Book Poll

[NotATLDave]

Excellent Scott...though it's depressing and too familiar. I could say that last year was 4 times, year before was 3 times, year before was 3 times. OUch. I guess were doing better now. It's up to something like 7 since Jan and I'm not really sure.

I've been trying to determine how to count joint-self-pleasuring, handjobs and other forms of non-intercourse. I do count those as ML now. In my calendar, I'm tracking the "balance" too.

One of the things I would like to track is how well I (think) I did with being a good husband and dad, the amount of praise I issue, and the times when I'm a pill. It's unrealistic amount of work, but I would like to see the corri-lotion...oops, I meant correlation.

[eyesopened]

NOPkins says:

" I am now curious as to the reasons some here have not, in a nice way of course, demanded that your spouse read the book. "

IMHO, to demand that the LD spouse read the book may sound like an accusation, that something is wrong with her/him as a person, that she/he is completely responsible for all problems in the marriage. I think it's human nature to balk when you feel forced to do something and to become defensive if you feel like you're being blamed.

In my case, I kept giving my husband relationship books to read convinced that he was to blame for problems in our marriage and that if only he would change, things would be better. First, my presumptions were wrong, I blamed him but was blind to my unkind and unloving behaviors. In TSSM, Michele has a chapter that gives step by step suggestions for approaching your partner and changing the relationship, but I don't believe that demanding that your partner read the book is one of them. I can only speak for myself but if my husband had given me the book (BTW, I'm the one who bought it and read it) and demanded that I read it, I would have been hurt and angry and would have become defensive to the point of listing all the ways I thought he failed as a husband.

I now recognize that most of our problems stemmed from my own benign negligence, trust issues, and some active unkindness; but that's a very recent realization for me. I think that if my husband had come to me, without being accusatory or demanding or angry, and simply expressed how he felt unloved and rejected by me, I would have heard him and made my changes earlier. He's not the type to express his feelings verbally, and I heard him through some of the men on this board as they expressed their frustration and pain.

Going back to getting somebody to read a book you want, the only book I was able to persuade my husband to read was Willard Harley's His Needs, Her Needs. I persuaded him to read that by explaining that I'd read it, found it to be persuasive, and realized that I hadn't met my husband's needs if they were what I thought they were. I asked him to read the book to identify his 5 top emotional needs and to help me meet them. The truth, however, is that I was convinced he wasn't meeting MY needs, that I was in fact meeting HIS needs, and I really wanted him to read the book so that HE would see that HE wasn't meeting MY top 5 emotional needs (which I had listed in order for him) . He read the book and through a series of emails said that he felt he was trying to meet my needs but that I wasn't meeting any of his needs. My initial reaction was shock, I couldn't believe that he thought he was meeting my needs and that I wasn't meeting his. But, something unexpected happened. I got past my emotions and reactions and actually heard him and saw things from his perspective. I saw that he was right; he was trying to meet my needs (not necessarily in the way I thought he should although I'd never let him know what I really wanted) and I was often ignoring his needs.

I'm sure there's some lesson here, but I'm not sure what it is. All I know is that our marriage has become much better in the last couple of weeks because I'm the one changing and I'm putting him first finally and going out of my way to meet his emotional needs including lots of physical affection (ML, foot rubs, back rubs, etc.). I've also apologized repeatedly to him (I do feel true remorse over how I treated him and took him for granted). I'm a great believer in TSSM because I'm seeing what Michele said about how changes made by one spouse can change the entire marriage. The more I make myself available to him and put him first, the more he's doing things I've been wanting. But, even if he didn't, I'd still do what I'm doing now simply because it's the right and loving thing to do, and for me to go back to my old ways would be to knowingly be unloving and unkind.

I hope some of this makes sense. TSSM is a great book, and Michele's premise that one spouse can create change for the better in a marriage is right in our case. My husband's much happier and more relaxed, and he gives me lots of positive reinforcement for the changes I'm making. I also feel more comfortable telling him what I really like. I think most LD spouses would benefit from reading TSSM (and perhaps Harley's His Needs, Her Needs), but I don't know how the HD spouse can effectively persuade the LD spouse to read the book with an open mind.

Michelle (who just finished doing taxes and thinks the IRS, or whoever makes up the tax regulations, is full of sadists)

[NotATLDave]

Whoa Folks,

I'm freaking out. I just (finally) read the first 2 chapters of David Schnarch's "Passionate Marriage" and OMG if this doesn't completely make sense WAY beyond anything I've read. ALL of the revelations that I have made lately along with ALL my Ws observations of our R are being clarified and confirmed by this. Once again, I'm taking some very hard medicine with this because I now see myself being overly active in trying to "emotionally fuse" with W. Sounds nice right? WRONG!!!! Denying autonomy for the sake of a relationship is destructive. This completely makes sense now but it's too hard to explain here. Everyone on this board needs to try to read this in a very thoughtful way and look inward, with open eyes as they do. This was recommended by my C and she says that most of the really good results are coming from this philosophy.

Anyway, I told my W I wouldn't subject her to anymore books (after SSM) BUT, I will absolutely do anything in the world to get her to read this one. Don't get me wrong. It is a tremendously difficult read and the key points seem to spontaneously happen on every page.

Here's one "star" quote....

"Giving up your individuality to be together is as defeating in the long run as giving up your relationship to maintain your individuality"

I've put a star next to about 20 others like this.

I cannot say enough good things about this book. My W isn't sure what her "issues" are right now despite the efforts I'm making. She seems like Corri was 2 months ago. Hmmm, wait a minute...didn't Corri read this the other night? Isn't she feeling "frisky" now. I see another Corri-lation.

Actually if there ever was a book that could "break through" an LDs hang-ups, I think it's this one.

[NOPkins]

Hi, michlynn.

I think maybe you missed the "in a nice way" part. Your approach toward getting your spouse to read anything is up to you. My point is that you have to make something happen. There is no magic, and no way to automagically get someone else to do what you want. In my relationship, I said something to my wife like - "I would really appreciate your reading this book. Parts of it perfectly describe me". Honestly, I probably wasn't that nice, but we were pretty far gone.

I don't think that a HD spouse necessarily has to read the book if the LD spouse is working on the solution, for obvious reasons. I do think it would be a good idea for them to read it regardless.

You can't use SSM or any other book as a hammer, but you certainly do have to press for change in most troubled relationships. In my opinion, most troubled relationships have two guilty parties, at least in part. So it really doesn't matter who stirs things up, as long as the outcome is positive.

I am NOT saying that the end justifies the means, rather that common sense should be brought to bear. In my relationship, I was the one demanding change. Not surprisingly, I changed as much as, or possibly more than my wife.

My point in my previous posts has a simple premise, very similar to "just do it". Any change in a primarily static system requires input. In a relationship, that input is in the form of some type of action.

In your situation, you are the one that has recognized a need and taken action. I was the one that did it in my relationship. Michele's book was the catalyst.

All the best
-NOPkins-

[Corri]

AD:

YES!!!!!!

Anyway, I told my W I wouldn't subject her to anymore books (after SSM) BUT, I will absolutely do anything in the world to get her to read this one.

OMG, I said nearly the same thing to my H!! But I have to say from an LD perspective, I don't know if I would have been as open to The Passionate Marriage book if I had not read Michele's book first. Although, you could read PM and THEN read SSM, and I think there'd be the same kind of result.

Like AD said, it is a VERY deep read, but I have found SO MUCH in this book that is helping me with ML to my H. I'm like you, AD, understanding is hitting me over the head all over the place with this book. As a matter of fact, last night my H and I had the BEST conversation about sex... honest, open... I didn't try to dodge anything uncomfortable, like I have done in the past, and I realize he is WAY more sexually mature than I am... but he is as guilty of emotional 'fusing' as I am (and I so hate to admit that I do that, but I do), so at least now I know I have not been CRAZY when I think I've been picking up on his vibes...

Anyway, a nice little tidbit for any of you HDs with LD spouses who say they are willing to work on ML. The book says, and I have definitely found this to be true, that instead of just 'diving in,' lay for awhile just hugging one another. LDs tend to be full of performance anxiety, too. No, I'm not kidding. They WANT to feel physical desire, they are WAITING for their bodies to kick in, and when they do not immediately do that, it causes anxiety, which in turn makes it harder to respond.

The author suggests that if this is the case, the LD should BEGIN, by spending some time just leisurely touching their spouse in whatever manner MOVES THEM. Touching your spouse, massaging them, using your mouth, your hands, whatever, is its own aphrodisiac (sp?), and gets the waters flowing on its own accord.

Well, I could just go on and on here, but like Dave says, you really need to get the book for yourselves.

Dave, can you explain the differences yet? CeMar is kind of on to it, too, but not completely...

Corri

[NotATLDave]

Corri:

Dave, can you explain the differences yet? CeMar is kind of on to it, too, but not completely...

Referring to "doing", "being done", and "f*cking"?

I haven't gotten that far in the book yet though I scanned a little bit of that section. I'll read it for real tonight. It's one of those sections that you have to really look past your societal influences to understand. It makes some sense but I haven't put it together yet.

The most significant thing for me to see was the "differentiation" vs. "fusing". I'm a "fuser". My W is a "differentiator" with too much lean towards "autonomy". She lacks the "closeness" and the ability to get "close". It makes complete sense but we both have some work to do.

[CeMar]

Corri:

I would give ANYTHING for my wife to jump into bed and start touching me. I would sell my soul for this. It seems that many of the solutions involve consentrating on the affection and not the sex, but what do you do with a women that wants neither? Her excuse, she is just not a touchy feely person.

[Corri]

CeMar:

I would give ANYTHING for my wife to jump into bed and start touching me. I would sell my soul for this.

Okay. Consider your soul bought and paid for. As the new owner of your soul, here is what I'd like you to do with it.

Face that masturbating in bed with your wife is extremely hostile and does not foster trust. If you can accept that and own it, we can move on to step two.

You cannot give ANYTHING to have your wife touch you, because ANYTHING is not clearly defined. It's you waiting for the magic answer to appear. It won't.

So if you are willing to give ANYTHING, you must now give something very specific. Give her your vulnerability and your trust. If you cannot do this, you cannot ask for ANYTHING, because now you have SOMETHING. It is up to you what you do with that SOMETHING.

You cannot ask from your wife that which you are not willing to give. And trust me when I tell you that if the two of you do not have trust between you, you will never break free of the emotional gridlock you have found yourselves in.

Now, it may feel at first like she has taken your vulnerability and trust and thrown it down to the ground and stomped all over it... but here is the kicker. You cannot withdraw. As the owner of your soul now, I command it.

Yes, you must go back into the fray, bloody, broken and torn and offer it up again. I say this because you have to give her the opportunity to understand that what you are offering is in good faith, not another trick to get something from her. You must continue to give this, without asking anything in return.

At some point, you will either crack her shell, and she will wake up, or a 'knowing' will enter your soul, and you will move on without guilt.

You are not in an all or nothing scenario, as much as it feels like it. You and your wife have paralyzed one another into immobility. Someone has to let go first. It takes an enormous amount of courage, and if you can find it in yourself to risk ALL of yourself, you have the perfect opportunity to reap great reward.

If you cannot do this, no biggie. You will stay as you are now, looking for the elusive ANYTHING to solve your problem.

This is a simple matter of choice, CeMar. I'm not saying it isn't scarey, but if you need motivation, look at your mentor, Jesus. You think He wasn't scared? You speak of your faith all the time. But faith is not a dormant thing, a certificate to hang on your wall and polish. It is an active state of being. Faith is facing the fears that appear to be in front of you, and moving through them despite your internal resistance. It is the 'walking through hell,' not to stay in torment forever, but to find your way OUT. Hell is not something to end, it is something to move through.

You, my friend, are in hell right now. You can choose to stay in it, or you can choose to move out of it. If you choose to move out of it, it takes courage, faith, hope, and love. All of that is combined into the deepest essence of you, the most vulnerable but most valuable part of you.

To keep it inside of you is to stay in hell. Take it and GIVE it to your wife, and keep giving it to her until she understands that you are asking NOTHING of her. When she understands that, you can help her get out of hell, too.

Corri

[NotATLDave]

CeMar,

I would give ANYTHING for my wife to jump into bed and start touching me. I would sell my soul for t

I'm going to simplify what Corri said....

You don't have the ability to sell your soul because you you've given your W joint custody of it. The minute you reclaim your piece that she's responsible for, your marriage will change. I just learned this.

"WTF Dave?...I don't know what you mean". My W was finally honest with me and said I was giving her too much "ownership" of my happiness and that it sucked. She wants a guy who is independently happy. It's funny because I didn't "see" what she was "truly" saying until last night. The "choose happiness" thing she was doing to me and the "go ride your bike" were pleas to "develop my own identity, be happy within it, then seduce me with your self esteem and strength". I made up the last part but I'm pretty certain that when women say that "confidence" is sexy, that's what they mean. That's why I've been having trouble...I've learned to "seem" confident in bars and it has drawn women to me. My W knows the "real me" which she feels requires "nurturing" like a child. Now that I think about it, "Care and Feeding of your Husband" is a really sh!tty title because it connotes a "parent-child" relationship. Oh man, I'm hanging it out there one more time....f*ck Dr. Laura. She is a self-promoting fruit loop. Isn't it funny how Schnarch is actually working for so many of us here but you would never see him on Oprah because he couldn't explain this stuff to the masses in a 15 minute segment.

[PBH]

Thanks Tim...as for LD HD hmmmm. After his years of increasing alcohol he ended up with erectile dysfunction. Sober since 6/03 and goes to AA usually 3-4 times a week.(you can check my other posts for more background)and finally went to urologist in 9/03, got Viagara, it does work, but he feels he needs to sleep in other bedroom "to get his proper rest, listen to sports radio to fall asleep to" and yes to watch porn, use the vibrator and go to sleep. The rare times we sleep together are only on his days off (not all of them). I'm just tired of feeling like a roommate instead of a wife. When we got married 9 yrs ago we were both HD; guess I'm the leftover. Thanks for listening. PBH