Don't take more than 2 sentences to make a point - but please decide nothing, tonight.
No advantage to rushing an answer
This would be another 180 for me. Normally I would've unloaded a quiver full of unnecessary "truth darts" on her immediately after receiving the text.
I think "truth darts" are not well received. They are usually meant to shut the other person up, or or sting them.
It's "truth" to the speaker, maybe, (or it's just a hurtful remark). I don't understand why someone feels good about their spouse being silenced by a "truth dart" - seems to me the speaker just hurt or shamed their spouse into silence. And that just pushes the WAS farther away and plays right into the narrative of the LBSer being "nasty and cold and unloving."
Do you get what I mean?
Glad you did not unload a quiver of arrows. They harm the marriage and erode the bond.
Plus they can get very labored...If you ever saw Charlie Brown you can recall how the teacher's comments always sounded like "WAh wa wah wahhhhh, and blah blah wahhh wah"
Been there, done that.
As you noticed, when we begin the parental lecture or the condemnation speech,
they just tune us out or lash out. So NOT effective.
I used to think if I had a brilliant argument like in court, of course h would slap his forehead and say "25, you're so right! All this time I had it backwards! I will CHANGE NOW!"
Um, nope...
Rays
I have a bit of a 2 x 4 I hope you have a helmet on, okay?
From what you describe here, at times you sound mean to her. I'm not defending her or saying she is kind to you, but I don't know what she says. Just your words.
The snipes and knee-jerk retorts probably confirm her negative images of the marital dynamic. You know, you really don't have to become a doormat to counter this, just don't engage when you're not calm or it's not going to be productive. A lot of your reactions sounds reactive and anger driven.
What can you do to deter yourself from^^^ this?
How did conflict resolution look in your family growing up? Did anyone make compromises and then keep score and resent them? Conflict resolution should not leave one party feeling resentful or victorious. Anyhow,
You said you are seeing an IC, right? Maybe they can assist in this area.
Hang in there.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
HUGE problem is in my family we never really resolved conflicts...never really had any...mostly kept silent about things.
I know I sound mean to her at times because sometimes my tone gets very angry. You are correct...a lot of my reactions are reactive and anger driven. They don't come from a position of strength.
So I'm working on un-doormatting myself while engaging WW from a position of strength and not reacting emotionally...calmly keeping on point without unravelling into an unproductive anger ridden exchange.
I want to respond with:
"I didn't ask for this S/D so I don't feel I'm the one who should leave. You're welcome to stay at the house anytime, however, I will not leave(be leaving) the MBR."
Will also discuss during my IC session tonight as well as other issues I need to work on.
Hi Ray, you asked me in another thread to pop in so here I am I am reading back through your sitch but wanted to post a quick response to this:
Originally Posted By: Raysd6
"I didn't ask for this S/D so I don't feel I'm the one who should leave. You're welcome to stay at the house anytime, however, I will not leave(be leaving) the MBR."
If you have time, read Dobson's "Love Must be Tough". You can download an electronic copy from Amazon and it's a pretty quick read, but it hits a lot on this subject of "opening the cage door" and I think it dovetails well with DB'ing. He also talks a lot about the distance/pursuit dynamic and explains it in very easy-to-understand terms, even providing some diagrams illustrating it.
I used a paragraph in his book as the template for a similar convo I had with my wife, it went something like "I would like for you to stay here and work on the M, but most of all I want you to be happy and if you feel that leaving is what will make you happy then I am not going to interfere. I will support you in your decision no matter what it is." The point of "opening the cage door" is you are NOT trying to control/ manipulate the situation. You are NOT making her decision for her. You are telling her you will support HER in HER decision. This is an important distinction because often the WAS feels they're being controlled and manipulated by the LBS, especially when it comes to post-BD because the LBS is so hellbent on saving the M while the WAS is done with it.
My W later came to me and asked why SHE had to move out, why not ME. I told her that SHE was the one that wanted out of the M, and I was being put through enough as it was and had no intentions of leaving the home. I reiterated that she was welcome to stay AND WORK ON THE M (I never offered her the option of staying in limbo), or leave, it was her choice.
The point being, I was gentle and understanding, but also firm and resolute. My leaving the house was never a point of negotiation, it was never on the table and she knew it. That was the last time she asked, after that she started looking for places.
Furthermore, I don't do divorce therefore YOU will need to figure out how to end the marriage and tear apart the family on your own.
Here's another book recommendation for you- "No More Mister Nice Guy." It's not what the title sounds like, it delves into the NGS (nice guy syndrome) and how "nice guys" are really not as "nice" as they try to appear on the outside. I'm reading some passive/aggressive comments throughout your posts (your comments towards your W I mean) like the one above. It is very unhealthy, and very damaging to any relationship but especially that with your spouse. Your W is already beating herself up for what she's doing, but when you say things like this she says to herself "wow, this is why I'm leaving this jerk, and I'm DEFINITELY doing the right thing." So quit giving her ammo. Read Sandi's 37 rules every day and LIVE them!
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We're also supposed to start family counseling as WW's drinking has caused a fair amount of alienation from our DD's. So between her EA's and her drinking our family is very broken.
I'm also reading a lot of blame in your posts. I don't excuse your W for pursuing an affair, but try to quit blaming her and start asking yourself why. Why did she feel the need for an A? What was she missing in the M that she finally had to seek elsewhere? What can you do 180's on in that regard?
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WW also says things like "DD's will be much happier if we're apart" "All the tension in the house is caused by LBH" "I think DD's would be disappointed if we stay together" "I think we'll be better as friends"
Read the sticky thread on validation if you haven't already. I think your inclination is to argue whenever she says things like this, but arguing about it just prolongs the tension and resentment. If you can learn to validate effectively it is a huge 180, especially for those who have passive/aggressive tendencies.
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I so want to tell her "Every time you look in the mirror, you'll know who tore apart this family"
In her eyes that is you. And every time you say something like that, it just reminds her it's you. Like 25 said, you can't "guilt" her back any more than you can "nice" her back.
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I also want to send her the picture I took of her and OM on the patio as well as the "we should get naked together" text capture and tell her "This is how I will remember you for the rest of my life...the serial cheater that you are"
First, I'm glad you had the forethought to post that here rather than doing it. Second, whenever you want to do something like this, ask yourself what your goals are. Then ask yourself "does this move me closer to my goal, or farther away." Get used to asking yourself that a LOT!
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In the past when I've sent truth darts at WW, she claims that "I'm emotionally abusing her" "Using my words to cripple her" "You're unpredictable...nice one minute then mean the next" yada yada yada
I was as much a NG as anyone here, although I'm mostly reformed now. From one NG to another, SHE IS RIGHT. You ARE emotionally abusing her, you ARE using your words to hurt and cripple her, you ARE unpredictable and P/A. Please try and grasp that sooner rather than later, so you can go about the long, long road of repairing that about yourself. 5 years later I'm still working on it myself. You keep calling them "truth darts" but they are not. They are nasty little jabs. Your version of the "truth" is not the same as hers. Reposting this response from 25:
"We cannot go back in time but man, if we could, I'd STFU and gone my own way and lived my life GAL without so much preoccupation and obsessing and wondering"
Amen to that. Learning to STFU is the most important DB'ing skill IMO.
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Me: Are you coming home tomorrow? WW: Not if you will be there Me: I'm sorry you feel that way. I'll set your packages on your work table. Enjoy the rest of your day. WW: Thx
That's definitely better as far as validation, but why ask that in the first place? DETACH!
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This may be semi pursuing but I motioned for WW to roll down her window:
Me: I'm making pasta later if you want to stay and have some WW: No...I think I'm just gonna go Me: Ok
Yeah that's pursuit. Stop it!
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Ever since I started this thread I have been very cautious in my approach and language while interacting with WW. I agree that most of our interactions have not been not healthy. Based on the wonderful advice you gave a couple days ago, I've not been righteous, preachy, judge mental, or self pitying! Through you I've realized that the constant pity party, self loathing "zingers" only prop me up by tearing her down. So one of my 180's is to be more loving and caring while being calmly confident in our interactions. The constant harping drove her away while at the same time making me look very unattractive.
Great stuff, keep it up! Just understand that 180's require TIME. Your W won't believe them at first, then will think they are just tricks to get her back. It takes months or even a year or more before she'll start thinking you've really changed.
OK I think that catches me up I don't have time to stay on top of all of the threads here, if it seems like people are getting a lot of good help from others then I usually focus elsewhere. 25 and Treasur have given you some great input here! But I will try and keep tabs too!
WW: I'd like you to reevaluate our living arrangements
Haven't responded yet
Sent the following response:
Me: I would like for you to stay here and work on the marriage, but most of all I want you to be happy. If you feel that leaving is what will make you happy then I am not going to interfere. I will support you in your decision no matter what it is.
WW: DD's do not want us there together...that's not an option
I think you are bravely looking at ways to improve and that is commendable. REALLY.
I hope you'll read AS's post above, again. I have to admit that your comments (which he cited), made me cringe when I read them. I worried that you wanted us to validate them, but I shook my head -- literally.
I don't believe the very terms "truth darts" are in the DB books. Periodically I read some LBS here, using that phrase and proudly quoting their jabs here.
And it portends badly for them, imo.
One of the single most important changes I have made as a woman/mother/wife/friend is learning to hold my tongue. (Drink a STFU smoothie).
Now, I fight fairly, and I do not go for the jugular. I do not "hit back" or sling mud, I stay on point and if the other person cannot, I end the discussion. I can agree to disagree or just extricate myself. This has helped my psyche, my spirit, my health and it has helped my r's enormously.
People CAN change. Cycles can be broken.
Keep at this. I think your w is in a lot of pain, and looking for a friendly shore to land on.
The jabs just push her away and you feel bad later. Here is the "math" of it. consistent change + sufficient time = change she can believe in.
The time for You to tell her what she "should" do for you or the family or m, is not when she's on the fence or wanting out.
Now is the time for just you to work on just you. If you really feel compelled to insert yourself into her drinking issues, rather than your own stuff,
attend Al Anon on your own. (Don't tell her if you go, it'll just be a way to manipulate her into feeling like crap about herself which is SO Not going to make her want to work on the M)
Or just stay in your sandbox. You have bravely admitted you have your own issues. Good for you! Best to start there.
Hang in there.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
WW: I'd like you to reevaluate our living arrangements
Haven't responded yet
Sent the following response:
Me: I would like for you to stay here and work on the marriage, but most of all I want you to be happy. If you feel that leaving is what will make you happy then I am not going to interfere. I will support you in your decision no matter what it is.
WW: DD's do not want us there together...that's not an option
is it true that the d's don't want you there together? (I can you see why).
IS there room in the house for you to each have your own space?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
I don't know if D's really don't want us there together. WW said "d's want to stay in the house with just me here". I asked D17 and she said "that's not what I said"
There really isn't room in our house for us to have separate space. I figure if I'm 180ing then I won't be in her space all that much. I have a huge certification that I'm studying for plus I have a boatload of work travel coming up.
I'm making some progress because previously I would have immediately responded to try and convince her to go to MC that we owe it to D's to try one last time to save M...do you want to just throw 27 years away, etc. which would have quickly unraveled
I am reading back through your sitch but wanted to post a quick response to this: