Still here. Still not detached...

[Kylo]

Re: Divorce Care. There's a good chance they won't even recite a bible verse. The classes at my church are usually just classes with a prayer at the beginning or end.

I hear you on the support from family and friends. Sometimes I will be somewhere and I'm thinking "you know my wife wants to leave me right?", but I check myself quickly.

It is uncomfortable for them, and many of them don't know what to do. I know I'm just not a very thoughtful person. I miss all kinds of opportunities to show love; it just doesn't occur to me at the time. And in general, people don't want to talk about depressing, hard subjects. If you ask a specific question on the subject, it can get the convo rolling.

OTOH, you do find out that the number of people who would actually do something for you isn't that large, and I feel that these are the people that make life worth living. That is also the reason why losing the W is painful; you thought she was one of those people.

[Chris73]

Thanks everyone for all the good advice.

...you do find out that the number of people who would actually do something for you isn't that large, and I feel that these are the people that make life worth living. That is also the reason why losing the W is painful; you thought she was one of those people.

This is probably the single biggest obstacle in my attempt to detach. W and I used to talk about everything. She was the first person I thought of talking to whenever ANYTHING happened in my life...

I hope to God you did not reveal your emotions and judgments to the kids in any way.

No, I never disparage my W to our kids but I'm sure they've noticed my irritated and sullen moods in the past. I'm trying to work on that.

Unless you reasonably and sincerely believe the kids are endangered, you have to back off. It will NEVER HELP YOU to criticize her mothering. I am positive of that.

I read you loud and clear. Right now I'm hung up on the fact that our parenting isn't consistent. The kids receive a mixed message because I feel like my W is too lax with the rules we've all agreed to. When we finally have 2 separate residences this will be much easier to handle.

Do you want to be "right" or do you want to save your m?

This is the $64K question! (showing my age...)

I don't have an answer to this because lately I've been feeling like I don't want to reconcile. The other night while drifting off to sleep I had a bit of an epiphany in which I couldn't ever see our relationship recovering from this. I know that this feeling won't last forever, but when I ask myself the question, "What would it take...?" I can't come up with an answer. So much damage has been done.

Regardless, the desire to be "right" is definitely a strong one. I'm forced to participate in this divorce as if I agree with it and it's not fair. But I know "fair" doesn't really matter. And the anger and I resentment I harbor toward my W permeates throughout all other aspects of my life. I know it has to stop because the only one who suffers from this anger is me.

One day at a time I suppose...

[25yearsmlc]

I hope to God you did not reveal your emotions and judgments to the kids in any way.

No, I never disparage my W to our kids but I'm sure they've noticed my irritated and sullen moods in the past. I'm trying to work on that.


well, to put it bluntly, you CAN work on that, not just "try". Be upbeat around your kids AND your w. IF you two divorce you can tell your kids how you feel and let them see you work through the process AND heal.

Someday they will face setbacks or heartbreak. They need to know their pain is not eternal or fatal. You can model this.

If there is a reconciliation, you will model forgiveness and compassion and loyalty and commitment from both of you.

Unless you reasonably and sincerely believe the kids are endangered, you have to back off. It will NEVER HELP YOU to criticize her mothering. I am positive of that.

I read you loud and clear. Right now I'm hung up on the fact that our parenting isn't consistent. The kids receive a mixed message because I feel like my W is too lax with the rules we've all agreed to. When we finally have 2 separate residences this will be much easier to handle.


Maybe your w feels you imposed the "agreed" upon rules. And maybe she thinks you are too rigid, or just wants to modify them, or maybe we just don't know. .

Do you want to be "right" or do you want to save your m?

This is the $64K question! (showing my age...)


My question to you was not the one you thought it was (but I'll address yours in a minute).

I meant to show you that being "right" is usually Not important at all. It's a competitive piece that does not belong in a marriage. OR a family, come to think of it.

Being "right" can mean that you guessed the capital of Iowa correctly, and no one else did. Yay, bonus!

Whereas insisting that everyone agree with you on a political/theological/relationship issue is Not "right", ever. It's destructive - even if you had "a point."

Many LBSers (including me) come here feeling that their spouse "Should Not" do or feel the way they do or think what they think. Because it hurts us. But putting our focus on blaming the WAS

derails our potential growth and detachment and those are things WE need.


The method of communication is very often more important that the content.

do you get what I mean? HOW we resolve conflict is usually more important than who "won".

Speaking for myself and the women I've asked, if a w feels listened to and valued, and her h seeks & takes in her input, that's usually enough to feel good about whatever decision is made.



I don't have an answer to this because lately I've been feeling like I don't want to reconcile. The other night while drifting off to sleep I had a bit of an epiphany in which I couldn't ever see our relationship recovering from this. I know that this feeling won't last forever, but when I ask myself the question, "What would it take...?" I can't come up with an answer. So much damage has been done.


I hear you!

So, 2 things.

1) you don't have to know the answer to this^^^ now. There are things we cannot ever really "know" until IF and when it happens.

2) when the belief arises that the m is irretrievably broken to you, a period of sadness and mourning may come. It's a lot like acceptance, but find peace in this: you don't really know if it is true

and if it is, let your faith in God (or the universe, etc) and yourself, come in fully. Know you are going to be just fine, no matter what.

Half the m's in our nation end in D, which is a real bummer. It means that half the people around us were or are walking wounded. Weird, eh? But they survive and many thrive.

At some point in this ordeal, it is or will be ALL up to us. Meanwhile, get those tools to make that happen no matter what your spouse does.

[25yearsmlc]

Regardless, the desire to be "right" is definitely a strong one. I'm forced to participate in this divorce as if I agree with it and it's not fair.

you don't have to agree with it and no one will believe you do agree. You may have to sign papers and really, what is your option to that?
To stomp your feet and refuse b/c hey, you want "the world" to know you do NOT agree!?

Being a man of honor and strength means you can say calmly that it's not what you want but you resign yourself to her decision.

And learn to resign to it as if you know SHE will be missing a great man and life and that you feel sad for HER loss...

But I know "fair" doesn't really matter.

Oh it matters. But you are self aware enough to know that most people in the world are so much worse off than we are, just by virtue of us living in the west. Sometimes it helps us to have perspective, other times it's just not enough.

I struggle with the injustice of this. I relate.
Okay you already know in your head that there are worse off folks. -

Yet we have to process and resolve our pain. Mine was searing at times. Lately - maybe b/c our court hearing is soon, I've had anger so intense that I'd suddenly feel consumed & enraged, and fear that is so intense it would make my heart race and chest pound, sometimes at 4am.

THIS^^^ is not something I can maintain. I must process and reduce and then eliminate them. I refuse to be bitter, or defined by this, but we can be defined by how we react and how we retake our lives.


IF your M ends. You are still at bat.

My T said something I'll pass to you -- "Chris, you are really hurt, and it's shitty. Some folks have it a lot shittier, and some have a lot less [censored]. You still have to deal with yours..."

So Reframe this experience.




And the anger and I resentment I harbor toward my W permeates throughout all other aspects of my life. I know it has to stop because the only one who suffers from this anger is me.

This^^^ is gold. Consider the heart racing anger I felt last week when I was walking my dog. (I think I heard a song that triggered it)

I almost stopped walking my dog to go home. It hit me that my h has no idea how damaged I feel. And if he did, he provably would not feel guilt, but validated about how great a catch he was ("of course 25 misses me!") OR he'd feel that I was weak and unattractive ...or he'd give it no thought at all...

Though I see our d as mostly his fault, that does not matter in terms of my future happiness .

Can you see how your wife's "blame" in this, does not affect you & your future -unless you choose to let it?
I mistakenly believed that my love for him and the importance of our family was so deep and real, then getting over it would reflect poorly on me.

And sometimes I'd think

"HE did this to Me/Our kids. IF I'm not mad and hurt -pretty much always - then "everyone" will think I'm just fine with this! - And then H wins...but I'm right! He's wrong! How come HE gets to be happy and I don't?"

Because I'm letting my pain & anger remain in 'stuck', instead of filling my life with new joys and interests.

I am giving him all my power and he's not even aware of it.

Any of this^^ resonate?

You can reframe your experience here. That is where the GAL begins. And in your case I think making new friends and being a good friend matters more than you realize. Nothing gets you in a good mindset about the world and making meaningful connections than volunteering or coaching or putting yourself out there.

[25yearsmlc]

only speaking for my group, DivorceCare is excellent and the religion is there if you want it, but it is not pushed.

They end in prayers that seem appropriate to me. (I'm not in their denomination, but never felt like they were trying to recruit).

It is Very helpful to speak in real life with people struggling with the same things we do here. And they're fun and part of GAL.

Supporting them in their journey is so appreciated that it may help you, Chris, to give and receive support in your life. From something you said, you may need to work on connecting with people other than your wife. It's healthy and helpful.

Hang in there

[Gordie]

Chris73, that talking to your w about everything? Yes, I miss that so much. But now I talk to my guy friends more and realize I didn't really talk to her about everything. It was edited to the things she cared about.

25Years, w needing to feel valued and listened to? Yes

[Chris73]

Happy Monday everyone. So much to respond to. Thank you 25 for taking the time to offer all of your thoughts. I need to go back and digest everything before commenting.

In the meantime, I had a great GAL weekend. Hung out with a buddy on Friday night. Had the kids all day Saturday. Dinner with my mom Saturday night and then caught up on sleep. Yesterday I watched some football and then went to play at the open blues jam in Philly. The sign-up sheet was light so I got to play for almost 2 hours.

Of course, there were some times where I struggled to tame my monkey brain. A few obstacles made that hard.

1. Now that we've decided that I am going to buy my W out of the house she has reduced her effort to help maintain it to the bare minimum. I don't complain to her about it though, I just do my best to keep up with everything when I'm there.

2. Found out from the kids (with zero prodding I should add), that my W had a few people over on Friday night and OM2 was part of the group. Considering item #1, this seems very disrespectful to me, but I didn't mention it.

3. W and I talked briefly about setting up an initial appt with a mediator. I think we both want this "nesting" arrangement to be over soon. But to do that requires refinancing the house in my name only and dividing up the assets so that she has some liquid to get set up in her own place. The whole conversation is surreal. It's like the two of us are just business partners working out details. Even though I'm listening, every fiber of my being is longing to cry out, "Please stop this! Call it off! Let's try to work on things!" At one point she even said, "You look like you want to say something." But I just said, "Nope, I'm good."

I'm reminded of the end scene in the movie Swingers. For the entire movie the main character is pining away for his ex-girlfriend - checking his messages every 5 minutes... Then he goes out with his friends, has a great time, and meets a girl that he really likes. The very next morning his ex calls him to talk and he blows her off.

This is one of the things I've been attached to for so long: "When she comes to her senses it will be too late." What a stupid way for me to live my life right? Worrying about a very specific set of circumstances that may never happen..?

Anyway, I have the first session of Divorce Care tonight so I'll follow up with a post about the experience.

[25yearsmlc]

Happy Monday everyone. So much to respond to. Thank you 25 for taking the time to offer all of your thoughts. I need to go back and digest everything before commenting.
- went to play at the open blues jam in Philly. The sign-up sheet was light so I got to play for almost 2 hours.

How lovely!! What do you play?

Of course, there were some times where I struggled to tame my monkey brain. A few obstacles made that hard.

1. Now that we've decided that I am going to buy my W out of the house she has reduced her effort to help maintain it to the bare minimum. I don't complain to her about it though, I just do my best to keep up with everything when I'm there.

This^^ makes sense (and in her mind it probably does too). Of course the better the house looks, the more money for all...

What would happen if you told her that you are having a hard time keeping everything up? And what if you acknowledged that it must have been a lot for her too (IF she makes a snarky comment, I mean)? It would be a great way to know you have communicated something without an expectation from her

and that you will NOT get baited but make sure you don't say it in a way that seems as if you are baiting her. It's just about you disclosing something you are struggling with and NOT you attacking her. Good chance to show a new dynamic. Or not.



2. Found out from the kids (with zero prodding I should add), that my W had a few people over on Friday night and OM2 was part of the group. Considering item #1, this seems very disrespectful to me, but I didn't mention it.


I can see how it may look insensitive, but "disrespectful"? Uh, not so much. There were others around, not just her and OM2. And this will work itself out soon enough.

Maybe She sees this home as still hers until you buy her out. And the nesting thing you both agreed to, did not make this a boundary, correct?

Take a breath and remember that the more time she has OM2, the sooner she'll see that he's actually not the fantasy man she hoped. No one is...




3. W and I talked briefly about setting up an initial appt with a mediator. I think we both want this "nesting" arrangement to be over soon.

be careful not to mind read here^^^. You may be right, but you don't know. You know how YOU feel and that matters, but no need to assign an opinion to her.


But to do that requires refinancing the house in my name only and dividing up the assets so that she has some liquid to get set up in her own place. The whole conversation is surreal. It's like the two of us are just business partners working out details.

OMG yeah, I know how surreal it is. I really do My h of 35 years and I do not speak to each other at all - and he's not in contact with our children. Yeah, talk about surreal.

It's like he died, and we didn't get to have a funeral (and no one is bringing over food).
I try to tell myself he's on Mars and is simply presently unavailable.

Whatever helps. Chris, this is the most important financial transaction of your life. You are, for all intents and purposes, business partners and co-parents.

Let her feel some of the results and let go of your need to control events. She may believe that SOON she'll have her freedom and all will be well!!

Ain't no better treatment for delusions, than a bowl of reality.

Don't be a jerk, but be careful of your interests.


Even though I'm listening, every fiber of my being is longing to cry out, "Please stop this! Call it off! Let's try to work on things!" At one point she even said, "You look like you want to say something." But I just said, "Nope, I'm good."

She may have been probing. If it happens again, you can say something "real" but without overt pursuit, (if it's authentic for you. Especially if she felt you were not authentic about your emotions within the m. Maybe this -

"W, Oh,me? It's just this feels surreal to me. It's a lot to process. Anyhow, no worries. So, where were we?"

Chris, I highly doubt this is an emotionless process for her. No matter what she feels about you or the m or the family or OM#2 or what her fantasy is, this is not easy.
Even if she acts as if THIS is what she needs/wants/dreamed of!

She has to see what validates her choices...for now...



I'm reminded of the end scene in the movie Swingers. For the entire movie the main character is pining away for his ex-girlfriend - checking his messages every 5 minutes... Then he goes out with his friends, has a great time, and meets a girl that he really likes. The very next morning his ex calls him to talk and he blows her off.

This is one of the things I've been attached to for so long: "When she comes to her senses it will be too late."

As I said before, this^^ is common. It does show that you are being realistic and thinking ahead.

Some LBSers just obsess so much about undoing the rejection "reconciliation is THE ONLY goal" and that is detrimental to them.

I think you are self aware enough to think it out. And it will haunt you at first (b/c it means that you may not ever regain this m and your life will not be the same. And that is terrifying. ) ** You don't know the future and the good news is, you don't need to at this time.

A mark of detachment will be when the reason you might have moved on is not b/c you have another woman in your life, but b/c your life without a woman is still complete.



What a stupid way for me to live my life right? Worrying about a very specific set of circumstances that may never happen..?

We all have been there. We all need to work on it, (not just divorcing people, when you think about it).

You will learn to be i the present more. And the DivorceCare group will help.

Anyway, I have the first session of Divorce Care tonight so I'll follow up with a post about the experience.

Excellent!

[Chris73]

Thanks 25. The only quick comment I can make is that we DID agree to keep any new romantic interests away from our home and our kids during this nesting period. I'm guessing she feels like she's not breaking that promise bc OM2 is just another one of her "new friends" and I doubt that she is amorous towards him with the kids around. Doesn't really change anything tho. Unless I believe that her relationship directly affects the well-being of the kids, there's nothing to do about it.

Oh, and I play lead guitar.

[Vapo]

25,

I just wanted to say that you are AWESOME!