Still here. Still not detached...

[Holding]

Chris, your family may not know how to approach you. Have you tried reaching out to any of them?

[Chris73]

Chris, your family may not know how to approach you. Have you tried reaching out to any of them?

Hi holding. I have and I'm not claiming that there hasn't been any support from their end. It's just very generic, "If you need anything let us know."

I get it, it's awkward. But considering how much we were all involved in each other's lives when things were "good", I guess I'm just a little disappointed that everyone is treating my sitch like the 300 pound elephant in the room.

Meanwhile, I've signed up for a weekly "Divorce Care" group session starting next week. I'm a little apprehensive because I don't want to be bombarded with Bible quotes, but it's very cheap and it can't hurt to having something do to on a regular basis that might help me feel better about things.

Has anyone been to these sessions?

[Jim1234]

Chris, my family is not one you would consider to be "in touch with their feelings." All of us are kind of a caricature of the stoic military man. They were NOT going to ask me how I was doing, and when I eventually brought it up, you could kind of see in their reactions they were thinking "wtf?"

But the funny thing is, that even though it was really hard to open up to them about it, when I did, they were extremely supportive, and usually call once a week or so, "just to check up."

They'll probably be more supportive once you let them know it's ok. You don't really have much to lose by trying.

[25yearsmlc]

I just have to vent and maybe bring up a topic that's controversial and/or doesn't get enough consideration.

Divorce is embarrassing.

Yes it is. Not that it should be but it's hardly something we like advertising.

After a 35 year marriage ends, the marriage that others assumed was fine and many of them asked me m questions over the years and now it IS embarrassing. Especially b/c it's not a "Gywneth Paltrow Chris Martin - conscious uncoupling" but a huge upheaval filled with painful moments and stunning discoveries of betrayal.

You will eventually stop reeling.

Yes, I'm quite familiar with the concepts of detachment, dropping the rope, and GAL, and I even try to practice these occasionally

But the life event of a family breaking apart ripples through all aspects of my life and the lives of everyone I am connected to. Meanwhile, nobody wants to talk to me about it.

no one is going to bring it up, but are you sure nobody WANTS to? I definitely think it's up to you to bring it up. Not in their faces dumping it on them,

but when they ask how you are, (even if you think it's just them being polite,)

you are allowed to be authentic.

You can say "just getting through it, rough road but I'm managing the speed bumps" or some phrase like that which opens the conversation if they're open to it AND doesn't sound like you are falling apart.


Throughout my entire life, every milestone event was an opportunity for friends and family to reach out and connect with me on some level. -sad traumatic events - including funerals for example, DO make people uncomfortable. At my mom's funeral many people said useless things and I had to remind myself that they meant well.

Now here I am going through another major life event and nobody will even mention it. It's uncomfortable for them. It's uncomfortable for THEM?!


yes it is. Hard to see others in pain and there is a fear that divorce is sort of contagious. It's very common to see this, so don't take it personally. One of my brothers has invited me to his house twice in the past year...when I see him at gatherings he's concerned for me but not if it means he will be inconveniences b/c he's funny and smart but selfish. That is just true.

When h posted FB posts of him with OW saying SHE is the 'love of his life" and we are still m and it was VERY soon after we separated...it deeply wounded me and I will never see him in the same light. But I told my kids the truth about how I felt (they saw his posts and were not happy) and I always finished with something like "But no worries. I'll be fine" and I think that allows them to express their feelings without believing that they have to solve my problems or make me feel good.

Does that make sense? I suggest consoling them or letting them know that you WILL be fine, even if you hurt at the moment. That way they don't feel a burden on their shoulders but it allows you to be real and for them to lend support.



Ok so maybe I don't expect to ever hear from anyone on my W's side of the family anymore. They have to pick a side even if they don't want to. But do people really expect me to initiate a phone call or an email saying, "Hey I'm really going through some $hit right now and I'd really like to talk about it with you..."

Yes they do - and You can pick up a phone and ask them about going to a movie or drinks or dinner. NOT calling them to say you want to vent or dump. Very few people will respond to that well. It's scary and they do not know what to say.

I was very down in the dumps last week (and it keeps raining! OMG) I knew I had to snap out of it.

So I invited friends "out to play" and go to lunch, got a manicure and later on I went to dinner with another friend. I reached out and Yes we discussed the divorce.

It was good to vent BUT we also had a lot of laughs, and I made sure to reach out to them about their lives b/c we all have challenges and even though the divorce feels like the worst thing around, truly - ALL of my friends have or will have a deep setback in their lives too OR they have divorced as well.

Note that half of marriages end in divorce, it's not like our situation is the only one. And I really think there are people who fear it will affect their own m.

Last, many assume you don't want to discuss the most painful experience of your life, and that if you did, you'd do the reaching out.

My friend L unexpectedly lost her 22 y/o son last fall (undiagnosed heart problem).
That blow will never really go away...
She told me that ZERO co-workers reached out to her after the week of the funeral. Not one. And she's a popular loving woman who had worked there for 8 years.

I ran into one of those co-workers and they asked me how the L was doing! They do care, but their discomfort was paralyzing to them.

Very disappointing & the coworker also said "we figured we'd reach out when L returns to work. "

Wrong, as my friend L never went back to that job. She's still hurt, btw.

Again, try not to take their inability personally.




My separation is public knowledge but other than my mom, my IC, one close friend, and this board, I'm dealing with this alone. No calls or emails from friends/family asking how I'm doing. We had a picnic at my mom's yesterday and it was the first time that I've seen several family members since the separation. But people treated me like I had a disease, casual conversation only.

Not to rag on you, but Do you feel like you have done any reaching out? I'm asking.

Use the polite question they'll ask about how you are, to be real but without unloading.

For instance, at my class reunion, where it was not appropriate to monopolize someone for long, I made arrangements to reconnect later in the weekend with several friends.

But when I asked one old friend whom I had not seen since high school, what she had been up to, she said "Pain and despair" (I swear that's what she said).

I assume she had just had her heart broken but I wanted to flee. That's a lot to blurt out in a social situation, and it was presented in such a hopeless way, it's important we show that we are going to make it, but that we appreciate their reaching out.

I told my friends from last week that I appreciate them a lot. And I do.


And now that the school year is starting, I'm encountering a whole new slew of parents and teachers who will eventually need to know about the separation. And it's something that I'll have to bring up in response to some awkward question like, "Did you do anything fun this summer."

Keep the focus on how the kids are handling the "changes at home", not you. Let the teachers know and give them ways to contact you if the kids act our or drop their grades.
That's safer for them and it makes more sense than putting the focus on ourselves at the kids school. Make sense?


I know I shouldn't expect much else, but it hurts to feel so isolated in this journey. It makes me wonder if perhaps MY actions toward my family/friends over the past 10 years have been selfish and lacking and this is my payback. You know, the whole "emotional bank account" metaphor.


Worth looking at.

Maybe it's a way for you to grow from this. When people like my friend who lost her son and others who have cancer or are in our situations,

we tend to realize that our lives can be turned upside down overnight. And we appreciate the people in our lives that much more.

Look, I'm smart enough to know that I can't depend on anyone but myself, and I draw my strength from my kids and my commitment to being the best father possible. But I spend WAY too much time in my own head and I really thought that friends and family were going to play a more significant role in my GAL. The fact that they don't really hurts.

I never assumed they would be my way of GAL More like back up b.c I need to do NEW things, things I had always wanted to do b/c I don't want to fall back on my premarital life (long ago)- but I understand your feelings of isolation.

There is a support group for divorcing people that has been remarkably comforting btw. I think it's national and it's called "DivorceCare". Look into it. Also churches and teams and volunteer work would help you.

I did feel a tad surprised that I wasn't included in everything my childhood friends were doing. But i now realize they have their lives, jobs and their own problems are not small. We have to Put ourselves out there. More than is comfortable.


Next month 4 friends and i are going to visit a very sick friend at the beach. It'll be fun and reconnecting, but there's an underlying reason for going .

I think I need to branch out and hook up with some support groups to make new friends. I'm sure there are other dads like me who want to talk...

yes there are

[Chris73]

Thank you 25yearsmlc for all the advice! I actually did sign up for a Divorce Care session that starts Monday so we'll see how that goes.

I really think you're right about the idea of divorce being "contagious." I'm almost certain that if my neighbor hadn't been going through one before our troubles started we might be in a difference place now. Not that I'm trying to offload the responsibility for our sitch on to someone else, but the idea of cheating on your husband and breaking up the family is easier to justify if you can relate to someone else who's doing the exact same thing.

Today is the first day of school for my kids and my W is acting very strange. Yesterday she called me while I was on the train home from work. I let my VM pick up the call. Normally we really only speak on the phone about logistics (pickup, drop off, work schedules, etc.) But this time she left me a long message rambling about what she was up to and things she was trying to get done before the end of the day. None of the information had anything to do with me. I did not return the call.

Last night I was home with the kids for the last day of summer vacation. We went out for dinner and ice cream and watched our favorite "last day of summer vacation" tv show (Phineas and Ferb). Then I put the kids to bed, made their lunches, filled out a questionnaire for today's conference with D5's kindergarten teacher, and made a "first day of school" sign for them to hold up today when we took pictures.

W showed up this morning, before the kids woke up, to help with the first day preparations. I took a work from home day so that I could see them off. It was D5's first time on the bus and so, like we did 3 years ago for S8's first time on the bus, my plan was to follow the bus to school and take more pictures. Meanwhile W had booked an appointment for work and had to leave. So I went to the school by myself, took some pictures, and hung out at the first day back parent coffee event. After getting back home W txts me to say that she' won't be back in time to pick up D5, who has half days this week.

Throughout all of this I'm resisting the urge to be judgemental. But it's hard for me to not look at all of this as selfishness. As more and more time goes by my W's actions indicate that her job and her personal life are more important than her kids and (obviously) her husband. And I feel like she'd rather be working more than anything else.

This is so unlike the way that she's been for the past 10 years. She's a great mom, but she doesn't have a role model to relate to. My W's mother was married 3 times and had 5 kids with 3 different fathers. She always preferred work and relationships over her children. And now I see this happening with my W and it [censored]. I know there's nothing I can do about it. She's going to have to deal with the consequences of her actions eventually.

My biggest challenge is to figure out how to let go of the anger I'm harboring about all of this. It affects every aspect of my life and prevents me from truly moving on...

[25yearsmlc]

Chris

First

I just noticed you are in the Philly area. Please check out a personal growth workshop many DBer's have attended (including me) and found quite profound. I think it's literally life changing. I mean that.

No, I'm not paid to say this! But it's for individual growth, so your w does not have to go (Retrovaille is for couples but you know, your wife has to want to go, etc)

So the workshop in philly is called "Essential Experience" and it's 3 1/2 days, and incredibly worthwhile.

I'm going back this fall to do Team and help other participants, but it always feels like I am getting a refresher.

Secondly

As for your wife and the first day of school, Slow down!

Yes you are being judgmental, a bit petty and imo, unfair.

Stop the mind reading. It'll get you nowhere and honestly you sound like you are projecting onto your wife some misdirected anger.

You are understandably hurt about her feelings towards you and the marriage. I get it.

But her mothering and behavior on the first day of school for a working mom - is well within the bell curve. And it sounds as if she does not have a work from home day like you do.

You really don't know what is going on at her job or in her mind or heart.

She got up early to drive over to help you see them off. (She wasn't already at home like you). Stay on track, and know what you are really feeling and why.

Don't attack her motherhood, especially for something like this.

Check into the workshop as I think you'll get a jumpstart on your personal work and I can promise you that you'll leave there feeling MUCH better about your life, and you will leave with a PLAN...plus all of your relationships will improve. Yeah, all of them.

Hang in there.

[Rose888]

Chris, I can't remember all the details of your wife's work environment. Has she been employed for long? Does she have a new assignment? How much seniority does she have?

In general though, I agree with 25yearsmlc. You are judging behavior that is well within the bell curve of behavior of employed moms and dads. Would you think badly of a co-worker who put their kids on the bus and then worked a normal day?

I remember one year, when I did what you did (drove to school behind the bus), and I overheard two teachers gently laughing at us parents. They, of course, had to put their kids on the bus and then get to work.

There is a wide range of parenting styles. I get the feeling that your wife has in the past been firmly on the Pinterest and Helicopter Parenting side of the curve. It's not uncommon for people to adjust their parenting styles as their kids get older.

Not hovering, not making a sign for pictures, is not a sign that her kids are less important than they were.

[Chris73]

Hi 25. Thanks for all the insight. I have to respectfully disagree with some of your comments. Being disconnected from the situation, your observations are sound and my feelings do come off as an attack on my W's motherhood. But here's my point.

The first day of kindergarten is a big deal. And I don't even mean in a universal sense, I mean it's a big deal in our family. When my son started kindergarten there was a huge ramp up of enthusiasm. We made it very special for him and treated the day like a holiday. Three years later the idea of making the day special for my daughter wasn't even on my W's radar. And this isn't an isolated incident. My W has dropped the ball on a lot of things regarding our kids over the past year and this is very uncharacteristic of her.

While it's true that she doesn't have the choice to work from home, she does make her own hours and only works 2 days during the week. She could have easily taken the appointment at another time or on another day. It's not a money issue and it's not an issue of losing a client. It comes down to her not being able to say no to her clients for fear of disappointing them. Ironically, the people who should be more important to her are the ones who end up disappointed.

Now she may have had some sort of existential awakening and decided that she was propping up the kids too much. That we were hovering too much. That our kids need a dose of reality so that they won't feel so entitled. She's said these things to me. But I don't really believe that. I think that the unresolved issues from her traumatic childhood and her dissatisfaction with our marriage created a perfect storm that propelled her into a selfish mode that she doesn't even recognize.

Yes I'm assuming a lot. And yes I'm being judgemental. The good news is that I'm choosing to vent about it here instead of starting arguments or deciding to ramp up some sort of custody litigation. I know that this is our new reality and I'm trying my best to focus my energy on the parenting aspects that I have control over. But it's so hard to watch our family unit break down little by little and not be able to do anything to stop it.

I'm really glad that I still made the effort to make the first day of school special for my daughter. That's what I'm trying to focus on moving forward.

[25yearsmlc]

Hi 25. Thanks for all the insight. I have to respectfully disagree with some of your comments. Being disconnected from the situation, your observations are sound and my feelings do come off as an attack on my W's motherhood. But here's my point.

what you said IS an attack on her mothering, but one which you are defending below. How's that going to help your cause?

Rather than taking it in and saying "wow, I am making critical assessments of my w's mothering and an outside observer said so, based solely on my own words. I need to examine how to change this way of viewing her"

INSTEAD, you just further defended your criticisms. IS that working for you?



The first day of kindergarten is a big deal. And I don't even mean in a universal sense, I mean it's a big deal in our family. When my son started kindergarten there was a huge ramp up of enthusiasm. We made it very special for him and treated the day like a holiday. Three years later the idea of making the day special for my daughter wasn't even on my W's radar. And this isn't an isolated incident. My W has dropped the ball on a lot of things regarding our kids over the past year and this is very uncharacteristic of her.

While it's true that she doesn't have the choice to work from home, she does make her own hours and only works 2 days during the week. She could have easily taken the appointment at another time or on another day. It's not a money issue and it's not an issue of losing a client. It comes down to her not being able to say no to her clients for fear of disappointing them. Ironically, the people who should be more important to her are the ones who end up disappointed.

^^^ just more justification and more mind reading -ALL negative, btw.

Hey, you may be right (or not) but I think you need to reframe your approach big time.

Do you want to be "right" or do you want to save your m?

Now she may have had some sort of existential awakening and decided that she was propping up the kids too much. That we were hovering too much. That our kids need a dose of reality so that they won't feel so entitled. She's said these things to me. But I don't really believe that. I think that the unresolved issues from her traumatic childhood and her dissatisfaction with our marriage created a perfect storm that propelled her into a selfish mode that she doesn't even recognize.





Yes I'm assuming a lot. And yes I'm being judgemental.

YES and it does you and the m and your kids, NO GOOD. I hope to God you did not reveal your emotions and judgements to the kids in any way

The good news is that I'm choosing to vent about it here instead of starting arguments or deciding to ramp up some sort of custody litigation.


Um, maybe I'm not reading this right, but if you think ^^^^ this will affect custody -AND that you should "ramp it up", you are not being realistic. It won't ramp it up and it'll make you look petty.

Lose the scorecard - which I fear you may have had for some time. Scorecards are bad news. Worse when you learn that your spouse has one of their own, on their scorecards you won't be getting the points you think you deserve and you will have many "demerits" for the wrongs your w feels have occurred to her.


I know that this is our new reality and I'm trying my best to focus my energy on the parenting aspects that I have control over. But it's so hard to watch our family unit break down little by little and not be able to do anything to stop it.

You can compensate for whatever shortcomings you think your w's mothering has AND when she works out HER way of mothering the kids in the new situation, it's not in your sandbox, that is just hers. You need to stay in your own sandbox and fix/work on you.

How are You stepping up to the plate as a dad now? That is the focus. That's what you control. Unless you reasonably and sincerely believe the kids are endangered, you have to back off. It will NEVER HELP YOU to criticize her mothering. I am positive of that.

I'm really glad that I still made the effort to make the first day of school special for my daughter. That's what I'm trying to focus on moving forward.

Well done. Your w saw your involvement and if you handled it w/grace and not shown her your disapproval, she may be touched by how you rose to the occasion. If you showed your disapproval she will feel defensive and flee faster. Having a parental tone or outlook with our spouse is a huge turn off, btw.

Definitely vent away from the wife and make sure the venting releasees stress rather than spiraling downward & increasing it, which can happen.

Maybe a byproduct of this is learning how much there is to being at home as a parent. I know my h thought laundry and lunches and transportation and homework and PTA and classmates and invites and field trips and dealing with a house and yard and bills and homework, were all magically done by elves.

Just saying.

[Gordie]

Chris,

I've reached out to a few guy friends and made that call: dude, I'm hurting and I've gotta talk to someone. All have been there for me more than I ever imagined, but I had to make the first step.