WAS Rushing into Legal Filings

[FizzSer]

Also --

Thinking about going near completely dark.

I think my W loves talking on the phone, google photos, email about our son. It's her main joy in life. I think the reason she's rushing into legal is to get more time with him -- her plan is to do almost nothing until he starts school to maximise her time with him.

And everyone loves sharing what she loves! There is no-one else who understands the love for our son as I do, and no-one else to share these experiences with the same.

So I could go dark (dark as possible at least)... show her what she would lose. But could also seriously backfire!

[FizzSer]

Regarding GAL:

I have to pull back on this actually. Crazy I know.

1. Getting back into a few video games that I play with friends.
2. Picked up a guitar and learning guitar.
3. Weekly bible study, weekly church.
4. Weekend get togethers with other parents, parks
5. Camping every 2nd weekend
6. Books and more books! I love to read.
7. Cleaning the house, keeping it clean.
8. Gym, running, clean eating.
9. Considering joining a climbing class or picking up dance lessons again.

Phew

I actually get pulled in too much directions!

[FizzSer]

Gave my W my first boundary a few days back.

At the end of our email exchange about trying to get her to halt pending litigation, I said that all future communication would be by phone, and nothing by text/email.

She's since asked via email for our S for a day I normally have him. She's also since via email said I should 'email her for a few things like clothes' (just knick knacks and help), disregarding what I previously said.

I called her to discuss the day she wants as the schedule she proposed doesn't work but I'm happy to see if we can come up with something that does. Left a voicemail about it. Later got an email saying she'd prefer to discuss by email.

So I called back a few hours later and got voicemail, leaving this message (which I wrote out and prepared before hand):


---
Hi, Hope your day has been well!

I got your email, and thank you for sharing your preference and I understand. I also feel you've misunderstood something I said in a previous email as I've received a few emails about you disregarding something.

I had stated that I will not be communicating by email or text except for document exchange until legal action is over. This is a boundary of mine that I will not be violating. I will also be extending this to voicemail and any other recordable communication as long as there is pending litigation of any type. The exception will be document exchange, picture exchange, links, and potentially communication specifically around our relationship and litigation -- and of course any emergencies regarding drop-off/exchange or medical. I will be extending this to any record-able communication after this voicemail, so you will not be getting a voicemail again.

You are free to continue to communicate by email, but I will not be participating. This is a boundary I am setting about my behaviour and I will not be violating it.

I encourage you to state your own boundaries to feel safe by phone to make this work. For example, if at any point you are feeling disrespected, please feel free to hang-up on me. The last thing I want to do is disrespect you during these phone calls like I did a few nights ago.

Again, I'm more than happy to accommodate an extra day with our S, and also hope you'll help me understand your boundaries.

--------

[25yearsmlc]

Gave my W my first boundary a few days back.

At the end of our email exchange about trying to get her to halt pending litigation, I said that all future communication would be by phone, and nothing by text/email.'


I am curious about this^^ choice. I think it's the first time I have ever seen someone Not want communications in writing.

You won't be documenting anything, and clarity is lost when someone cannot go and re-read the communications.

Putting things in writing is protective in 2 ways - no one can say the other abused or attacked or confused the other party or put words in your mouth, AND b/c we tend to be more careful when we put things in writing. Less chance of blurting out something we regret later.

Second, your demands come across to ME, as very controlling. You are overtly trying to control her about the divorce AND about how she is to communicate with you.

Sorry, but I'm just not clear on the basis of your decision. It is NOT a boundary (which is all about how You will react to something)

this is you demanding SHE not do something AND how she must do it.

She's since asked via email for our S for a day I normally have him. She's also since via email said I should 'email her for a few things like clothes' (just knick knacks and help), disregarding what I previously said.

I called her to discuss the day she wants as the schedule she proposed doesn't work but I'm happy to see if we can come up with something that does. Left a voicemail about it. Later got an email saying she'd prefer to discuss by email.

So I called back a few hours later and got voicemail, leaving this message (which I wrote out and prepared before hand):


---
Hi, Hope your day has been well!

I got your email, and thank you for sharing your preference and I understand. I also feel you've misunderstood something I said in a previous email as I've received a few emails about you disregarding something.

I had stated that I will not be communicating by email or text except for document exchange until legal action is over. This is a boundary of mine that I will not be violating. I will also be extending this to voicemail and any other recordable communication as long as there is pending litigation of any type. The exception will be document exchange, picture exchange, links, and potentially communication specifically around our relationship and litigation -- and of course any emergencies regarding drop-off/exchange or medical. I will be extending this to any record-able communication after this voicemail, so you will not be getting a voicemail again.

You are free to continue to communicate by email, but I will not be participating. This is a boundary I am setting about my behaviour and I will not be violating it.


This ^^^ remains Inexplicable to me. I don't believe you realize how this comes across.



--------

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks for posting bluWave.

The DV wasn't that bad -- it was NOT acceptable and one of the big problems was my wife had a hard time admitting that it wasn't, she blamed it on me. It wasn't abusive, it never just happened as I came home. Typically it occurred when my wife would try to 'get away' from one of our fights and lock herself in a bathroom.

can you see HER POV here without immediately then defending your own? You won't release her to get some space b/c you have your own baggage about it from childhood.

I'm extremely sorry about your mom's death. Even so, I don't think it's your wife's job to reassure you when she needs space from a conflict.

My mother killed herself in a bathroom from depression, so i couldn't leave her in there. So i would open the door, and she was hit me to get away from me. Very much 'self defence' but still not excusable. Just a bad situation all around.

what would SHE say if she were here?

Would she say you refused to back off and got in her face? Bathrooms are not large spaces. You say it's self defense on HER part but then you say it's inexcusable.

If you were to have another conflict with her, and she wanted to retreat or escape, would you do anything differently?


Her depression wouldn't be that extreme compared to others I've seen.


This^^^ matters.

The biggest changes in myself are identifying my own pride, putting aside my own wants and ego, self rationalisations, identifying that I DO have blind spots and am not perfect, and asking others for honest feedback on my problems.


^^^these are very general. Do you have any specific behaviors you want to change?


Right now I am struggling with how I approach the legal situation. I have a fair amount of evidence of DV, poor behaviour, not quite with it, and am experience in legal matters.

It's precisely because of the legal matters that I favor putting everything in writing.


It is unlikely my wife will get what she wants out of this but I might hurt her so bad because of it. So I question: Is that what is best for her? For our son?


You mean b/c you have a scorecard tracking her errors? I don't understand the question. Are you saying you want to use a scorch and burn approach to the divorce BUT you don't know what's best for her or your son?

Behaving in a dignified gracious way is the only surefire way to have no regrets.

Be mindful that she may have her own scorecard and on hers, you have fewer points than you may realize.


I read the boundary threads and think about putting up boundaries, and after a few hours realise the boundaries I'm thinking about are not actually to protect me, but to hurt her.


then as you may have realized, those^^ are NOT boundaries. They are punitive choices made under the guise of boundaries and many hurt LBSers use the pretense of a "boundary setting/teaching a lesson to spouse" just to punish.

After all, when we are hurt, we are tempted to want the spouse to feel our pain.

But it is not our job to teach them a lesson, life does that.


Some of my friends advise me to look out for myself out of 'self care'. But once we are OK with the world and ourselves -- surrender to it -- then that IS self-care.


Nothing punitive here^^^. Or are you saying that your friends are angry and want you to sling some mud?

I am a completely different father because of this. It's incredible. I can see it every day I'm with my son. Our bond has grown leaps and bounds.

Frankly, this is the best thing that ever happened to me. But it doesn't mean I think continuing as a separated family is what is best.

I understand this^^. These ordeals TEND to trigger growth in us if we steer away from acting on anger and are self aware.

There are some who become bitter and vindictive and pretend it's "just showing the WAS the consequences of THEIR behavior", but if you are self aware and honest, you'll know which is which.

If you become a husband only a fool would leave, you'll have done your best.

You said you realized your shortcomings but do you have specific goals to address those issues?

Any short term behavioral goals?

They really help us keep our perspective about our personal progress.

[FizzSer]

Gave my W my first boundary a few days back.

At the end of our email exchange about trying to get her to halt pending litigation, I said that all future communication would be by phone, and nothing by text/email.'


I am curious about this^^ choice. I think it's the first time I have ever seen someone Not want communications in writing.

You won't be documenting anything, and clarity is lost when someone cannot go and re-read the communications.

Putting things in writing is protective in 2 ways - no one can say the other abused or attacked or confused the other party or put words in your mouth, AND b/c we tend to be more careful when we put things in writing. Less chance of blurting out something we regret later.

Second, your demands come across to ME, as very controlling. You are overtly trying to control her about the divorce AND about how she is to communicate with you.

Sorry, but I'm just not clear on the basis of your decision. It is NOT a boundary (which is all about how You will react to something)

this is you demanding SHE not do something AND how she must do it.

She's since asked via email for our S for a day I normally have him. She's also since via email said I should 'email her for a few things like clothes' (just knick knacks and help), disregarding what I previously said.

I called her to discuss the day she wants as the schedule she proposed doesn't work but I'm happy to see if we can come up with something that does. Left a voicemail about it. Later got an email saying she'd prefer to discuss by email.

So I called back a few hours later and got voicemail, leaving this message (which I wrote out and prepared before hand):


---
Hi, Hope your day has been well!

I got your email, and thank you for sharing your preference and I understand. I also feel you've misunderstood something I said in a previous email as I've received a few emails about you disregarding something.

I had stated that I will not be communicating by email or text except for document exchange until legal action is over. This is a boundary of mine that I will not be violating. I will also be extending this to voicemail and any other recordable communication as long as there is pending litigation of any type. The exception will be document exchange, picture exchange, links, and potentially communication specifically around our relationship and litigation -- and of course any emergencies regarding drop-off/exchange or medical. I will be extending this to any record-able communication after this voicemail, so you will not be getting a voicemail again.

You are free to continue to communicate by email, but I will not be participating. This is a boundary I am setting about my behaviour and I will not be violating it.


This ^^^ remains Inexplicable to me. I don't believe you realize how this comes across.



--------

Hi,

Thanks. Bit confused about this. This was not a demand, but stating how my own behaviour will be. There is nothing in there about her behaviour.

She often misreads and misquotes emails. Litigation began to start exactly because of this. Plus, I will not give her anything in writing that is not reviewed by my lawyer and I would advise anyone to do the same based on three previous court experiences.

This is, again, all how I will react. I will not communicate by email, txt, voicemail, facebook, etc. or any other recordable communication until court action is not pending.

I understand she may be upset. I would be too.

[FizzSer]

Thanks for posting bluWave.

The DV wasn't that bad -- it was NOT acceptable and one of the big problems was my wife had a hard time admitting that it wasn't, she blamed it on me. It wasn't abusive, it never just happened as I came home. Typically it occurred when my wife would try to 'get away' from one of our fights and lock herself in a bathroom.

can you see HER POV here without immediately then defending your own? You won't release her to get some space b/c you have your own baggage about it from childhood.

I'm extremely sorry about your mom's death. Even so, I don't think it's your wife's job to reassure you when she needs space from a conflict.

My mother killed herself in a bathroom from depression, so i couldn't leave her in there. So i would open the door, and she was hit me to get away from me. Very much 'self defence' but still not excusable. Just a bad situation all around.

what would SHE say if she were here?

Would she say you refused to back off and got in her face? Bathrooms are not large spaces. You say it's self defense on HER part but then you say it's inexcusable.

If you were to have another conflict with her, and she wanted to retreat or escape, would you do anything differently?


Her depression wouldn't be that extreme compared to others I've seen.


This^^^ matters.

The biggest changes in myself are identifying my own pride, putting aside my own wants and ego, self rationalisations, identifying that I DO have blind spots and am not perfect, and asking others for honest feedback on my problems.


^^^these are very general. Do you have any specific behaviors you want to change?


Right now I am struggling with how I approach the legal situation. I have a fair amount of evidence of DV, poor behaviour, not quite with it, and am experience in legal matters.

It's precisely because of the legal matters that I favor putting everything in writing.


It is unlikely my wife will get what she wants out of this but I might hurt her so bad because of it. So I question: Is that what is best for her? For our son?


You mean b/c you have a scorecard tracking her errors? I don't understand the question. Are you saying you want to use a scorch and burn approach to the divorce BUT you don't know what's best for her or your son?

Behaving in a dignified gracious way is the only surefire way to have no regrets.

Be mindful that she may have her own scorecard and on hers, you have fewer points than you may realize.


I read the boundary threads and think about putting up boundaries, and after a few hours realise the boundaries I'm thinking about are not actually to protect me, but to hurt her.


then as you may have realized, those^^ are NOT boundaries. They are punitive choices made under the guise of boundaries and many hurt LBSers use the pretense of a "boundary setting/teaching a lesson to spouse" just to punish.

After all, when we are hurt, we are tempted to want the spouse to feel our pain.

But it is not our job to teach them a lesson, life does that.


Some of my friends advise me to look out for myself out of 'self care'. But once we are OK with the world and ourselves -- surrender to it -- then that IS self-care.


Nothing punitive here^^^. Or are you saying that your friends are angry and want you to sling some mud?

I am a completely different father because of this. It's incredible. I can see it every day I'm with my son. Our bond has grown leaps and bounds.

Frankly, this is the best thing that ever happened to me. But it doesn't mean I think continuing as a separated family is what is best.

I understand this^^. These ordeals TEND to trigger growth in us if we steer away from acting on anger and are self aware.

There are some who become bitter and vindictive and pretend it's "just showing the WAS the consequences of THEIR behavior", but if you are self aware and honest, you'll know which is which.

If you become a husband only a fool would leave, you'll have done your best.

You said you realized your shortcomings but do you have specific goals to address those issues?

Any short term behavioral goals?

They really help us keep our perspective about our personal progress.

You're quite right and it's something I thought alot about and cried about.

She would say she felt threatened and controlled. She has previously threatened suicide so as time went on we found other ways for me to check on her when she would go into a room. Regardless, I had a hard time respecting her space and it was wrong.

She would view it as self-defence. But it was still wrong to hit me, and the police have agreed with me and filed a protection order for me against her.

I do have a 'scorecard'. About 1.5 years ago as things began to escalate I began to take detailed notes about our fights as she would lie to the police. I also began to take video of them. I did these out of defence. I started to go through them a few days ago and it was terrible.

Fights really do take two people. I wasn't capable of backing down.

Most of my friends are very angry and want her to get 'whats coming to her'. I don't think that's right.

[FizzSer]

Gave my W my first boundary a few days back.

At the end of our email exchange about trying to get her to halt pending litigation, I said that all future communication would be by phone, and nothing by text/email.'


I am curious about this^^ choice. I think it's the first time I have ever seen someone Not want communications in writing.

You won't be documenting anything, and clarity is lost when someone cannot go and re-read the communications.

Putting things in writing is protective in 2 ways - no one can say the other abused or attacked or confused the other party or put words in your mouth, AND b/c we tend to be more careful when we put things in writing. Less chance of blurting out something we regret later.

Second, your demands come across to ME, as very controlling. You are overtly trying to control her about the divorce AND about how she is to communicate with you.

Sorry, but I'm just not clear on the basis of your decision. It is NOT a boundary (which is all about how You will react to something)

this is you demanding SHE not do something AND how she must do it.

She's since asked via email for our S for a day I normally have him. She's also since via email said I should 'email her for a few things like clothes' (just knick knacks and help), disregarding what I previously said.

I called her to discuss the day she wants as the schedule she proposed doesn't work but I'm happy to see if we can come up with something that does. Left a voicemail about it. Later got an email saying she'd prefer to discuss by email.

So I called back a few hours later and got voicemail, leaving this message (which I wrote out and prepared before hand):


---
Hi, Hope your day has been well!

I got your email, and thank you for sharing your preference and I understand. I also feel you've misunderstood something I said in a previous email as I've received a few emails about you disregarding something.

I had stated that I will not be communicating by email or text except for document exchange until legal action is over. This is a boundary of mine that I will not be violating. I will also be extending this to voicemail and any other recordable communication as long as there is pending litigation of any type. The exception will be document exchange, picture exchange, links, and potentially communication specifically around our relationship and litigation -- and of course any emergencies regarding drop-off/exchange or medical. I will be extending this to any record-able communication after this voicemail, so you will not be getting a voicemail again.

You are free to continue to communicate by email, but I will not be participating. This is a boundary I am setting about my behaviour and I will not be violating it.


This ^^^ remains Inexplicable to me. I don't believe you realize how this comes across.



--------

I sent this email:

I have reconsidered the boundary that I stated in voicemail.

I think it was wrong and stems from my own pride.

While I had thought it over for a few days and felt at peace about it, as I slept on it tonight and prayed I think it was just more of the same types of behaviours that I showed through our marriage.

I apologise.

[sandi2]

She has mild depression and is on anti-depressants. She has a hard time working and typically works 8 hours a week at a minimum wage job

Please bear with me while I ask a lot of questions. You are not obligated to respond, of course. It's just my way of trying to see things more clearly. So, in the quote above, are you saying your W has a problem working over one hour per day, b/c she has mild depression? How much does her anger play into not holding down a job?

She has been not well for a few years. In many ways my life is better without her. I worked full time as management, as well as did all the grocery shopping, cooking, kitchen cleanup, meal planning, finances, 'normal' guys things like car maintenance, household maintenance. We had a cleaner to clean the house. She did the laundry. A normal schedule for me when I got home from work would be to clean up the kitchen from her use during the day, then cook a healthy dinner, then clean up the table/kitchen, then do bedtime routine with our son -- by which point she was tired and often already asleep.

So, what exactly did she do with her time? When you say she's not been well, are you referring to her mild depression.......for which she is being treated? Does she have other health issues?

I would often use our unequal contribution against her.

Well, I could see why! What did she contribute?

I support our separation. She did the right thing even though it was sudden. She probably did not feel like she could express her fears/worries to me, or like I would ever change. I do not think I would have seen how I was acting if she had brought it up to me. We were attending marriage counselling and both said things were getting better, but we missed the 'big items'.

What were the "big items"?

My wife is the most kind and loving person I know

Including the DV and the fact she hit your son? That statement seems to counteract with the description you laid out.

But she has been hurt so bad that she cannot see anything past herself now.

What happened to her?

She has taken up with a group of friends who have all recently left their husbands so I am worried she is getting bad advice that is not considering 6 months from now, 5 years from now, etc.

Yes, that is a very legitimate reason to cause concern, b/c of the influence the other women can have on her.

My mother killed herself in a bathroom from depression, so i couldn't leave her in there. So i would open the door, and she was hit me to get away from me. Very much 'self defence' but still not excusable. Just a bad situation all around.

Very sorry to hear that. It must have brought back very painful memories when your W would retreat to the bathroom during a fight. Did your W know your mother committed suicide in much of the same way she continues to act out? Did you have to take care of the house and cooking for your mom, too?

I could see why you cater to your W b/c of the ordeal surrounding your mother. Has your W ever been tested for anything other than diagnosed with mild depression?

I'm not a doctor, but I have suffered with depression since I was a teenager.......so I am familiar with it. I have been on anti-depressants practically my entire adult life. I have held down a full time job all my adult life, while raising a family and holding down many church obligations, civic duties, etc. I have suffered from an extensive list of health problems...........and, had very little help from my H. So, I have a hard time seeing that your W does not have something other than mild depression going on with her. You say she hasn't been well for years. I'm asking what is her health problem? Why can't she work over one hour an day? Why can't she take care of her home and family? Has it always been this way? What is the real deal?

And finally, if she's that incapable.........how can she take care of your child?

[FizzSer]

She has mild depression and is on anti-depressants. She has a hard time working and typically works 8 hours a week at a minimum wage job

Please bear with me while I ask a lot of questions. You are not obligated to respond, of course. It's just my way of trying to see things more clearly. So, in the quote above, are you saying your W has a problem working over one hour per day, b/c she has mild depression? How much does her anger play into not holding down a job?

Very little. Her recent job issues were more around companies going out of business and her lack of motivation to find one.

She can easily work more -- she doesn't like to.

She has been not well for a few years. In many ways my life is better without her. I worked full time as management, as well as did all the grocery shopping, cooking, kitchen cleanup, meal planning, finances, 'normal' guys things like car maintenance, household maintenance. We had a cleaner to clean the house. She did the laundry. A normal schedule for me when I got home from work would be to clean up the kitchen from her use during the day, then cook a healthy dinner, then clean up the table/kitchen, then do bedtime routine with our son -- by which point she was tired and often already asleep.

So, what exactly did she do with her time? When you say she's not been well, are you referring to her mild depression.......for which she is being treated? Does she have other health issues?

No idea! We even keep our son in daycare three days a week on days when she has a few hours of work. Don't know what she did with her free time that much -- napped, did some crochet, visit friends. House was usually messier when I came home than when I left.

I would often use our unequal contribution against her.

Well, I could see why! What did she contribute?

She did the laundry. Sometimes and not reliably. We hired a cleaner to come every two weeks as well.

I support our separation. She did the right thing even though it was sudden. She probably did not feel like she could express her fears/worries to me, or like I would ever change. I do not think I would have seen how I was acting if she had brought it up to me. We were attending marriage counselling and both said things were getting better, but we missed the 'big items'.

What were the "big items"?

My pride and anger issues. Her lack of compassion or understanding. Her resentment. My controlling nature. How I would hold things over her. I wouldn't give her time to calm down to apologise -- I would demand them immediately. I was easily frustrated.

This got worse as her contribution to the household and marriage decreased.

My wife is the most kind and loving person I know

Including the DV and the fact she hit your son? That statement seems to counteract with the description you laid out.

I think we all lose control at times -- it doesn't stop us from being loving.

But she has been hurt so bad that she cannot see anything past herself now.

What happened to her?

I think I've described some of it above.

She has taken up with a group of friends who have all recently left their husbands so I am worried she is getting bad advice that is not considering 6 months from now, 5 years from now, etc.

Yes, that is a very legitimate reason to cause concern, b/c of the influence the other women can have on her.

My mother killed herself in a bathroom from depression, so i couldn't leave her in there. So i would open the door, and she was hit me to get away from me. Very much 'self defence' but still not excusable. Just a bad situation all around.

Very sorry to hear that. It must have brought back very painful memories when your W would retreat to the bathroom during a fight. Did your W know your mother committed suicide in much of the same way she continues to act out? Did you have to take care of the house and cooking for your mom, too?

I could see why you cater to your W b/c of the ordeal surrounding your mother. Has your W ever been tested for anything other than diagnosed with mild depression?

I'm not a doctor, but I have suffered with depression since I was a teenager.......so I am familiar with it. I have been on anti-depressants practically my entire adult life. I have held down a full time job all my adult life, while raising a family and holding down many church obligations, civic duties, etc. I have suffered from an extensive list of health problems...........and, had very little help from my H. So, I have a hard time seeing that your W does not have something other than mild depression going on with her. You say she hasn't been well for years. I'm asking what is her health problem? Why can't she work over one hour an day? Why can't she take care of her home and family? Has it always been this way? What is the real deal?

And finally, if she's that incapable.........how can she take care of your child?

[/quote]

These are good questions. When I meant by not well, I meant the lack of emotional support I was giving was exacerbating her depression and motivation. Every day, she would be fearful that I would come home and get upset about the mess the house was in as it just got in the way of the chores I had to do (cooking/cleaning).

It doesn't matter whether she should have contribute more or not -- I was not compassionate about it.

I am a bit concerned about her ability to care for our S which is part of where the legal action is putting me at conflict with how do I do what is in her best interests vs our S's. I do not think it is in our S's best interests for her to have more than 50/50 custody, and once there is a financial split I think that will be too much too.