A fresh start? (probably not!)

[CW2017]

previous thread
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2755930&page=1

Hi all
decided to start a new thread on account of the fact that I am in quite a chilled state after a really relaxing holiday where we got on really well, this coming on the back of our 20th anniversary celebrations which was greatly appreciated on the W's part. This all means that (and this is my choice), if things are still going on at work, to be quite honest I am just going to let them get on with it (for now, in the "marathon" context) and wait for any slipups, my daughter now being the main priority (especially as she is having problems at school). So there will be no direct snooping on my part as my mental health is also now of vital importance as I am about to change teams at work, i.e. a new job.

My main questions now are more general. The marriage counselling has continued and we have just finished the sessions where we have talked about our histories, family backgrounds, etc. From now on we have been asked to steer the sessions ourselves. So I would appreciate any advice on which points to raise. I don't think it would serve any purpose to state that I think the affair is still going on (I have previously stated in an earlier session that it would be naive to assume that two people in the workplace would suddenly stop especially as I knew how deep it was, although I couldn't of course state the last bit!).

I am more interested in stating that I am now looking forward to the future. I have made a herculean effort this year (e.g. I now put her needs first in the bedroom, not surprisingly she told the MC that s** had never done anything for her previously, which I now see is the reason for its infrequency previously, mind you that was still a shock!). I want to guard against repeat episodes and establish if I did indeed contribute to my W choosing an affair due to her having lost respect for me, I think that really needs to come out into the open. Any other potential questions would be much appreciated!

thanks again

PS I should also add that she is going away on a course in a couple of weeks so I will have to assume at this stage that this is legitimate.

[Maika]

Hey CW - I haven't read back up on your sitch, but just from this post, is the A still going on? If it is, how are you planning on dealing with that in MC? I know the wisdom here is that if an A is going on, forget about MC.

[CW2017]

Hi Maika
in answer to your question I have no idea if it is going on to the extent that it was. I can easily find out at a later date through my "methods" but I choose not to at this stage as I am feeling quite OK in myself at the moment and "I come first" of course. I am absolutely availed of the forum's views of MC and know there could be lip service being paid on the W's part. The discussions have been pretty good up until now but the next ones might be even more illuminating. Is she has taken it underground she probably feels she is dealing with MC as "my old wife" whilst holding back. That is why I would appreciate advice on the forum on ways to "tease" this information out.

[AnotherStander]

CW, try not to start a new thread until your old one hits 10 pages. It's easier for us to keep track of sitches when we can go back and read previous posts, so the fewer threads the better!

So I would appreciate any advice on which points to raise.

I read back through your first thread, please advise if this summary is correct:

1. Your W engaged in an A.
2. You confronted her and threatened D.
3. A week later she expressed remorse and wanted to work on things.
4. She continues to secretly correspond with OM.
5. She refuses to quit the job where she works with OM.
6. The two of you started MC.

If that is correct, a key ingredient to recon seems to be missing, and that is your W expressing in clear terms that she is done with OM and committed to working on the M. I get the sense she's just doing some cake-eating and isn't really committed to working on things. Was there some convo along those lines that you just didn't bother to post about? Is not, then why did you start MC with her?

I don't think it would serve any purpose to state that I think the affair is still going on

If you think the A is still going on then whether it is or not, there's a huge trust issue there that needs to be resolved if you ever hope to start piecing. Seems like this is the elephant in the room that everyone is dancing around. Need to get that out there for discussion before the MC goes much further.

[CW2017]

Sorry about the break in threads! Strangely enough I used the "elephant in the room" phrase in one of the earlier sessions. Everything you stated is correct. During the confrontation she readily agreed to MC. In the week or so after the confrontation she stated she would do anything for the MR including the affair, stating that she had made a huge mistake. But as Sandie told me, for them to continue to work together is not healthy for the MR. So, yes, I think that major conversation will have to be dealt with ASAP.

thanks

[CW2017]

Hi
just a quick update on today's MC session. We have been "discharged" as the MC thinks we are now in a pretty good place. Strangely enough my W asked me last night if there was any need to continue as I was alright about things (and so was she). Based on the usual great advice here I ensured that the "elephant in the room" topic was mentioned especially as the MC said it should be addressed as it seemed that we might be rug sweeping the topic at home. I said I had not mentioned it since that period of time after confronting (when the topic would raise its head from time to time) because I had assumed that she would deal with this issue herself as we were making a go of things (anything else on my part could have been viewed as controlling?). My W said both she and the OM had tried to keep things "neutral" and it had been easier recently as she has been snowed under with work and they had both been on vacation at different times. The good thing was the MC (and she has been extremely good throughout the sessions) made sure we brought everything out into the open and particularly on the subject of trust I stated (rather than "I will never trust her again when she goes to work or goes out socialising") that the trust will come from us being more open with each other.

So on the one hand ending the counselling is the best thing in case the affair is still there, i.e. it is pointless by definition, but on the other it is finishing leaving us definitely at a new level of cooperation and understanding. I openly stated to the MC that I adored my W and she said how much she loved me as well. So she either gets the Oscar or there is something to work on now.

As stated before my mental health now comes first so there will be no more monitoring and I will rely on my gut instincts from now on which unfortunately have served me well to date. It really is up to her now as I said to the MC that the alternatives will not be nice (especially as I have the solicitor in place). She said she will still have to interact with him at work as her work details support his role so she must keep things neutral. So if she has come out of the mist then that just leaves the lust and her insecurity and again time will tell. This thing will of course be eaesier to rationalise if nothing similar has happened in the past. But at the same time one of the first thing she said in the sessions was that she wanted things to go back to what it was before the affair.

Hopefully not to be continued..... (but I certainly intend to participate more fully in the boards here!)

[Lovelyp]

I would encourage you to stop snooping on your wife s phone and I agree with ANotherstander that the basis of a MC is when she ends the affair with the OM. In the mean time you detaching and working on yourself may help her to decide. Detach, concentrate on yourself and your D and give her space and time and let her know that she has to decide what she wants but you hope that she can stop the affair and then you work on MC and deal with any issues. I hope for the best for you and your family

[25yearsmlc]

Hi
just a quick update on today's MC session. We have been "discharged" as the MC thinks we are now in a pretty good place. Strangely enough my W asked me last night if there was any need to continue as I was alright about things (and so was she).


Stopping the MC is one thing, pretending all is well is quite another. My stbx h was selfish, and I did not think it required a divorce. (It probably doesn't, if it's somehow not rampant or somehow balanced).

But my h's sense of entitlement only grew, unchecked, while unspoken grievances festered, then morphed into an unrecognizable distortion of our marital history. This distortion helped him justify long term deceit, and an incredible amount of cognitive dissonance in him. I do not know if he feels remorse now or not, but I think he feels sorry for HIS loss of our children and damaged finances. It's about HIS pain, not the pain he inflicted on others.

Your wife's sense of entitlement is a big problem in your m. IMO you both need IC. You yourself have at least 2 issues, as I see it (and I'm biased, admittedly).

You accepted a marriage in which sexual satisfaction was almost a non issue. I think you said you had occasionally gone a year without sex. That's just not healthy (unless you both openly agree to be roommates). But you described the m as a good one, even though a key element was missing for some time.

For most of us, sexual intimacy is a fundamental ingredient of marriage, not to be shared with anyone else.

So some of this^^ is on you, to be sure. It's not all on your w. I'm sure she felt undesirable and you did say you had gotten out of shape and that you yourself felt undesirable, correct?

Anyhow, the other issue is that your wife deceived & betrayed you. Her behavior was not a one night mistake of caving into temptation, It took some planning. That is on her.

And without some sort of IC or spiritual insight for her (you know, like "W, that's wrong & destructive to your family, so stop it now"), I doubt the chances are high that she will stop the A fully.

BTW, What would SHE lose if you two divorced? Why do you think the OM won't leave his wife?


Based on the usual great advice here I ensured that the "elephant in the room" topic was mentioned especially as the MC said it should be addressed as it seemed that we might be rug sweeping the topic at home. I said I had not mentioned it since that period of time after confronting (when the topic would raise its head from time to time) because I had assumed that she would deal with this issue herself as we were making a go of things (anything else on my part could have been viewed as controlling?).

why would you ^^^^ "assume" she'd "Deal with this issue"?

How is that assumption not the same as "rug sweeping"?

My W said both she and the OM had tried to keep things "neutral" and it had been easier recently as she has been snowed under with work and they had both been on vacation at different times.


um, gosh, I sure am glad "it's recently been easier" for her and OM. WTF???


The good thing was the MC (and she has been extremely good throughout the sessions) made sure we brought everything out into the open and particularly on the subject of trust I stated (rather than "I will never trust her again when she goes to work or goes out socialising") that the trust will come from us being more open with each other.


why the blurry boundaries? What's "more open"???? You don't feel like saying "End the A now"??

Are you afraid the answer will be "no" or that she will lie again?

Then what? I understand not wanting to rock the boat. OMG I do.

Thing is, the boat might be sinking and you cannot bail fast enough to avoid that, if you keep on rowing while the hole gets bigger.

Not to carry the metaphor too far, but I think you are ignoring the patchy cover of the hole, leaking.



So on the one hand ending the counselling is the best thing in case the affair is still there, i.e. it is pointless by definition, but on the other it is finishing leaving us definitely at a new level of cooperation and understanding. I openly stated to the MC that I adored my W and she said how much she loved me as well. So she either gets the Oscar or there is something to work on now.

As stated before my mental health now comes first so there will be no more monitoring and I will rely on my gut instincts from now on which unfortunately have served me well to date.

It really is up to her now as I said to the MC that the alternatives will not be nice (especially as I have the solicitor in place). She said she will still have to interact with him at work as her work details support his role so she must keep things neutral.


So if she has come out of the mist then that just leaves the lust and her insecurity and again time will tell. This thing will of course be eaesier to rationalise if nothing similar has happened in the past. But at the same time one of the first thing she said in the sessions was that she wanted things to go back to what it was before the affair.


yes a time machine going back to what things were like BEFORE she betrayed you and you found out, would be lovely. But we don't have one. So her "mistake" is there to be dealt with, and saying this "Just leaves the lust and her insecurity"

is like saying "so it's just the cancer and heart attack, neither of which we are dealing with but which we wish were non existent, like before the diagnosis".

What else is there that is worse, her deep love for OM? I mean, thank God she isn't saying that, yet. But the "lust" you refer to was sorely lacking in the m, so wouldn't you say it's kind of new?

And rather than "insecurity" in her, I detect huge entitlement. It may be true that she did not feel very desired by you. But didn't that go both ways? Did you feel insecure too? Did you cheat?

IMO She does not enjoy "belaboring" the fact that she f--ed up and did a $h1tty thing. She'd prefer going backwards so it's not looked at. Oh, that's nice. I see her point.

Good grief. This^^^ is so familiar...

Hopefully not to be continued..... (but I certainly intend to participate more fully in the boards here!)

I suggest You See an IC and ask about how you can set & enforce boundaries, and how to take the role of leader in your marriage, at least as far as keeping the vows.

Don't tell my feminist friends i said this, b/c I do value partnerships and being teammates, etc.

But there are times we as women want to feel protected by our h's, and that includes being protected from OM's .

We all want to feel desired by our spouses.

(To be sure, most of us like knowing we are attractive to the other sex generally, but we do not need excessive validation or adultery to feel secure in our desirability.)

What are your short term goals? And are you GAL? I sense mostly you talking about what SHE is doing or feeling.

Does this marriage solely rely on how she feels and what she shares with you?

Try hard not to project your own values/moral compass onto your wife. That will leave you baffled and hurt.

If you both had the same values or were operating with the same moral compass, you would not be here.

I'm not saying "give up on the m"! But if there is a chance to restore your m into a solid one,

you must have some level of passion for each other which can absolutely be developed with time and effort.

In the present time, trust is more important than passion, b/c no one feels safe showing their passion for someone whom they do not trust.

Make sense?

[CW2017]

Hi 25yearsmlc
sorry for the delay in replying. And can I just say what a marvellous insight on your part. Just thought I would clarify a couple of points. The only period of time where I "might" have dropped the ball rearding any degree of neglect would have been the "depression years" ('10-'16, beginning with the treble hit of father passing/no job/becoming a first time father in my late 40s, although I should state I was not depressed for the whole of the time, but not having the right job for my previous experience did not help in the latter stages). During the other periods of time where there was no sexual intimacy we were still exceedingly close (telling each other we loved each other multiple times every single day, my complimenting her on her looks/figure, etc. on a continual basis). Looking back I guess I was just incredibly patient and "respectful" (at one point she did say "I was such a patient guy" in a non-patronising way about waiting for her to be ready for that sort of initimacy. Guess I was just used to these rare episodes (e.g. once in a 2 week Caribbean honeymoon). So in essence we have always been "all over each other" but with no outcome in the bedroom.

However, this year has been a revelation. The sex accelerated after BD (I found out it was initially to stop me from being suspicious) then again after I finally found out what she needed "during" and this has been the case ever since (she is continually tired from work so once a week is quite a step forward believe me and I guess it becomes more of an occasion that way). So the bedroom situation is, in a way, perfect now. That was also discussed during the MC sessions so there is no ambiguity there. However, I accept there could be other reasons for our increased activity but at the very least she is getting her needs met in that department so the "passion" element is definitely there now.

In the GAL department, since BD my running activities have accelerated (exclude the obvious pun) and I currently try and fit in 3 X 30 min a week. I have also recently joined the gym at work and now hit the weights hard. My improved physique this year has certainly be noticed by the W so that has to be a positive. On your question of what you think would happen to her if we D'd, I think she would cave in (not that I wouldn't of course) in fact after our big confrontation she said she probably wouldn't sleep that night. An interesting point by yorself about why he wouldn't leave his wife. From what I know of him, despite his reciprocated feelings and actions he is from a "higher class" (the ridiculous system we have in the UK), he has had major house improvements, etc. so I am reckoning they are perfectly (oppositely) matched for an affair, but at the same time if he green lighted both of them leaving their partners that would be a different matter of course.

I have never been insecure in that sense (yet a lot of my friends and colleagues over the years seem to suffer from this) and despite a few tempting offers over the last 27 years I have never succumbed (even when intoxicated). So I guess that's just me (and I accept that my moral compass may not be shared by anyone else).

Thank you again

[CW2017]

Advice from you great people please. What should be the occasion for one-off checking of cell messages? As I have stated previously I am not actively doing this any more and it has done me the world of good. However one of the features of her new phone is an encrypted partition which I noticed has been activated (I did cop a v quick look at her apps menu). Cell messages can't go in there. Think it would have to be in the light of rekindled deep suspicions....