Limerence and My Situation 4

[Parkema]

Hello All,

I’m trying to refrain from giving my advice on these boards because it VERY subjective and should be taken with a pinch of salt!

EastTN – I appreciate your views and would agree I’m spending time looking at the A in the hope that it will fail BUT A’s do end. I won’t go into statistics but they either end or turn into regrettable long term R’s (regrettable to the WS), being analytical I also realise the chances of RC but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t work at it…

AS – To be clear, what I’m doing regarding working to save my MR is for me NOT my WW. She is TOTALLY oblivious to it, I hardly talk or see her except for drop-off and pick-ups it’s then where my SC kicks in.
Pursuit comes from HER she comes to me NOT the other way around the confusion I get from these boards happens at that point! I don’t stonewall her or give her the cold shoulder but show her a confident, cool, calm and classy (4 C’s) individual who’s moving on with his life. Always smiling always happy BUT always willing to listen and validate.

AS you mention your brother’s wife was involved in an A and has been for a long while can I ask whether your brother is now in a stable R? I ask because as you’ll know statistically the WS do regret their choices especially when the BS has moved onto another. By this time it’s too late to RC and they then fall back to their original AP/LO or onto another, wash rinse repeat...!
The key thing here is if at that point where the WS realises they’ve made a mistake and look to RC we don’t continue to stand for our MR and move on in life the possibility has gone! I intend to do all I possibly can to keep my family together, I won’t have anybody tell me or me question myself that I didn’t do everything I could to RC.

Btrow - “I once read on another forum that you should take a John Wayne kinda approach. Polite, but firm. I like that approach.”
EXACTLY. This is the approach I take with my WW, ONCE SHE COMES TO ME (please stop with me pursuing her it doesn’t happen ever) I just act civil around her keep my boundaries in place and remain firm if she tries to disrespect me ESPECIALLY if this was to happen in front of anyone, shot down immediately. I wouldn’t suggest the right word is “nice” please see above about how I act when we have the inevitable face-to-face.
Ask yourself this question – what did the AP/LO do to turn your XW away from you? I agree 50% of the problems in my MR is my responsibility and I’m working on that BUT imagine the scenario between the both of them at the beginning of their EA>PA. Attitude, attention to detail, total compliance, emotional support and validation, it goes on and on. What do WE do? Vanish, don’t talk, and keep it business like if we do talk. I know why we do this ^^^^ BUT comparing the two scenarios no wonder the AP/LO wins! < Yes I’m fighting for my MR.

Maika – Pursuit again!!! Please I wish I could invite you all around and see a typical “hand-over” of our children. As LRT would suggest I am nowhere around when it’s my turn to have our boys stay over. I’m out of sight but obviously not out of mind as she’ll COME TO ME. When I don’t have the boys stay with me it basically ends up with goodbyes to the boys and a civil “are you okay” to the WW. Could you point out where I’m pursuing here… Maika could you expand on your smart contact approach?

CW – Respect is key here, look into the boundaries thread here and research it “cake eating” is a key issue, we need to look at our situations much like being on a see-saw we need to gain that balance. We can’t have the cake eating as that can go on forever, who would blame someone having the best of both worlds?
The DR’ing detachment, NC needs to be adhered to BUT catered for OUR particular situation.
Am I right in saying you live in the same house still? I was in this situation and asked WW to leave and be with AP/LO, she refused and it started to get very stressful/toxic for my boys and I so had no choice but to move out of the FM for OUR own sanity.

I STILL get 2x4’s from the board for doing this BUT I live my situation NOT THEM, I know it would have been better for WW to move out but she was having none of it and continued the A. If I had stayed there my children and I would have suffered massively.

Please read what the vets say here and read the book (although there is very little regarding WW), as I mention at the beginning of this post what I do I do for me BUT it’s based on research from experts in this field, medical studies and poles of people who are or have been in our situation, but again I’m no expert and am living my situation. Most vets here have lived it and are now in a place where we are not, I just feel there is too much enthuses on getting to the point of D instead of the point of RC and TO ME that’s just wrong.

I’m preparing for the hits now… Just my opinion!

M.

[Maika]

Hey Mark - thanks for the explanation. I think it clears it up further than some of what you have written on this in the past.

I think what you're describing as smart contact sounds pretty good to me. I sense that you've gotten tons of 2x4s because you've paired it up with standing for your MR and being the best option - but I guess the way you described it looked like you were doing all of this to entice your W back, rather than just doing it for lasting internal changes and truly becoming detached. But I sense a change in how you're talking about it now.

I get the standing for your MR and that you want to be able to stand tall and say that you did everything possible - and that is extremely admirable and what we all want to be able to say.

The key thing here is if at that point where the WS realises they’ve made a mistake and look to RC we don’t continue to stand for our MR and move on in life the possibility has gone! I intend to do all I possibly can to keep my family together, I won’t have anybody tell me or me question myself that I didn’t do everything I could to RC.

Let's say this happens - what are your non-negotiable requirements to take your W back? Are you prepared to take her back even if the dynamics of your previous MR haven't changed? If she doesn't agree to do the work with you and/or does it half a$$ - would you still keep her to keep your family intact? I get that you want to stand for your MR, but at what cost? What does she need to do get you back?

I think this is the crux of maybe what the critiques have been about - your overarching goal is to keep the family intact (nothing wrong with that), but that supersedes everything, maybe even including your own personal sanity and needs in life from a future relationship. And this is where I see that you put yourself at risk for the next BD because if you've taken her back and things are essentially the same, then it's just status quo with a blip that happened. As you very well know in your sitch, it's not a blip, but a massive earthquake that ripped you out of your own home. Is your desire to keep the family intact putting you and your kids sanity and wellbeing at risk again?

I am just asking these questions to get a sense of where you're at and what you want to do. I think that you have to get over the fact that if you don't drop the rope, you're a failure and that you didn't do everything to save the MR.

As to smart contact, I essentially agree with your approaches. one of my main goals is to do a 180 on a survival behaviour that I have cultivated over my lifetime - cut people out who betray my trust. I am working to not do that because it's not a real way of managing conflict and I just bury the issues rather than tackle them head on. My IC is working with me on this and I am putting this into practice with friends and family. I had a bit of a falling out with two really good friends, but I have started rebuilding that relationship after 2 years of basically cutting them out - huge change for me.

With W, I never initiate anything unless it's about kids or business stuff. When I see her, which is rare now, I am upbeat and positive and chill. My smart contact approach is to not cut her out and see how I can work through my feelings over time to see if she will have a place in my life. I don't know what that will look like in the future - assuming we don't recon, which is what I am going to assume to move forward.

I think the real change here is that my smart contact has the foundation of detachment underneath it. It allows me to have authentic interactions with her where I am not worried about how she will react to things, or that I am doing things to get her back, even if I am trying to play positive and chill. I think this detachment piece with smart contact is important because it allows you to take the edge off and you really come to a place where you can just be you without worrying about consequences or effects of your actions and words. I am also able to truly relax and be myself in these situations.

I hope what I've said makes sense.

[Parkema]

Hi Maika,

My family and my MR IS EVERYTHING at this present time, I still know I’m very early in my situation and need to allow time to pass so that my WW can work through her issues.

I think we all know only too well what WW would need to do to aid RC I just hope I get the chance.

“Assuming we don't recon, which is what I am going to assume to move forward.” So you act as if it’s over..?

I am ALWAYS viewing a positive outcome and I act as if this is where it’s going irrelevant of what they do, I’m not concerned with them at all (although this does sometimes creep up on me). Eventually over time their R with dilute and the chemical cocktail driving the A will subside and the brain will return to a more normal condition (this is medical fact), with the DR principles being applied and the possible loss being felt of a once secure trusting committed R there could be a change in stance. The acting as if for me I feel shows a totally different person when interacting with WW than you would, which ones right? Who knows?

I prefer to work on the premise that I’d rather work towards RC than D it’s just what I do within this time and how I manage my situation that gets me the most hits across the head from the vets! .

“One of my main goals is to do a 180 on a survival behavior that I have cultivated over my lifetime - cut people out who betray my trust. I am working to not do that because it's not a real way of managing conflict and I just bury the issues rather than tackle them head on. My IC is working with me on this and I am putting this into practice with friends and family. I had a bit of a falling out with two really good friends, but I have started rebuilding that relationship after 2 years of basically cutting them out - huge change for me.“

Maika you mention this ^^^^^^ how does this view and the DR principles fit in with your situation? Do you “cut your WW out” or modify the principles to allow for RC?

I’ve learnt a lot from people like Sandi, 25years, AS and so on and appreciate they’re looking out for me, I don’t see any change in my situation but this is to be expected due to the length of the A. I have a timeframe I’m working towards after this point and if the A continues then I look at it differently with a different approach, let’s hope I don’t get to that stage…

M.

[Btrow]

I have a timeframe I’m working towards after this point and if the A continues then I look at it differently with a different approach, let’s hope I don’t get to that stage…

Mark, I know you won't reveil your timeframe, but maybe you could give us a small hint. Are we anywhere near, well.. the 36 month mark?

[Maika]

Hi Mark. Let me try and answer your questions first and then I have a few of my own.

“Assuming we don't recon, which is what I am going to assume to move forward.” So you act as if it’s over..?

Yes, I am acting as if it's over. There is no going back to the previous MR and I wouldn't want to. I am acting as if she's completely done for now. Which she is - she told me in the clearest way possible: "for me this separation is permanent". Does this mean that it is going to end up in a D - I have no idea at this point. We all know that WW/WAS change their minds and the point of DB is to be the attractive option for her in the end. However, I am not waiting for her to realize that I am the attractive option because then I am not making changes for myself, but for her to change her mind. I am doing things just for me and if she ever wants to recon, I will have to assess how I feel at that point in time. I can tell you that I am not ever taking her back without her putting in some serious work. I won't go back to the previous MR.

I prefer to work on the premise that I’d rather work towards RC than D

I get it, but you don't have control over that. You could DB the hell out of everything and she won't take a second look at you. She has to come to a point for herself, and nothing you can do or say will make her change her mind. It has to be organic from within herself. If you work on yourself with the premise that there will be RC, you're setting up yourself for disappointment, which goes completely against trying to detach yourself from the sitch and her. I personally think you have to let go of it, or else it will dictate everything you do because you have some expectation at the end, even if it's a teensy weensy one. It will cause you more hurt.

Maika you mention this ^^^^^^ how does this view and the DR principles fit in with your situation? Do you “cut your WW out” or modify the principles to allow for RC?

So, the old me would have been "see ya goodbye and I don't ever want to see your face and I won't even tolerate your physical presence". With me trying to improve myself in conflict management and not burying emotions, I am using a very slow approach with W that also incorporates DB principles. So, I don't initiate anything unless it's kids or business stuff. If she asks me any questions, I give her answers but I don't blabber my mouth off. For e.g., she asked me the other day how often I was going climbing. I told her that I try to come as often as my body can handle it. I didn't tell her exactly like 2-3 times a week or whatever. I also talk to her in a very chill and positive manner so as not to appear dismissive. I also reciprocate - if she asks me about my day, I respond and ask her the same. I don't get beyond that, but I go beyond just being civil. I am more relaxed and positive. If she talks to me about anything in her work and uni, I actively listen and validate. I don't ask follow-up questions on whatever she's saying unless it makes sense. I don't probe but I am not dismissive.

This allows me to have that positive interaction with her that is genuine for me and I can be authentic. It also allows me to protect myself emotionally as I don't read into anything she says or expect her to change her mind about the separation.

With my rebuilding the relationship with my 2 friends, it's completely different because I can go at an accelerated pace with them as they are my friends. With W, I first protect myself emotionally.

So, going back to my previous post, you didn't answer my questions. I am going to put them back again.

what are your non-negotiable requirements to take your W back? Are you prepared to take her back even if the dynamics of your previous MR haven't changed? If she doesn't agree to do the work with you and/or does it half a$$ - would you still keep her to keep your family intact? I get that you want to stand for your MR, but at what cost? What does she need to do get you back?

One more comment

My family and my MR IS EVERYTHING at this present time

I think most folks here would probably share that sentiment. But, what troubles me with that statement is that you are banking who you are and what your identity is on family and MR. Yes, you have roles in those relationships that are super important, but who are you? Who is Mark outside of that? How does Mark derive happiness in life that is not reliant only on family and MR?

I love my kids to death and they are a huge source of happiness in my life, but they don't define who I am. I was co-dependent in my MR and I lost who I was in those years. Now I am getting back to myself and I realize that there is so much inside of me that gives me happiness - who I am as an individual.

Get rid of possible outcomes from your thinking - RC or D. I think that is fundamental. Yeh, we're trying to bust our separations and potential divorces, but the DB process is where our chances really improve to do that. If you don't drop the rope and detach completely, I don't know how you're improving your chances.

[AnotherStander]

Pursuit comes from HER she comes to me NOT the other way around the confusion I get from these boards happens at that point! I don’t stonewall her or give her the cold shoulder but show her a confident, cool, calm and classy (4 C’s) individual who’s moving on with his life. Always smiling always happy BUT always willing to listen and validate.

I understand, I wasn't suggesting that you were pursuing, I honestly don't get that impression from your posts at all. I was simply explaining why pursuit FEELS right but ISN'T right From what I can tell it sounds to me like you are doing quite well with DB'ing.

AS you mention your brother’s wife was involved in an A and has been for a long while can I ask whether your brother is now in a stable R? I ask because as you’ll know statistically the WS do regret their choices especially when the BS has moved onto another. By this time it’s too late to RC and they then fall back to their original AP/LO or onto another, wash rinse repeat...!

No, as a matter of fact he has not so much as gone out on a date since BD, S and D. From what he's told me (mainly what he hears from their kids) she certainly doesn't sound happy in her R, but that never equated into her reaching out to recon. Maybe she's just that madly in love with OM, or maybe she's just too proud and stubborn to admit she made a bad choice. Most of the time we never do find out what's in their head.

[YepYep]

Mark,
I have read every single post in your thread over the last 24 hours. I'm not an expert around here, just a stalker but I want you to know that I'm pulling for you man. Not necessarily your marriage but for you!

I'd also say that I'm a fellow nice guy working on fixing myself in a similar but different situation. I realize that the there are a lot of parallels to be drawn between DB'ing and fixing the nice guy problems that we were taught were the right way to be a "proper man". I see 180's GAL'ing especially as a way to be regardless if I end up divorced or reconciling. Basically what I'm sharing is the understanding of the need for this to be a permanent change, not a way to win her back. I think you are there too but if not hopefully a gentle reminder will help you get there.

[sandi2]

I STILL get 2x4’s from the board for doing this BUT I live my situation NOT THEM, I know it would have been better for WW to move out but she was having none of it and continued the A. If I had stayed there my children and I would have suffered massively.

I may get stones thrown, or accused of contradicting my own words, but IMHO, I believe there are some cases that it is better to leave, simply b/c of the horrific situation. Yes, I believe in standing up for what you believe and standing on principle. When you have a b'tch-crazed woman under your roof, you have to do what you believe is safe for your children and yourself. You know better than anyone how horrific it could become.

I am so opposed to in-house separation that I would say to move out, if your cheating W disrespects you so much that living under the same roof is intolerable. I use to say that the H should stay in the MBR and the marital home, b/c he is the head of the family and he is the faithful spouse. I still believe, in principle, that is the right decision. However, sometimes that's easier said than done! I'll have to admit that over time I have read cases about some wayward women that simply blew me away by the extreme measures they took to constantly have the upper hand. Some women will physically attack the H. She'll berate, belittle, and disrespect him in every fashion possible. The WW who has reached this point of such vile contempt is not going to reconcile with a man who stays there and endures her hatred. His only chance for R is to cause physical space by getting away from her. And, since the man has to be extra careful, or he'll get slammed in jail with false charges (yes, that has happened).......I say he needs to protect himself and leave a volitive situation.

[Btrow]

Aheeeem AS, hate to be the Internet Police here :

I've related this story before in other threads, but back when I was going through S and D I spent a lot of time asking my male friends and relatives about their own divorces. These were all guys that had a WAS, not the other way around. None of them were DB'ers, but some of them just naturally took a DB approach while others did not. Now granted this is a small sampling, I think we're talking about 15 people. Of those, only 2 of them reconciled. So that would be, 13%? So you might look at this and say "AHA AS, see I told you, even in your own experience barely more than 10% reconciled!!" But guess what, I asked all those LBS's how many of their WAS's approached them about recon. Are you ready to hear this? 100%. Every last one of them.

From what he's told me (mainly what he hears from their kids) she certainly doesn't sound happy in her R, but that never equated into her reaching out to recon.

So you didn't even bother to ask your own brother in that little survey you made back then

[lcause]

LOL Btrow. I was actually thinking the same thing when I read that. Got me laughing, not in a bad way though.