LiM: One Year into Piecing

[DonH]

I was about to ask how you have come to this clearly mind reading conclusion but it would appear you've admited that's what you have done - based on your last sentence. But why? Why are you wanting to sabotage your chances at a happy R with your W? It's as if you are looking for any tiny item so you can then say "see, I knew she still wants OM and does my love me." Why? What does that get you? Or are you afraid to put in the work or afraid to be vulnerable enough to let her back in? All she did was text someone that she saw OM and the rest you have concocted. You don't know if your conclusions are true or not.

This is all very hard but I see so many here regret their actions after their spouse leaves them. Only then do they look back at their actions and see what they have done wrong. I hope this is not what you do. I really hope your W does not get fed up and leave, only for you to THEN see how your actions contribute.

It seems clear you need to get some pro marriage IC help here. I think that could really help you sort things out. I would just really hate for you to have been given the result so many of us here have prayed for - only to give it all away. Please don't do that!

[BluWave]

LiM,

I am sorry to read this. You know as well as I do that this is it's own roller-coaster ride! There is something oddly cathartic/comforting about holding onto the hurt/pain after BD, as we remain this perpetual victim. Then when they come back we have to put on our big girl (boy) pants and do the work. Some of that work is so uncomfortable because we have to make conscious choices that just don't feel right at all. Head over heart. There is no script or 37 rules for us. Sigh. And there are less of us to guide each other. So my friend, I will try my best from my own, limited perspective.


I fear I've basically become a WAS

I am not sure you have, but what I think you are saying here is that you fear you are running out of gas to keep chugging along. At times I have wondered if I was, or was becoming, the WAS however when I thought about it, I was not. How could I tell? Because I was far too emotionally invested. I think when the spouse is ready to walk, they have already reached a point of apathy. IMO apathy is not a place that any of us want to get to because it involves turning away from feelings, and I think it far more healthy to work through them.

Please don't stop caring. I know this is hard and terribly painful, but it won't benefit you in the long run to just turn off your feelings. Think about them, feel them, talk about them, and work through them. If you don't, they will resurface and times and in ways that are out of your control. I do know at times that I have buried feelings in the last couples years because they were too painful to face, however they will and do still exist.

You can continue to detach from her in a healthy and safe way, while acknowledging your feelings too. I tend to think detachment in piecing is still a good thing. Things with my H are going well right now, and I am more "detached" from him than I have ever been. Meaning, we are both are own independent people and are feelings do not hinge on the other persons choices/actions. I realize more and more how codependent we were before BD, but I couldn't see that because I was so invested in my adoration for him. That wasn't healthy at all.

I am still seeing some of this codependency in your sitch---what have you done to work on that other than detach and GAL?

Here is the part where I am not sure how to advise you, and that is regarding her feelings for OM. My question is, is she grieving the loss of OM or is she still wayward and fantasizing about a R with him? I think there is a big difference between these two scenarios. Have you straight up asked her? I would want to know what I was dealing with. I was fortunate that when my H left OW, he did so without reservations and never looked back. Let's say he did--grieve the loss of the A or second guess his leaving her--well I would want to know which one it was. I would NOT want to help him through that process. I would also detach (as you are) but I think I would tell him why. I am afraid you may be trying to punish her and remaining a victim instead of being direct and then stepping back?

I wonder if Sandi can speak to some of her actions? From what I have read here, it sounds like it can take time for a wayward W to complete the grieving process. You say that you are hardened to her and not the better option. Could it be that she feels you will never forgive her and see past it? Could that be the reason she is thinking about him instead of the other way around? Maybe it is time you show her that strong and confident LiM and let her know this current R isn't working for you.

I am sorry this is so hard. I think it is better to do something than nothing at all. Have you thought about Retrouvaille or more MC? This is extremely challenging and especially if you are not sure that she is all in. It is okay to tell her how hard this is for you right now, that you are having second thoughts, and that you do not see that she is all in. ... Also, I do think if you can give it more time, things can turn around. It took me two years to have feelings of hope again, and not ones that were fleeting. She is asking what she can do and so it sounds like she is willing to stick this out.

Blu

[LiM]

DonH,

I posted hoping to receive some 2x4's. Thank you for delivering.


Blu,

I was also hoping that you would see my post and reply. Thank you for doing so.

what I think you are saying here is that you fear you are running out of gas to keep chugging along. At times I have wondered if I was, or was becoming, the WAS however when I thought about it, I was not. How could I tell? Because I was far too emotionally invested.

Yes, my fear is that I'm getting to a point that I don't want to work on it any more because I'm just tired of it all and would rather just move on. I tell myself that I'm apathetic and don't care any more but I think that is just the hurt talking. The truth is that I DO love my W and want this to work. I keep getting in my own way though.

I am still seeing some of this codependency in your sitch---what have you done to work on that other than detach and GAL?

Nailed it! I did a half a$$ job at reading a codependency book. I AM codependent. I need to work on that no doubt. I really struggle with this one though. How are we NOT supposed to be affected by the things our spouse does? I feel like you need to be able to expect certain things from your spouse (they won't be unfaithful) and that if you don't get those things, you're just supposed to not be affected by it? I don't know how that's possible.

My question is, is she grieving the loss of OM or is she still wayward and fantasizing about a R with him?

My gut tells me it is the former and not the latter. Of course my mind races and imagines the worst and I guess there is always the chance that could be what it is but I don't think so. Its just taking a lot longer to flush him from her system than I would like. But I think you made a good point. I think I will just ask her straight up which is it and see what she says.

I am afraid you may be trying to punish her and remaining a victim instead of being direct and then stepping back?

Quite possible. If I again had to be honest, I want to punish her for what she did. I want her to feel as bad as I did/do. But I also know that revenge doesn't solve anything. It might feel good in the moment, but in the end, it kills the R. Revenge and forgiveness don't go together. I've got to pick one or the other.

Maybe it is time you show her that strong and confident LiM and let her know this current R isn't working for you.

Not sure what you mean by telling her the current R isn't working for me? Again, if I had to be honest, I may be more of the problem than she is. YES, she should have told me about the accidental encounter and discussed her feelings with me but I'm the one having the pity party.

We are both in MC and IC and actually should both go more than we do.
I really needed someone to step and offer some advice. Thank you guys for doing that. I've got some work to do.

[AnotherStander]

I was about to ask if you're in MC but see that you are. Let me ask you this, all of the things you are saying here, which are VALID ISSUES, are you saying them in MC? Your W may not even know that she's still doing things that are eroding your trust. You're one foot out the door, you have nothing to lose by airing your grievances, and you should by all means do it before you're both feet out the door.

Also have you ever checked into Retrouvaille? I think it would be a huge benefit to the two of you, especially right now.

[LiM]

Ya, we do talk about these issues in MC. Typically, the issue is her being resistant to the things I'm asking for and wanting and the MC having to tell my W that these are reasonable and normal requests. I haven't told my W or the MC that I sometimes feel like I have a foot out the door and I guess I should. I guess I haven't because I'm afraid that doing so will come across as a scare tactic and I don't want a W who stays only because she fears having to go through a D. I only want her if she truly wants me.

I have looked into Retrouvaille and it is something I would be open to doing. However I don't know that my W would. Last year, we did a VERY extensive program called Pathways. I'm afraid my W would say "We've already done enough work like that." But this program IS focused on communication and I think my W WOULD say that we still struggle with communication. So I guess I should ask.

Interestingly, I looked up a Youtube video on Retrouvaille. That lead me to watching another video about a couple talking about recovering from infidelity and then I saw something that shook me and had me crying within seconds. I saw a man in a video that I know. A man talking about his infidelity and how he and his W have recovered. This couple is someone that we have known for a very long time. My W used to work with his W and if my memory is correct, my W even went on a medical mission trip to Africa many years ago with this couple. To my knowledge, my W is NOT aware of their situation.

Here's the thing. When I see these WS's in these videos and when I read stories on this board and others about former WS's and their attitudes about A's and the work they did to rebuild their R with their S, I do NOT see my W exhibiting the same level of humility and effort. I can't even put my finger on what exactly it is but my W is NOT the person that these other former WS's are.

I'll be asking my W tonight if she's familiar with this other couples story. Perhaps this other couple can be a mentor to help us through our struggles. Perhaps this mans W can help my W understand what she truly needs to be doing to help us recover.

[doodler]

LiM,

My assessment from afar is that your wife is not fully committed to the marriage and if the OM were to become available, she'd be off with him again. I think that's what's nagging you.

That's an awful thing to tell someone, and I'm often wrong, but it seems like she's doing what she needs to do until an opportunity arises (i.e. cake eating).

I hope someone comes along and tells me I'm full of sh*t.

[LiM]

And this is EXACTLY what lurks in the back of my mind: real or not.

[AnotherStander]

Ya, we do talk about these issues in MC. Typically, the issue is her being resistant to the things I'm asking for and wanting and the MC having to tell my W that these are reasonable and normal requests.

Great, well clearly you are doing all the right things but I tend to agree with you that it sounds like your W is not as invested in the M. And if you suspect it, then it's probably true.

I guess I haven't because I'm afraid that doing so will come across as a scare tactic and I don't want a W who stays only because she fears having to go through a D. I only want her if she truly wants me.

Wow, you really are turning into a WAS because that is very much what WAS's think. The problem is most wait so long that by the time they do say something they are completely done and it's a classic BD scenario. My suggestion is don't hold back, get it out there. Remember when you were BD'd, you didn't want to get back together because you were scared, you really did love your W and wanted her back. She may find herself in the same position that you were in, but maybe if you do a mini BD it won't be too late for her to make some serious changes.

I have looked into Retrouvaille and it is something I would be open to doing. However I don't know that my W would. Last year, we did a VERY extensive program called Pathways. I'm afraid my W would say "We've already done enough work like that." But this program IS focused on communication and I think my W WOULD say that we still struggle with communication. So I guess I should ask.

It is very much focused on communication. They don't disclose too much about it beforehand because the tools they give you are more effective if you go in with an open mind and no preconceptions. They tell you at the end of it not to share the techniques with others and they explain the reasons. It's not a conspiracy of silence or anything, it's just that you need to go into it as a leap of faith.

A man talking about his infidelity and how he and his W have recovered. This couple is someone that we have known for a very long time.

I've mentioned this on the forum before, but there were coach couples at Retro that you would swear had always had perfect marriages. They were the kind of people that you might look at and say "wow, I want what they have- perfect love, perfect marriage, perfect family!" You kind of go in assuming they've chosen people who have problem-free marriages to offer instruction in the classes. But.... then they share their stories with you. Oh my gosh, it was unbelievably emotional not just for them but for everyone in the room. These were all people that restored their marriages from impossible situations. I mean absolutely awful stories of betrayal, infidelity, draining of bank accounts, leaving spouses and children without a home and living out of a car with ZERO remorse at the time. Just shocking, terrible stories. And yet these marriages were all not just restored, but built into incredibly loving relationships that were models to live by. That's the power of Retrouvaille. You have to be in the right frame of mind though, they insist that neither party can be in an affair and both have to be committed on some level on at least trying. One of the coach couples went twice, the first time the H was actively in an A and basically went through Retro angry at his W, the coaches and the world. He had to hit rock bottom of his MLC before he was finally ready, the 2nd time he went in humble and it made all the difference.

Anyway my point is nearly all long-term marriages have been through a rough spot, and in some cases REALLY rough. It just doesn't come up in daily conversation. So yeah, it's no surprise that you knew that couple and didn't know their sitch!

[BluWave]

doodler, why don't you just shut your pie hole, you don't know what you are talking about! :-) Hey, LOL, you asked for it!

LiM, I honestly don't think any of us can know if your W is grieving loss of OM or pining for him. Only she knows how she feels. The thing is, sometimes our fears become self-fulfilling if we focus on them. I want to help you get to more positive thinking. You say you don't want to obligate her to stay and that you want it to be her choice, right? But in your post yesterday you said that you ARE NOT THE BETTER OPTION. Can you chew on that for a minute?

Yes, to what AS just said about Retrouvaille, echo! I don't know anything about Pathways, but my H and I went to the Retro- weekend and we are finally on tract with the post-sessions. It is teaching us how to communicate on the most basic, fundamental level about our feelings. We make a lot of assumptions when we communicate, however when you can very clearly articulate your feelings, and when you can actually listen/understand your partner's feelings, the natural result is a closer R as we realize we do care so much more than we thought we did. That is what intimacy is, right?

It is not a course about problem solving or marital issues. It will give you the basic tools. As the weeks go by and you practice using the tools, you will become more equipped at handling fixing things that are broken later on. Like AS says, we cannot really give away the details because that will take away from the effectiveness of the program. If you can both go with an open-mind and give it a try, it does work. It is incredible and powerful to see these couples and what they have overcome--some of them have been through much, much more than we have! What we learn is that love is a choice, and if you both choose to love, then you can make it work.

My H and I went to MC too and she was very good. The thing is, we often left there emotionally drained or even conflicted. Retro- will teach you practical ways to navigate issues on your own. I am actually glad that we waited 2 years to go because it feels more manageable now than it would have been initially, when things were still so raw.

Not sure if that helps. Keep posting LiM, don't give up yet :-) You still have so much time on your side. There is always more time.

Blu

[LiM]

I think I'll be bringing up Retrouvaille this week. There is a program in our area starting the end of next month. I am completely open to it. I expect she will shoot it down but if I give her time to ruminate on it, maybe she will come around.

But in your post yesterday you said that you ARE NOT THE BETTER OPTION. Can you chew on that for a minute?

Yes, you are right. Many times that I post, I'm talking to myself as much as I am to the rest of you. I DO see the problem with that and recognize that there is no reason for her to want to try harder if I'm not willing to do the same. That's work for me to do.