Still here. Still not detached...

[mvgfwd2]

Way to stand up for yourself Chris. That's how you regain respect. Women don't respect pushovers. I don't think they even know how abusive they are until you stand up to them. They just expect you to accept whatever they dish out.

[Chris73]

Thanks mv. The problem I've had for a while is that I always equated "standing up" to my W with being mean or confrontational when really it's just about enforcing boundaries and not waffling. I'm slowing getting better...

[mvgfwd2]

The world is full of little things that condition men to be subservient to women. I biggest pet peeve is the saying "Happy wife, happy life". Even the old chivalry that men should never hit a woman. I would never do it but I think women take advantage of knowing it. They are emboldened to treat men like dirt because there are no consequences. And most women have no hesitation to slap and hit men. However, when you stand up they back down on that garbage. For example, my step mom had a thing to smack me for the smallest thing. When I was in my mid-teens I decided I had enough and just blocked her arm and held it until she gave up. Said "I think that's enough of that". Never got smacked again.

Another example, years later same step mom got irate after dinner because I didn't get to washing dishes fast enough. Mind you I was married with 2 kids and was just visiting. I packed up the family and went home immediately. Wrote a letter that night telling her that she may ask me politely to help with dishes but I will not be subject to crazy, irate rants any more. If she wants us to come over again I require an apology and acknowledgement that I am not her slave. A written apology came a week later. No more crazy rants.

A more recent example is with my wife. I was telling her some problems I was having working through and didn't know how to move forward. Instead of discussing my issue she went to her problems. After a few minutes I had to stop her and get her back to why I called her. She wanted to talk about her problem. I flat out said "god you're selfish, everything has to be about you." After a little back and forth she finally acknowledged maybe she was selfish. Years ago I would have just let it go. No more of putting her on a pedestal garbage as we are conditioned. We are equals in this relationship.

[Chris73]

This advice is very timely. It's 1:30 in the morning and I have to be up in four hours to go to work, but I can't sleep. And I can't call and talk to anyone because it's very late. So I figured I'd post on this board.

My wife and I had a discussion today with our marriage and family counselor about the "next step" in our separation. Long story short, my wife believes that because only a portion of her income appears on her W-2, that she is going to have a hard time getting approved for an apartment lease or a mortgage. And so it would be "easier" if I moved out and she stayed in our house.

I told her that I didn't believe her, and she admitted that she hadn't done any research on this but was merely restating information that she had gotten from "a friend". I also told her that her staying in the house and me moving out is unrealistic because she can't afford to live in our house.

Finally I told her that I think SHE should be the one to move out. After all, she's the one who wants out of the marriage. She's the one who wants to remove herself from our family unit. She's the one who doesn't like our house and doesn't have any desire to take care of it. Plus, the house isn't worth anything so selling it is not an option either. She didn't respond to this.

I left the session extremely agitated and angry with her. As I sit here writing this, that anger has still not subsided. And my biggest problem is that I am caught up in the anger. I can't let it go. I realize that all of these negotiations need to be dealt with unemotionally, as if it were a business. But it's so difficult.

As of now she's not talking about filing and we have both agreed that we will not get lawyers involved in these negotiations. But I don't know how long that can last. And I'm doing everything I can to avoid pulling funds from my retirement and my kids college funds to fund a divorce litigation.

It's so funny to think that just yesterday this was the same woman who was crying to me on the phone about how she never wanted to hurt me and that she has done some "terrible" things. As it turns out these were probably crocodile tears to soften me for the discussion we had today. The good news is that I didn't take the bait, but still very hard to be level headed when you know you're being manipulated.

[Vapo]

I am so sorry to hear that buddy. We've all been there, we all have had our share of crocodile tears flung at us, we all have been mind fcuked.

It is hard. It is hard to fathom how a person we shared our everything with just simply disappeared and another entity invaded their body. Mind blowing.

Excellent job not willing to move out, great response. Stick to your guns. Do seek legal advice, so you do not get caught with your pants down.

Anger is good, you are supposed to get angry. I know it would be best handled as a business transaction, but it it your LIFE we're talking about. Detach, detach, detach...

I know it sounds corny, but it is her, not you. It is damn near impossible not to take it personally, but it it your wife who has issues, not you. That is not to say you are without a blame (no one is (was), but just own up to your part of the situation and no more. Frankly your W's issues are no longer any of your business.

I am in a similar sitch as yourself, ages are just about the same, I too have 2 kids, D8 and S5, my BD was in June of 2014, so I am a couple of years ahead of you.

GAL and detach should be your mantra. Be the best dad you can to your kids, leave your W to sort her own mess...

[Treasur]

And so it would be "easier" if I moved out and she stayed in our house.
Easier for her...

I told her that I didn't believe her, and she admitted that she hadn't done any research on this but was merely restating information that she had gotten from "a friend". I also told her that her staying in the house and me moving out is unrealistic because she can't afford to live in our house.

Quite right

Finally I told her that I think SHE should be the one to move out. After all, she's the one who wants out of the marriage. She's the one who wants to remove herself from our family unit. She's the one who doesn't like our house and doesn't have any desire to take care of it. Plus, the house isn't worth anything so selling it is not an option either.

Right again. Grown-up logic.

She didn't respond to this.

Not what she wants, and she's having to think again because she thought you'd just roll over

I left the session extremely agitated and angry with her. As I sit here writing this, that anger has still not subsided. And my biggest problem is that I am caught up in the anger. I can't let it go. I realize that all of these negotiations need to be dealt with unemotionally, as if it were a business. But it's so difficult.

Your anger is reasonable. Use it as fuel, but don't let it bite you in the backside. Go running. Punch a bag. Get rid of the hot anger but use the cold.

As of now she's not talking about filing and we have both agreed that we will not get lawyers involved in these negotiations. But I don't know how long that can last. And I'm doing everything I can to avoid pulling funds from my retirement and my kids college funds to fund a divorce litigation.

Do you know what will make things better for you in the s/t? Do you want her out? In which case give her a timeline to make her own plan and tell her how much of the joint resources are available for her to use and for how long. Do you want to file or go for a legal separation if you can? In which case talk to a L. What is the benefit to you of this joint C right now? Is there any talk about your needs or the kids?

It's so funny to think that just yesterday this was the same woman who was crying to me on the phone about how she never wanted to hurt me and that she has done some "terrible" things. As it turns out these were probably crocodile tears to soften me for the discussion we had today. The good news is that I didn't take the bait, but still very hard to be level headed when you know you're being manipulated.

But you did anyway. Don't mind read, you can't know. These folks run on emotions which change with the wind. She will lie and feel sorry for herself and blame you and try to play you. You aren't dealing with a grown woman right now, but a child. All the more reason for you to be the adult and for her to learn from having to deal with adult consequences.

[mvgfwd2]

Also, a reason to get a L is they are detached emotionally. They are your level head when you can't be.

[LH19]

I left the session extremely agitated and angry with her. As I sit here writing this, that anger has still not subsided. And my biggest problem is that I am caught up in the anger. I can't let it go. I realize that all of these negotiations need to be dealt with unemotionally, as if it were a business. But it's so difficult.

Chris,

I am curious as to why you are angry? She is looking out for her and the kids best interest and staying in the house will be easiest for her.

Behind anger is fear. Are you afraid that you will try to be nice and give her the house?

You should take that as a reminder that starting now you are only agreeing to what is in the best interest for you and the kids.

[EastTN]

I am so sorry to hear that buddy. We've all been there, we all have had our share of crocodile tears flung at us, we all have been mind fcuked.

It is hard. It is hard to fathom how a person we shared our everything with just simply disappeared and another entity invaded their body. Mind blowing.

Well said, man. I think the hardest part of this is accepting that the above has happened. Telling yourself "this CAN'T be what it looks like" over and over, making excuses for their behavior to yourself and to your kid(s), taking blame for the whole situation, because you just can't believe that someone has changed so much literally overnight.

Except they haven't changed overnight. They've been changing for a long time, and the "old them" is a mask they've been wearing.

[Chris73]

I think I get your point LH. The anger is definitely rooted in fear. Fear that I will backpedal and agree to all of her terms, but also fear that if I stand my ground she'll push back even harder and things will get ugly and expensive.

But the anger is also a bunch of irrational "poor me" emotions. I know they're not helpful, but I have trouble controlling them. And they certainly get in the way of rational and civil discussions.

I think moving forward I need to prepare and plan my side of these negotiation conversations ahead of time. Have things written down, stick to the script, and err on the side of saying less instead of more. It's clear that I cannot rely on 100% improvised dialog when my emotions are running so high.