ILYBNILWY part 4

[EastTN]

So. The D is final. But parenting plan is going to mediation.

Judge said the dissolution agreement was valid on its face but asked us to negotiate. She got a little more from my 401k. My L pushed for it. It wasn't a lot of money (relatively speaking) so I agreed. Then XW wanted all of my appliances. Not just my washer dryer but my stove and refrigerator and dishwasher and she wanted my lawnmower. I finally said "it sounds like the judge will make you live with he original agreement. You're already getting more than that with the 401k. If you keep being unreasonable then I'll take my chances with the judge." Even her L told her to accept that she had no right to what she wanted and to be happy that she got more. Then she wanted me to keep paying for her health insurance. My L (surprisingly) very gently explained to her that it didn't work that way and that she could try healthcare.gov

As far as parenting goes she doesn't just want more time. She wants to take primary residential parent. Her cross complaint for divorce makes it clear that she is the natural parent and I am the adoptive parent. That was pretty cold.

I knew she was going to do what she did. Didn't make it hurt less.

[Holding]

East, I'm sorry man.

I mean, I'm glad the D is final, but I'm sorry you still have more fighting to do for D6. Did you not know the parenting plan would be going to mediation before today? What changed?

[EastTN]

It could have gone either way, I think. The judge chose to allow it to go to mediation instead of looking at the proposed plan on the merits.

I can see that my life isn't going to get much easier. Drama. Yay. XW yelled at D because D was playing her recorder for her during their phone time, and she wanted to talk instead. Apparently, D got pissed off and hung up on her. So she called back, and insisted that D come to talk to me in the other room about what she had done. D just started saying she was tired and wanted to go to sleep. and XW told her she had to talk. D left the room leaving me to talk to XW.

XW started complaining that D was tired when she called. I pointed out that I sent a text the other night asking if she should call earlier, and she didn't bother to respond. Her response to that was that she shouldnt have to, because we'd had a conversation a couple of months ago. She started yelling, D in the other room started crying, and I told XW to STOP arguing in front of D. That if we had to have this conversation, take it to text. No dice, because "I don't have anything to say to you."

I told XW that I raised D not wanting to talk to her with my C, and how I didn't like being put in the position of telling D she HAD to talk to her mother. What to do here? C said that sometimes D should be allowed to simply not talk to her. XW said this wasn't acceptable!

I won't quote the text messages. Suffice to say they're six different kinds of crazy.

This [censored]. This woman is not stable. This woman is not rational. This woman wants to be D's primary caretaker!

[Vapo]

So, don't let her. Not without a fight...

[cadence]

Sorry East. There are some books about there about custody with a high conflict ex. Just search those terms.

Mediation works great when you have two reasonable people who are at a rare disagreement and need to work toward compromise. It does not work great when one party is high conflict, because the crucial ingredient (a reasonable person) is missing.

The mediator's job is to move the two of you toward the middle and they only care about compromise. They're not going to tell either party they're unreasonable, they're going to take what they're given and pressure it to a middle ground. The unreasonable person tends to ask for the sun, moon, and stars, and things like weekly inspections of your home. So you're then supposed to give her half the moon, stars, and monthly inspections of your home, in the name of compromise. And thus you are then further victimized by this unstable high conflict person until your daughter is the age of majority.

Consider having your L at mediation. It's going to be the "but I want all of his appliances that I have no right to" and "but I want him to pay for my health insurance" all over again but in matters of custody. Stand tall. If you agree to a high conflict person's unreasonable terms, you will subject yourself to years of emotional vampirism, leaving you unable to be a proper partner (to whomever you are with) and father to D.

Do not fall victim to the "but I'm the real parent" BS. Adoption does not make you a lesser parent. Would you ever look to a couple who adopted because they couldn't conceive and tell them they weren't full parents? No. It's the same for you. Unfortunately, you're dealing with a vengeful person who wants to take from you to fill up the empty black hole inside of herself, which will never be filled. Don't let her do that. Compromise only on matters you find reasonable. If something is outrageous to begin with, put your foot down and do not feel pressured to compromise on it.

Also, be very careful about the decision making pieces of any plan. Do not leave anything loosey-goosey about "parents will decide as arises", because you are signing yourself up for h*ll. Get strict specific terms that don't require conversation because you're starting to see that the two of you aren't going to be able to co-parent. It's looking like parallel parenting is going to be the way to go, since that cuts down on the amount of conflict D has to witness, and it allows you to be a full emotionally-present father to her.

Also, be careful about measures about how conflicts will be resolved. When H's ex found out I moved in, suddenly everything was a problem. She actually wanted to send their D to a boarding school. (That's right, she so wanted her D away from any chance of developing a positive relationship with me, that she was willing to send her away) H said "no" and then his ex said "looks like we can't come to an agreement" and made him go to mediation to "resolve the conflict."

There was no conflict aside from what she'd spun up. She was also rewarded by being able to be in a room with him. He'd cut that off since she used face to face and phone conversations to bully him. So he asked the mediator to put them in two rooms with the mediator going back and forth, to make sure she wasn't rewarded. He also used the opportunity to get a provision in the agreement that mediation could be used to resolve disputes, but the person requesting mediation had to pay for both person's fees. He was willing to do that if something was important enough, and it discouraged her from using mediation to bully him into whatever conflict she'd spun out of thin air.

Educate yourself about high conflict exes and sharing custody. H did not, and it resulted in years of her bullying him. I insisted on some healthy boundaries with his ex when I was with him, and because she hadn't had to deal with those before, she became on a mission to destroy him. Had he not tried to wean her off of him, and rather set solid boundaries, he'd have reached peace a great deal earlier in his life.

Watching from the outside in, I don't think that parents who have an ex who is high conflict and emotionally/verbally abusive realize the toll it takes on their spirit. It's normal to them. But it's not normal to everyone else. D needs you to be present and not living a life of being victimized by crazy. Educate yourself and stand up for yourself and do not feel pressured to compromise on ludicrous things your ex will demand at mediation.

[Holding]

Thanks for sharing that, Cadence. My next step is mediation, and I highly suspect my STBXW has BPD. So this was good advice for me as well.

[EastTN]

So, when we were in court, the judge said "go to mediation" and in the interim, we should continue to follow the status quo (which was the parenting plan we'd previously agreed to). XW asked the judge to give her that Sunday, and the judge said "talk to him about it." I had no problem with her having that Sunday, and I wanted to take D to the company picnic at the zoo, so we traded.

Now she says she wants EVERY Sunday (I get four of those every three months). I say I'm not giving up weekend time, I don't GET a lot of it as it is, so she proposes that I could get her for four hours on a Friday and she'll get her for four hours on Sunday every weekend I have her. I don't like this. It means I never, EVER get a full weekend, I have to run around a lot to make it happen (for the trade we did, I met her halfway for her day. On the zoo day, she made me drive an extra 15 miles each way for pickup AND drop off). At the same time, I'm sympathetic to her going two weeks without seeing D.

Of course, she CAN see her in the interim (during the week) she just usually chooses not to. And she doesn't spend the time she HAS with her. I've been told by three people now (all of them related to XW in some way and not me) that XMIL takes care of D while she's with XW, and not XW. So why am I worried about this? The judge DID tell us to be flexible but he didn't tell me to be a doormat.

XW wanted to get D after school yesterday. She's allowed to under the plan (I put in there that she could see her EVERY day after school, she just has to give me 24 hours notice). She made plans with D on Monday, but never bothered to talk to me about it. Yesterday on the way to school, she confirmed those plans with D. I sent her a text saying to remember that she's supposed to give let me know the day before, and asking what time she was picking up/dropping off. She stated she did on Monday. I asked her to put it in text, so all three of us can be on the same page. Her response was, "too many rules with you. So, what, I can't have her now?" I said of course she could have her, and the drama starts. "That's fine, I won't get her" stuff like that. It's like dealing with a child. All I'm trying to figure out is "what time are you picking her up, and what time are you dropping her off" and she's just picking fights. I'm disgusted.

It also seems that XW is looking at mediation as some kind of weapon, so I think cadence hit the nail on the head as to what she's going to try to do. Thanks for that cadence. Id you hadn't posted that, I'd probably be wondering what the heck she could possible be thinking.

[AnotherStander]

Sorry you're going through this misery East! Sounds like you're handling it well though!

so she proposes that I could get her for four hours on a Friday and she'll get her for four hours on Sunday every weekend I have her.

Yeah that's just cray-cray. You'd spend all your time driving around, picking up and dropping off.

At the same time, I'm sympathetic to her going two weeks without seeing D.

It is indeed, but then you DO allow her to see D any weeknight as well with proper notice so I'd say you're being more than fair on that.

I've been told by three people now (all of them related to XW in some way and not me) that XMIL takes care of D while she's with XW, and not XW. So why am I worried about this? The judge DID tell us to be flexible but he didn't tell me to be a doormat.

What she does with D on her time is her business unfortunately (barring abuse or neglect). That's part of divorce is you each go your separate ways and your lives are your own. If she's dumping D on the in-laws then that's totally within her rights. That is not you being a doormat, it's out of your control.

I asked her to put it in text, so all three of us can be on the same page. Her response was, "too many rules with you. So, what, I can't have her now?" I said of course she could have her, and the drama starts. "That's fine, I won't get her" stuff like that.

Your request was completely reasonable. If she wants to get all passive/aggressive then that's her problem, not yours. XW and I have been doing this for over 5 years and it can get confusing sometimes. We both agreed early on to communicate via text whenever something is changing from the norm, so that we both have a written reference to look back at as a reminder. It's easier now that the two D's are grown up and moved out as we're only coordinating on S now. But when it was all 3 kids, it was quite the juggling act. Eventually you and your XW will get into a routine and it will get much easier, but early on you're probably going to have to remind your W several times what the agreement is and why she needs to stick to it.

Dealing with a high conflict XW like yours has got to be a huge headache, my heart goes out to you! Going through all of this is bad enough without that extra aggravation.

[cadence]

I don't like this. It means I never, EVER get a full weekend, I have to run around a lot to make it happen (for the trade we did, I met her halfway for her day. On the zoo day, she made me drive an extra 15 miles each way for pickup AND drop off).

I agree with you. That's insane.

Remember that ultimately the plan has to benefit D. Extra pointless running around is disruptive to her and doesn't allow her to settle in anywhere.

I would not split weekends like this. Your reasoning is: You want full weekends with D and it's too much transition for her. (And of course you'd like full weekends on your own, but this is not part of your reasoning why you do not like the Crazy Weekend Split Schedule, or XW will attack. Keep the focus on D and your time with D.)

Remember, you are one of two parents with equal say. The next 12 years will be XW proposing something to introduce chaos and you having to react to it. Keep your cool and remember that you are not subordinate to XW just because she sets the environment that you are accountable to her. Her wishes do not override your wishes. You can say "no."

I am not surprised that you compromised and gave into something sensible (one Sunday) and she then took your good will, spit on it, and started demanding more. You give an inch and she'll try to take a mile. It's going to be important for your sanity to stick to the plan. There is exactly one parent here who feels empathy and wants to help the other out, and that is you. This sentiment will never be returned your way. The custody order is your protection and, if a judge signs off on it, there is zero guilt in sticking to it and not granting extras. Someone who is an expert in child welfare has said that D will suffer no negative effects if both parents stick to that plan, so do not feel guilty for saying "No, we will stick to the custody order."

I am guessing when you were married to her you did a great deal of giving her what she wanted to avoid an argument. You must start resisting this temptation, for your sake, for your relationship's sake, and so you can be the father that D needs. She will not learn helpful lessons about behavior if she watches XW histrionics successfully modify your behavior to what she wants from you. Remember D in all of this; you have to be strong for her. You have to become okay with XW being mad at you. That's her issue now.

I say the above with recognition that you're doing well with emotional boundaries. It's a reminder, not an indication that you're doing poorly. Now we've just got to get you to stop trying to be a "nice guy" and saying that D will benefit from whatever extras you give XW. To my eyes, everything starts a new argument and conflict is bad for D and takes away the emotional reserves you have to be a good dad to her. You want to reduce opportunities for conflict, and with a high conflict ex, that means reducing communication and strict adherence to the schedule.

Maybe in a few years, after XW has begun to accept that you have rights too, you can experiment with granting extras. It would be nice if the two of you could be low conflict and shuffle things around, but it doesn't look like that is currently going to do anything but introduce more problems.

XW wanted to get D after school yesterday. She's allowed to under the plan (I put in there that she could see her EVERY day after school, she just has to give me 24 hours notice).

While I agree with the idea that XW should be able to see D on a weeknight when there are long stretches without her, you will come to regret this loosey-goosey language. How about something stating during the week when the parent does not have the child, the other parent can opt to pick D up after school on Wednesdays and bring her back to the custodial parent by 8pm. And to notify the other parent if they will NOT be taking this time, so plans can be made to get D.

That way XW still gets to see her, but it's formalized and you're not apt to have to upend your life and plans for XW, who will want to keep you in a state of uncertainty and chaos. Plus, that will mean you get to see D on Wednesdays if there are stretches where you don't have her during the week. It's like a few hours of check-in, but not overly disruptive to the schedule. It also allows D some predictability, which is the most important thing. She will be able to picture where she'll be doing her homework that night.

I worry you're being "nice" to XW, but really you should be thinking in terms of how disruptive XW can then be, and also the impact on D. D needs stability and predictability. Balance transitions with the ability to spend quality time with both parents. What makes things easier on the parents is not necessarily the same experience for D, especially if she has a personality where she gets anxious with unpredictability.

. I asked her to put it in text, so all three of us can be on the same page. Her response was, "too many rules with you. So, what, I can't have her now?" I said of course she could have her, and the drama starts.

And this is your life if you leave the plan open as you have it. Nail it down to one day. Do not make XW come to you for permission. Instead, turn it the other way and have her take her on Wednesdays, but she has to give you a heads up if she's not able to use that time. This is how you get less conflict for D to potentially witness and the best chance for non-agitated emotionally-present parents for D.

Remember D. What XW wants is not necessarily best for D. Untie those two concepts, because it's looking like your XW has "starting arguments with East" as a very high priority on her list, and that is very bad for D.

It also seems that XW is looking at mediation as some kind of weapon, so I think cadence hit the nail on the head as to what she's going to try to do. Thanks for that cadence. Id you hadn't posted that, I'd probably be wondering what the heck she could possible be thinking.

You're welcome. I'm not happy that I have had this experience with a high conflict ex, but at least I can help others to know what's coming. Once you know that habits, you become disturbed that it seems like they pass around an instruction manual on how to cause chaos and conflict.

Remember - you do not have to agree to anything in mediation, but you will be pressured to do so by the mediator. it is so important for you to evaluate requests and decide if they are reasonable. If so, consider them. If not, do not move toward the middle.

You've got a high conflict ex and she will ask for the moon, and then you'll be pressured to give halfway to the moon. But no one should be asking you to go toward the moon in the first place. No one should be asking you to make a less formal plan. If they do, ask yourself "why". Many times, a more formal plan is best for D, both in matters of predictability, stability, and less conflict between her parents.

XW will want to remove any boundaries that allow you to live a peaceful existence free from her web. You will regret taking down boundaries. It will impact you, your ability to be a good dad to D, and any relationships and relationship partners to come. It will cause you years of stress and anxiety.

You have to remember that and don't drink anyone's kool-aid that your future should be at the whims of XW because of "parenting". Think what is best for you and what is best for D. Any empathy for XW will be like a glass of water poured into a strong wind gust. It will never come back your way, and if it does, you're going to get soaked.

I hope this was helpful.

[EastTN]

Today, my daughter told me that someone told her I wasn't really her father.