ton easier. And that is why some m's are ripe for A's. And perhaps Park is waiting for the "seems easier" phase to end when reality sets in. I get that.

Because it's statistically rare that someone leaves for an AP and marries them AND is glad of their choices, 5 years later.

So this is not about defending affairs, it's about not seeing them all in the exact same light.
And not prescribing the exact same path for the LBS.

And this^^ is about when an otherwise decent person strays, as opposed to someone who really is not like us & really does not share our values (long term, I mean).

There are disordered people who fake us out, or change on us, and we come to see them as people we cannot actually live with again. Even if they want to reconcile.

PARK, I make no assumption about your wife here^^. From what you post it's obvious you see reason to have faith. Good on you.

There are some LBSers who take on way too much blame for their spouse's choices

and others who have narratives in which they are the hero/victim, and their spouse's who had the affair did it in a vacuum

and is "100% wrong 100% of the time" (that is an actual quote I've seen here a few times.) Seems to me most of us are somewhere in between.

To sum up with a question,

if someone comes here believing a spouse's A is "100% wrong - 100% of the time",

then why come here?

[25yearsmlc]

Ginger wrote:

I hope anyone can learn from here, however, to take accountability. I have. I think laying all the blame on the WAS by saying "well, you didn't threaten divorce, else I would have changed, it's your fault" will not benefit anyone in reconciling their current marriage or helping them with their future relationships.

amen^^^^. A year ago I would have summed up the m problems with "H broke his vows", but there is more to it than that.

As betrayed as I still feel, I see more things I would do differently if I had the information then, that I have now. I see my own role more clearly.

(Mostly I'm glad about seeing my role more. Because If I had been a perfect w and this crap still happened, I'd feel powerless going forward.)

Having said ^^this, I also see my h in a very different light. If we had a time machine then we could undo/redo things needed.

PARK, not saying you should date. In fact that would be pretty unfair to women you meet.

Just that if she knows you are "waiting" - that will slow down the return like nothing else. Why not explore OM's or whatever, if there's no rush since Park will be there later, anyhow?
Not that she'd make that choice, consciously...

Anyhow, my cousin and his wife recon after 3 years, and My aunt and uncle recon 5 years after their divorce.

It happens

[sandi2]

As betrayed as I still feel, I see more things I would do differently if I had the information then, that I have now. I see my own role more clearly.

IMHO, that statement pretty much explains what all of us are doing on this thread, and probably with most newcomers. We are trying to pass along experiential information or what we've learned through other sources.

As I previously stated, when I read Mark's responses, it often reminds me of when I was the newcomer, so I suppose I feel empathy. I remember the very first post Puppy (long time vet) responded behind mine......I was pi$$ed. Well, I came across that old post one day and was able to read it without taking it as a direct slap in the face. After reading his old threads, I learned his own W was wayward and he was responding from his own experience and what he had learned through his mentors and educated materials on the subject. Until I could get better acquainted with his personality and writing style, I'll admit he could challenge me. To this day, he is one of the vets I most respect.

I said all of that to say this.....when I read the posts on this thread, I can see what posters are saying pretty much of the time....even if they don't break down the message fully. Perhaps it helps by being more familiar with ones who we've followed.....or we recognize where their post is intended, b\c we have are familiar with the theme. I've been here so long until I recognize the main message the poster is trying to relate.....b\c I have seen the same messages being passed down to newer members for years. Now me...well, I've written the same thing over and over until I catch myself trying to get too much covered at once or getting in a hurry. The results could lead to untended implications. Sometimes I read someone else explaining something I've written.....and I think OMG, is that how they took what I said?

Not everyone agrees all the time with everyone. Personally, I feel I can learn from most everyone....if nothing else, their opinion. And my opinion here is that we are trying to get Mark to see or agree with what we say. But I know from myself that if a reader takes it as an insult, it's going to be difficult to change their viewpoint by what we are telling them. (And if you've ever read any of my posts, then you know I am not talented or skilled in tact, but I am working on it :), but I doubt I will ever be like Another Stander. Now that man has tact!). I say this for Mark, and any newcomer's behalf (which nearly all of you are newcomers).

On behalf of those who have recently posted to you, Mark, I truly don't see them trying to make you sound like a "bad" H. However, I do recognize the language. For instance, "entitlement" was used to help define the wayward wife when I first came on board and bumped heads with Puppy. I use that word in my own posts. It is not a slam against the H. It is describing the mindset of the WW. I understood Gingers post as well as the others, and I knew what she was trying to relate to you. So, I hope you won't wear out and quit. Please don't take what is said as attacks or insults. Trust me when I say that if you hang around here long enough, you will begin understanding the language or message in a more objective way.
At least, maybe it won't feel so offensive to you.

[Parkema]

Hello All,

Wow where do I start!

My WW has just come back from a 5-night vacation with her AP/LO and picked the boys up from me. The first visit went well with me showing the usual Mark and everything went off without a hitch, once she had taken the boys back to the FH I received a text that S8 wanted his Trombone and could I take it round for him.

A simple enough request BUT I have a boundary about AP/LO being in my house and WILL NOT go round whilst he’s there and this was the case in this instance. WW came back to my house and I just went to give her the instrument when I was faced with her saying I must come face-to-face with AP/LO and due to my stance my S8 is getting upset that something bad will happen if we did!

Now I don’t intend to come into contact with AP/LO at all as I feel this is helping me stop the pictures of them together as I can’t put a face to that person, I mentioned that I will not come into contact with him and that there is no need for us to meet. I feel this is just another way for my WW to make her life much easier.

Why would she want us to meet?

Do you feel I’m right in my stance even though it is VERY upsetting to both my S’s?

We’ve all had other partners who we no longer see or have any communication with, and rarely do our paths cross!

This was an awful encounter. Both boys in absolute bits as the argument went on and crying uncontrollably, I tried to keep my cool and did to a degree until she started getting louder and more aggressive showing no respect for any of us.
I told her to leave and allow me to talk to the boys to outline that there concern isn’t warranted as I don’t intend to come into contact so is a non-starter!

She wouldn’t leave it at that and insisted that there would come a time where we’ll meet but due to my stance and the unknown of what I’d do if we ever did meet the boys are afraid if this was to happen BUT I just don’t see this having to happen and tried to get this across to her BUT again as usual fell on deaf ears as I basically disagreed with her over this point and she continued to try and get her own way.

His whole episode is THE WORST I’ve experienced since we’ve been together and had a massive impact on our boys.

As I speak this I just want to be with my boys and comfort them knowing she is taking them back to a stranger and "brainwashing" them against me.

Horrible.

M.

[AnotherStander]

Now I don’t intend to come into contact with AP/LO at all as I feel this is helping me stop the pictures of them together as I can’t put a face to that person, I mentioned that I will not come into contact with him and that there is no need for us to meet. I feel this is just another way for my WW to make her life much easier.

Why would she want us to meet?

Well, it's probably what you said- she's worried the kids see you and OM as mortal enemies and they're afraid of what will happen when you cross paths (which is bound to happen at some point). It's no doubt also a convenience thing for her, she doesn't want to leave the house and come there every time she needs something, she would like you to come over there. She would no doubt also like OM to drive her to your place if she needs to come there, or even take the kids to you himself without her. And all of that ^^^ is her problem, not yours. You've already told her what your boundary is, it frankly doesn't matter whether she likes it or not. If she brings it up again you might defuse the situation by saying something like "we can discuss it in the future, but right now I just cannot deal with meeting or being around OM, please respect that." If she wants to pout/ argue/ kick/ scream then so what, just calmly reiterate to her that it is your boundary and it's not open to negotiation.

Do you feel I’m right in my stance even though it is VERY upsetting to both my S’s?

It sounds like your sons were upset about you and W fighting, which is a completely separate issue. You should do whatever you can not to fight with her in general, but never, ever fight in front of the kids.

I tried to keep my cool and did to a degree until she started getting louder and more aggressive showing no respect for any of us.

Once she started escalating, that was the time to walk away. Just tell her you're sorry she's upset and you would be happy to discuss it later once she has cooled off a little. Then you leave.

Sorry you're going through this, it's very difficult. Hang in there!

[leahsue]

Oh Mark! What a nightmare. I have no advice for the specific situation, but just wanted to say I think you handled it as well as anyone could have- that's a boundary for you, and you were man enough to stand by it. I know it's heartbreaking to think about the boys, but you will have them soon, ALONE, and I'm sure some wise person on here can give you advice on how to talk to them and give them the reassurance that you are handling this, and in control, were that situation to arise with OM.

ALL of this stinks!

Keep being strong. ((((( Mark ))))))