Trying to stay above water 2

[Henwen]

So weird thing came up at work today. Some customer asked me and my office assistant If H was single. We've never seen this lady before. So my office assistant who knows my story says no my H is not single and I am his wife. This woman blushes and changed the subject. I walk out of the office and she asks my office assistant how my and Hs relationship is. I come in the middle of the this conversation and tell this weird, b@llsy woman that she can have him. H walks in and she tells him that I told him she could have him. Because she was wondering if he was single. H goes is that right? The woman finishes her business and leaves. She was not a looker of any kind. Her outfit was complete with compression socks. My office assistant and I are speechless about this woman hahaha my H does not know what to think. We are appalled at her behaviour. Anyways. Here's the good part. Back 6 months ago. I would have been so jealous. I would have freaked on Hs head for no reason. But today I didn't care. Not at all. It was such a light feeling. I'm going to bed tonight feeling ok for today's win. For at least today I felt normal and ok with my whole situation. And one day I can't wait for a day to stretch into every day.

On the h and I front I continue to be happy and casual. My old self. And now I see h grasping onto his anger. Anything to get angry about, even if it's not my fault. Just so he can stay in his little world validating why I am such a bad person. And you know what. Now that I know that. His opinions make me laugh. Because I know what he's doing. And it's pathetic. And no longer holds any power over me.

[25yearsmlc]

So weird thing came up at work today. Some customer asked me and my office assistant If H was single. We've never seen this lady before. So my office assistant who knows my story says no my H is not single and I am his wife. This woman blushes and changed the subject. I walk out of the office and she asks my office assistant how my and Hs relationship is.

WHATTTTT????WOW...that is "tubesy" of her (as opposed to "ballsy") You sure she does not know your h? So weird...

I come in the middle of the this conversation and tell this weird, b@llsy woman that she can have him.

so you did assume they had a prior R? (Otherwise why say it, right?)

H walks in and she tells him that I told him she could have him. Because she was wondering if he was single. H goes is that right?

If they really did not know each other

then I think you had a chance to do a lighthearted loving (180?)

thing like "He's my h and I'm too attached to him to let him go/too used to his presence to want it removed/still love him after all these years so I think I'll keep him"


and if they really did not know each other, I might be hurt if I were your h. FYI




The woman finishes her business and leaves. She was not a looker of any kind. Her outfit was complete with compression socks. My office assistant and I are speechless about this woman hahaha my H does not know what to think.

you don't think there is anything between them, correct? Pretty territorial of her.



We are appalled at her behaviour. Anyways. Here's the good part. Back 6 months ago. I would have been so jealous. I would have freaked on Hs head for no reason. But today I didn't care. Not at all. It was such a light feeling. I'm going to bed tonight feeling ok for today's win. For at least today I felt normal and ok with my whole situation. And one day I can't wait for a day to stretch into every day.

^^This is great!!

On the h and I front I continue to be happy and casual. My old self. And now I see h grasping onto his anger. Anything to get angry about, even if it's not my fault. Just so he can stay in his little world validating why I am such a bad person. And you know what. Now that I know that. His opinions make me laugh. Because I know what he's doing. And it's pathetic. And no longer holds any power over me.

the longer you can experience this type of peace, the better. You'll backslide at times b/c hey, it's NOT a Linear process as you know.

But when there is less pain and power over you, enjoy those moments and watch them grow.

[Henwen]

I 100% know they do not know each other. I would have thought that as pursuing so that is why I didn't say anything to that effect and just sloughed it off as she could have him. H and I talked a bit about the r last night via text. Nothing specific but I can tell he is still hurt and light years away from coming home. He just won't let go. Like I said. He is now grasping onto anything to keep being angry over me. Even a mutual friend sees it. And mentioned it. My IC wants me to broach the subject of him taking the kids an extra night/ evening during the week. Since he refuses to take them 50/50. He says he can't find a house big enough for all of them live comfortably. Which is in correct. There are lots of houses out there. But I don't force the subject yet. So that is why my IC told me to ask him to take them an extra evening. So he can do some of the driving for the kids instead of it resting all on my shoulders. He was doing some complaining last night about having to split assests. Everything he worked for gone. In the past I have said that he should think about coming home then. But that is considered pursuing. I said instead that I always hoped that it would never come to this point. That we could work things out. But he seems adamant on this divorce and this is the next logical step. I also said I was a bit tired of him giving me grief over the division of assets in a divorce that he wants and I don't. I was patient and did not speak from emotion. Or at least I don't think I did. I guess basically part of me has given up. It's a long hard road. And do I wait for him and waste more time or do I just move forward. It's also a long lonely road and I miss having a partner to talk about my day with and spend time with. And his anger of me is really wearing me down. I am the best I can be. And like I said he still finds issues to be angry about.

[25yearsmlc]

I 100% know they do not know each other. I would have thought that as pursuing so that is why I didn't say anything to that effect and just sloughed it off as she could have him.


While I understand your ^^^^ thinking, the "37 rules" are guidelines only. That is one of the remarks in Sandi's preamble.

We each have to see what fits our situations. In your case, I don't see complimenting your h as pursuit, so much as a 180 (no offense). Plus, saying she "can have him" is an insult. It's not merely not pursuing.

If you see nothing hurtful in your remark to the woman yesterday, I fear that's part of an underlying problem.

You seem unaware of the ways in which you hurt your h. So it's natural that you are confused that he's still hurt.



H and I talked a bit about the r last night via text. Nothing specific but I can tell he is still hurt and light years away from coming home. He just won't let go.

^^^this is sort of dismissive mind reading - which you are using to get yourself off the hook. And it begs the question, why is he hurt? (No skimming, dig deep & face).

My h used to say that our d's "refuse to let go" of the hurt caused by h's long absences from home - (several years).

He seemed to believe spending a few days on a trip and muttering a vague half hearted "sorry I wasn't around so much" would change it all. And when it did not, he used their "refusals" as an excuse to blame them for the damaged relationship AND for throwing in the towel. Even now, he is sad about how they have not spoken to him in a year, as opposed to how he has hurt THEM deeply.

You've sort of vaguely said you have a temper -& call that "owning" your part, and that you like to get everything out in the open for conflict resolution. Your h feels differently - obviously. Perhaps if you two learned to resolve conflict without any rancor or resentment or blame, it would happen.

But the assignment of blame and a certain defensiveness does arise in you quickly, and from what you have written, some of it on his end as well.

You cannot change HIS approach, only yours.


Like I said. He is now grasping onto anything to keep being angry over me. Even a mutual friend sees it. And mentioned it.

why would the friend mention this to you?

My IC wants me to broach the subject of him taking the kids an extra night/ evening during the week. Since he refuses to take them 50/50. He says he can't find a house big enough for all of them live comfortably. Which is in correct.

why does your C or you want him to take the kids more? is it really so they can have more quality time or b/c you want to show him the consequences of his actions? Are you teaching him a lesson?

There are lots of houses out there. But I don't force the subject yet. So that is why my IC told me to ask him to take them an extra evening. So he can do some of the driving for the kids instead of it resting all on my shoulders. He was doing some complaining last night about having to split assests. Everything he worked for gone. In the past I have said that he should think about coming home then. But that is considered pursuing.

Calling that^^ pursuit is debatable. I'd say it's more like you want to show him how much he will suffer for leaving you. It's a negative pressure form, not a carrot, just a stick.

To me, your fear of "pursuing" seems to me to theme for you & I cannot tell if it is a fear of rejection that you are hiding behind, or an excuse to stop making changes.



I said instead that I always hoped that it would never come to this point. That we could work things out. But he seems adamant on this divorce and this is the next logical step.

meaning what?

. I also said I was a bit tired of him giving me grief over the division of assets in a divorce that he wants and I don't. I was patient and did not speak from emotion. Or at least I don't think I did.

I guess basically part of me has given up.

Yes, and let's ask why.

Hen, you said yourself that your changes are recent origin, whereas the BD is a year old. Relatively speaking, can you see why he'd doubt the changes? IF SO, I'd remind you that your changes are for the m, the family and for you.

If you are ever again in a romantic relationship, these^^^ changes will deepen your connection & commitment. Brene Brown writes about "wholehearted" people. She has data that measures (as best you can) how they love and live more authentically.

The common factor they have is the willingness to be vulnerable. My concern is that vulnerability is just too uncomfortable for you, & so you want to push him away - in case he does not welcome you back into his arms. And soon.

Just consider ^^this, okay?


It's a long hard road. And do I wait for him and waste more time or do I just move forward.

if you working on the m feels like you are waiting and wasting more time, then I'd advise you to adjust that dramatically. Maybe read that detachment piece again?

It's also a long lonely road and I miss having a partner to talk about my day with and spend time with.

Oh wow, believe me, I get this^^^. (Truly!!) I do have family nearby, thank God. I believe you do as well, but regardless, reach out to work on that loneliness. I don't think the split holidays will consist of us sitting all alone in our homes, looking out a window at all the happy families.

Only a small circle of friends gets my "divorce news" updates. They are supportive friends. Do you have such a group?

And You and I both have children. Although they don't get involved in the divorce, they do love me and enjoy our time together. I know the same is true for you.

Try to let that^^ nurture you more, without dragging you into a question session about their dad. (Again, I get the temptation to ask!!)

GAL in a way that introduces you to more people, preferably new people. It is a great distraction that ultimately can be very fulfilling, not just a filler for time.

I really have connected with some of my new friends in the DivorceCare group. See if your area has one b/c I don't think it's unique to America. And churches and women's centers and family centers often have support groups that help. FYI the groups I have joined have never been just circles of self pity. People there want to be healthy and happy and we do things together. Last night I went to a concert with a woman from DivorceCare. I had fun. No references to h BUT I COULD HAVE if need be.

Hen, you have to do all this^^^ type of things no matter what. Why not start now, so the pain of his absence is less acute?

And finally, how would you pushing harder for the divorce help you with any of the loneliness or rest of ^^^^ this?

The rush for certainty over uncertainty, can often lead us down a road we really did not want. Sometimes we think "oh, if I push for certainty then my spouse will jump back to this side of the fence."

It backfires a lot.


And his anger of me is really wearing me down. I am the best I can be. And like I said he still finds issues to be angry about.

If your positive changes are for you and your life, no need for change there. Don't attach expectations of him b/c you are becoming a happier woman.

If he wants to be angry at OR around you, while you are humming a song and smiling at customers, there will be a moment of clarity for him. And frankly, he won't factor in your behavior, which is at it should be.

Question - what would change if you divorced now?

Do you think your life would be meaningfully easier? If so, weigh it all out and make a choice.

And know that this does get better.

[Henwen]

I know why he is hurt. I have apologized and asked for forgiveness. I believe I have got over his EAs. I don't bring them up anymore. I always now put thought into my words before speaking. And yes you are right. Being vulnerable makes me uneasy. The EAs hurt me. I have never felt so worthless in my life before. It took me a long time to heal from that. I still have triggers. But I can manage them much much better now. My H needs validation and acceptance for him to feel happy. He always looks to the outside for his happiness. His brothers are like that as well. My H is very negative. He has an anxiety issue that he won't deal with that comes out in anger. It gets frustrating to deal with that. To be told that you are wrong even tho you absolutely know you are right. I totally get what you are saying. And please believe me when I say I am being patient. I come to work with a smile on my face and no longer let his moods affect me. I wasn't like that before. I always gave out what I got. Now I try to look beneath the surface of why he is upset and try to come up with a solution. It took me a while but I finally get that I can't change his ways. Just me. Which is what I am doing. Because if I do get into another relationship I don't want to carry the bad baggage with me. I have realized that if he can't let go of his anger I need to let him go. He is always telling me to move on from his EAs. So I worked hard and I did. But he is still
Stuck. I don't want to stay in that dark bitter place anymore.

My d is a competitive dancer. I am constantly on the road with her. Every night. So my IC said that he could take some of that load off me.

My fear of pursuing is because I don't want him feeling trapped or pressured. He made a remark a long time ago that he felt stifled. So I don't want him feeling that way. He knows I want him home. I have come right out and said it. But I have also said most recently It's ok if he wants to end it. Whatever he wants I will support.
GAL is getting easier. I joined a book club. I'm doing renos to my house. Working out. I checked out divorce care here but our chapter is shut down right now.

Thank you for your advice as always. It helps to see the different perspective.

[25yearsmlc]

Hen,

I know I'm throwing a lot your way. And i know the pain of betrayal.

If theres a part of you that really just wants out, I get it. Hey, i'm there myself. My line of thinking for you is more about leaving no stone unturned because some of what you say does strike me as something you'd want to work on anyhow.

So figure out where the line or boundary is, between your wounded pride and a healthy self respect.

And GAL in a way that leaves him guessing because its real GAL.

make sense?

[Henwen]

Totally makes sense. Although he p*ssed me off Friday. He was heading to the cottage with our youngest Friday. So I told him next weekend was his weekend and our D had dance for the majority of Saturday and then a birthday party on Sunday. I just wanted to give him the heads up that he needed to adjust his plans. Well he got angry and told me that he wasn't going to come back multiple times for her stuff and her stuff could just be cancelled and that he wasn't giving up his weekend. I got so angry. The only thing I said was but this is your daughters life as well and it's your weekend. Then he started to tell me I wasn't going to tell him what to do. So I said I'm too angry right now to talk about this. We can discuss this when we are both calm. So that right there is a huge success for me. Normally I would have been angry and blaming and not letting it go. But I just backed off. And I haven't talked about the situation yet. I'm not sure how to proceed. I obviously can't force him to take the kids. I get he works long hard hours and needs the down time. But on the other hand kids aren't there for convience. And my time is worth something as well. I don't need to be driving her all over the place either. But I do it because I am a parent. So I either stifle the anger and work thru it with my IC for the betterment of my family. Or I put up boundaries and say no. This needs to be done half. I am tired of always being the one parent that is always there for the kids. I love my kids. But he can't just take the kids only when it's convenient for him. Yes I am bitter about this part. Because I always thought he was better then this. And again I know I can't control his actions. But did he really think he could just leave and not have any responsibility? That part drives me crazy. And before this set back we were getting along really well. And then he blows up over having to 'ruin' his weekend.

[25yearsmlc]

Totally makes sense. Although he p*ssed me off Friday. He was heading to the cottage with our youngest Friday. So I told him next weekend was his weekend and our D had dance for the majority of Saturday and then a birthday party on Sunday. I just wanted to give him the heads up that he needed to adjust his plans.


my suggestion is either let your D tell him, jot a note or leave it totally alone and let your h face the consequences. Yes your D may suffer in the short run but it's not really Your job to manage their r. It's a challenge I continue to face, though now that almost a year has passed, I've withdrawn from it.


Plus, once you gave him the info, the rest of it "that he needed to adjust his plans" was not really for you to say.

Do you see why? And do you see why it sounded like you were telling him what to do....because you were.

This^^ does not make you a POS or a horrible wife. It's just behavior you may want to change.


Well he got angry and told me that he wasn't going to come back multiple times for her stuff and her stuff could just be cancelled and that he wasn't giving up his weekend. I got so angry. The only thing I said was but this is your daughters life as well and it's your weekend.

but Hen, he knows this^^. It's sort of you guilting him and trying to control his time and the outcome.

What if you Let go of the results and just worked on you? What would that look like?

Then he started to tell me I wasn't going to tell him what to do. So I said I'm too angry right now to talk about this. We can discuss this when we are both calm. So that right there is a huge success for me. Normally I would have been angry and blaming and not letting it go. But I just backed off.

clap clap clap!!! GOOD ON YOU!


And I haven't talked about the situation yet. I'm not sure how to proceed.



You do NOT have to "talk about the situation"!! Leave it alone - unless you want a divorce, in which case, what is there that has not been said already?


I obviously can't force him to take the kids. I get he works long hard hours and needs the down time. But on the other hand kids aren't there for convience. And my time is worth something as well. I don't need to be driving her all over the place either. But I do it because I am a parent.

Here is what I have learned, and you can certainly take it with a grain of salt.

Essentially I raised our 3 kids myself. Certainly when S31 left and I was with the 2 d's, h was gone, off & on, 8 of the past 11 years in some form of "commuting" work situation. He's a doctor, we were near a huge city, so it was completely unnecessary to commute.

So I drove the girls to & from school, to all their activities (d28 is in the film industry and when she could not drive and was a minor, that meant I had to be on set or stage for every rehearsal with d20 tagging along). Often d20 did not get to bed till LATE. She slept in the car on the way home, a lot. God, looking back that makes me sort of sad.

Like you, I put them to bed every night, cooked, cleaned, laundry and hey, YOU know the rest. And we had their friends over a lot. Some kids were like 2nd children to me.



H missed all ^^^that but he'd show up for SOME of the highlights like Homecoming (a big dance in the US) though he missed the Prom (graduation dance, a big deal here). I guess he'd be there for the proud dad events.

I don't think h even knows what he missed. He does not know what he does not know.

Looking back, I realize that the drives to/from and bedtimes and meals, were all times of information sharing. I knew who said what, which friend was kind, or angry. Which boy meant the most or least, what the teacher said. Their homework, their fears and worries and excitements and joys. That is when we learn how their hearts were, how their plans and dreams were forming and changing. I knew them. I was part of their lives.

Bedtime is precious even if it gets briefer as they age. I would not trade that for anything.

So rather than seeing all that h missed (and feeling angry about it, on my behalf and on the theirs)

I try hard to focus on what I gained. It's so precious. And I won't ever get it again. They are out of the house now.

Do you relate?

The d's visited last weekend, for a family wedding. It's the first time they saw my new condo and we walked to a restaurant since I'm next to the subway and I am quite the urban hipster now

it's 1/3 the size of the house they grew up in. But I'm okay with that.

Not sure if you can grab what I'm saying in this^^^ b/c I'm a few years ahead in terms of the kids ages. Just, don't give all that time away, okay?

There has to be a way you can WRITE out their schedule. No commentary needed. No righteous anger at your h. It's not about being right. In most situations that does not matter. The way something is presented in our relationships is usually more important than the content of the presentation.

Let him face the consequences of canceling one of their activities.

In fact there is a software program people talk about that allows the parents to work things out on their computers, without having to discuss every single event or activity.




So I either stifle the anger and work thru it with my IC for the betterment of my family.


Correct.

Or I put up boundaries and say no. This needs to be done half. I am tired of always being the one parent that is always there for the kids.


Well, in a word, "tough". You are the one who is there. You don't get to bail out b/c you think that's fairer to you. Parenting is not about what is fairer to you.

The kids don't get a say in any of this. They did not get what they wanted in their family or their parent's marriage. But they are working thru it. And you are helping them with that. And that is what it is.

Setting boundaries with your h - I wish it was about something other than time with the kids. I worry that your kids may t feel you are projecting the "no YOU take them, not me!"
Food for thought.


I love my kids. But he can't just take the kids only when it's convenient for him.


Well yes he can. He has and many many parents do.

FWIW, not every party or activity must be attended. Some would argue our kids have no free time anymore.

You need a schedule - i would just present it online or in writing on a calendar & say "I am able to transport on the following days. Please review this & let me know which days you'll do X."

If he says no or whatever, he won't get custody, which means he will pay you more in support, correct?

(thats how it is here).. Document. Make no threats & no blurting out in anger,

Things will evolve, what you all do now is not going ti be written in stone b/c a month goes by & you are doing more than he is.

Lose the scorecard or be grateful you get the kids this much. (Sorry Hen - but Most moms are sad they have to split the kids up.)

Yes I am bitter about this part.

How is that for You?

Because I always thought he was better then this. And again I know I can't control his actions. But did he really think he could just leave and not have any responsibility?


That is not how HE sees it. He will say you gave him no choice, or he's worn out from all the constant criticism and all the harassing and conflict and you b1tching at him, etc.

and you are projecting your views & values onto him. So you cannot grasp his choices and so, That will baffle you.

He does not handle conflict your way, & you don't hold your tongue the way you want to. You need to focus on what you CAN control and let go of the rest.

Hen, let go of the rest. You will make yourself sick otherwise. Believe me, I know.

I am in the middle of the financial crap and it is horrific and my h and I are very far apart on numbers. Yeah, he's baffling me and making me nuts and I literally feel sick at times.
I have said nothing to him. No contact and it is hard as he11. IT takes everything in me not to reach out and blast him.

I always have to think it out and say "25, be real. What do you expect will happen if you tell him he is delusional, and a liar/cheat" etc.?

Will he really slap his forehead and say "You are right! I'm SORRY!"

Nope. He will say it's proof that he is right to have taken all the money (HE worked hard for it!)

and all the rest. The kids not talking to him will be MY fault ("she turned them against me!")

Best not to give any ammo.

That part drives me crazy. And before this set back we were getting along really well. And then he blows up over having to 'ruin' his weekend.

Just let him know what the kids have planned and let him work it out with THEM.

Back off and step back. I know it's hard. My h has not seen the kids in a year.

But I was fired from the mediating wife job. And in some ways, that is a relief.

Hang in there, back off and work more on detachment.

And so will I!

[Henwen]

I have read your sitch and it horrifies me what your H did to you and your kids. I have given the schedule of dance to my H. I typed it out and sent it to him. Yes I guess I just need to let it go. No sense in arguing about it. Because he won't listen. He will just take it as me bitching and arguiing. And she helps in some classes as well on saturday so she can't really miss it. And yes detaching is getting better. Because last night I was trying to fall asleep and I was angry and I refused to let him take away any more peace from my mind. And I read for a bit and then fell asleep. And yes the time I get with my kids. Driving and spending time with them is fantastic. So you are right. His loss not mine. Thank you so much for your advice and help. It is so appreciated.

[Henwen]

So things are just trudging along. And I'm ok with that. I have dropped the arguiing. I just look at my life right now and see the simple happy things. Like my puppy can sleep in my bed (H wouldn't allow that) and if I choose to not put away the laundry I don't have. Or I can stay up until late reading a book. Besides the argument Friday over H not cancelling his weekend plans and not taking D to her dance, things have been calm. He usually keeps his space from me. But today he was leaning over my shoulder looking at something and he was very, very close and it was like old times. I just wanted to sink back into him. But that would have scared him off. So I just remained relaxed and didn't say anything but kept up the convo about the article we were looking at. He did tell me Friday that he believed I never desired him. And that there is no use in pretending I do. And I said I was sorry that he thought that way. But I have always desired him and loved him.he is very insecure and that belief of his frustrated me. He thinks I don't want him because our sex life was lacking. Unfortunately his constant arguments in the past and anger blocked me from loving him the way he wanted. But he of course refuses to see any of his fault in this. No I didn't bring that up with him. I'm just bringing it up here. I simply validated and said that I was sorry he felt that way but I have always loved him. Not too sure how I go about showing him I love him when I am not supposed to show him love lol. So for now I just hold steady the course and be happy. Which I actually am getting to a place that I am happy. And no arguiing. Here is where i usually get impatient. I see the subtle changes and then I get frustrated and start getting insecure and start fighting. So I'm going to change that not do that.