WW in A. NC promise broke. Separation? (5th thread

[AnotherStander]

Jim, it sounds like your W is grieving the loss of OM. This is a really, REALLY frustrating part of recon, the WAS is actually grieving the loss of that scumbag dirtball OM that nearly broke your M? How dare she grieve some loser you just want to beat the snot out of, right? LOL! But she liked the fun and excitement of sneaking around and doing something forbidden, and the idea of a new, better life with him. Now it's back to the same old dumpy life (in her mind). Of course that imaginary life was just that, it wasn't going to happen. And the NEW life with you doesn't have to be dumpy, but you have to show her that. So what do you do while she grieves? Well first of all, just understand that while it IS NOT FAIR to you, she IS grieving and you should try to give her time and space for that. Second, she no doubt still blames you so there's going to be some anger and resentment there, and the best thing you can do is (again) give her time and space. Like TXH said- leave her alone, do your thing, go be your awesome self

[hoosjim]

I don't know about you but "don't touch me it seems weird" sounds creepy stalkerish stuff.

That wasn't an exact quote, more of a statement of the dynamic. She has said on more than one occasion to me and to MC, and not necessarily in response to anything I have actually done, that "the thought of being touched by you just doesn't feel right" or "feels weird." Now, sometimes she has been in a place where it obviously doesn't "feel weird", but maybe she was just being manipulative, who knows. Her demeanor and thoughts on such things seem almost, at times, to not be irrational, and she will completely forget things she has said and done or reverse stances with no recollection of her previous stance (This all just since the advent of the "A") MOST recently, she made this comment after we had been having a talk, sitting facing each other indian-style on the bed, and at a point where she had gotten a little emotional, I had taken her hand in a VERY NATURAL and not at all unusual, awkward, or out of the ordinary way, pretty much like you would do with ANYONE of the opposite sex in that situation. To her, at that point, that felt "weird." Contrasted with two weeks earlier where she had hugged me, kissed me, initiated a tickling exchange while joking around with me, and at one point "tucked me in" in bed when I was sleeping in a little and climbed "over" me, straddling me for a few seconds after doing so. All in the same 24 hours.

So... nothing "stalker"-ish going on, here. Just a whole, whole whole lot of flip-flopping and, at times, mixed signals, though, by and large she has not been hesitant to slam the door on me and tell me how much she does NOT want any kind of physical interaction with me and that she does NOT want me throwing compliments her way, no matter how sincere, because "coming from hoosjim, they don't make her feel like she thinks such comments ought to make her feel".

[Coconut]

For now just keep working on yourself, be friendly when around her (good morning, good night, etc.), but no R talks. You didn't need to "clear things up" that were left hanging, she doesn't need to know where you are right now and you don't need to know where she is. She NEEDS to cut contact with OM and get past the effects of that before any R talks need to occur.

You may say "If I don't talk to her then she will just go to OM", and I will reply that if she wants to try and save M, she will NOT go to OM and will take time to herself. If she does go to OM, then she isn't where she needs to be to try and reconcile. So just do your own thing for the next month or two and see what happens.


And just to clarify, if she wants to R talk, you listen to what she has to say, validate if appropriate, but you don't provide input other than to reply to a question of "do you want to D", and you say that's not what I want right now.

[hoosjim]

And just to clarify, if she wants to R talk, you listen to what she has to say, validate if appropriate, but you don't provide input other than to reply to a question of "do you want to D", and you say that's not what I want right now.

What if she says "I want to go back to marriage counseling and give it another shot?" Not very likely at this point, IMO, but she had said something similar as recently as a couple of weeks ago in the immediate aftermath of the latest "reveal", but backed off of that when we had our "post-OM confrontation" talk. I'm honestly not sure she'd be ready for that right now and would kind of be suspicious of her motives but... Feel like I should be prepared if she suggests it.

[Coconut]

What if she says "I want to go back to marriage counseling and give it another shot?"

I'm going to assume that at some point you stated to her that you would not be in an open M. So how about responding with something like:

I've told you I will not be in an open marriage; going to MC implies that I am trying to work on rebuilding our M.

[TxHubby]

What if she says "I want to go back to marriage counseling and give it another shot?" Not very likely at this point, IMO, but she had said something similar as recently as a couple of weeks ago in the immediate aftermath of the latest "reveal", but backed off of that when we had our "post-OM confrontation" talk. I'm honestly not sure she'd be ready for that right now and would kind of be suspicious of her motives but... Feel like I should be prepared if she suggests it.

First, she needs IC before you waste any money on MC. She's not ready for MC. It would fail.

Second, if R is a possibility for you then you have to show them a clear and well-defined path back to the marriage. List out everything that you need to stay married to this woman. Heck, have her list some things too. Then make sure both of you understand that words are absolutely meaningless. She, and you, have to put forth actions toward these things. Deviations from the path or half-assing any of the items will result in you immediately filing for D and seeing it through.

Once I was done with my WW and was preparing to move on for good she begged, pleaded, groveled, etc. for just one more chance. That's when I enumerated everything that she, and I, had to do to get on a path back to marriage. I literally didn't consider myself married to her any longer, even though legally I was.

If you have decided to end the M then who cares if she asks for more therapy or not.

[hoosjim]

"I've told you I will not be in an open marriage; going to MC implies that I am trying to work on rebuilding our M."

To which her response would almost certainly be: "This is not an open marriage... I am not in touch with OM, have not seen him in over four weeks and have not been in any kind of contact for over two weeks."

I, of course, cannot vouch for the veracity of ^^^, though I have no proof or even any kind of tangible suspicion otherwise. Of course, OTOH, aside from turning on her phone's family tracker (which can actually be somewhat imprecise), telling me her phone password, and keeping me updated about her whereabouts on a regular basis, (and, allegedly, contacting OM to cut contact-- somewhat confirmed via my confrontation with OM) she has not really done anything all that concrete to prove to me she is trustworthy. Would be very easy for her to be engaging in contact with OM without me knowing, especially since I am not, other than what she has voluntarily done with her phone, monitoring her.

I guess it all sort of gets back to "what I am waiting for" from her. I haven't filed for divorce in the aftermath of the "continued phone contact" revelation from two weeks ago, though I have "pulled back". She has said she "wont move out". I have claimed the "preferred" bedroom. I am in the situation of the door still being, to most appearances, open. If she seems sincere about the counseling, that's a sticky response to have to make. Prolly best to say I "have difficulty trusting her motives and am just not comfortable doing that right now."(?)

[Tobias]

If that is her response could you not ask: okay so right now there is NC, but do you desire to date/see/sleep other people besides me?

If her answer is no I would say MC might be worthwhile.

It seems this BFF is indeed a possible problem.

[hoosjim]

Thanks, coconut.

For me, the really frustrating thing at this point is that I think that, left to her own devices, she might actually have come around by now. Unfortunately, her closest confidante and the largest influence on her life BY FAR is her wayward bff. That is a lifelong friendship and she has gotten it into her mind that bff "really has it together" and that "everything always works out for her" (just ignore the three affairs, one with husbands best friend, alcohol abuse, occasional drug use and broken marriage, okay?) and that bff "just really wants her (my W) to be happy." They talk and text constantly, and oh btw for anyone who hasn't been following my sitch, bff has become good friends with the OM in my scenario, is ticked at me for being "controlling" and invading my W's "privacy", and has, if not actively cheer-led the A, at the very least facilitated/enabled it at times. Even if bff is not actively serving as a go-between currently between W and OM, I don't really see how it's possible give the dynamics and frequent communication that stuff wouldn't leak through: "Oh, I saw OM the other day, he looked nice..." That, and, of course, the fact that bff has an extremely jaded view of mmarriage and commitment (and of me) and is almost certainly not interested in talking my W into "doing the right thing", but would rather entice her to "come out and drink with me" which my W does on a fairly regular basis.

Really, really, really unfavorable relationship for my marriage. Many moons ago, when W and I were first dating and had a period where we were apart (my now-W got cold feet and pulled way back), her bff was EXTREMELY instrumental in getting us back together. She has ALOT of influence on my W who, for some reason, looks up to her even though her (bff's) life is a bit of a train-wreck.

And, yes, I know if I am GAL-ing, etc., etc. then I wont obsess so much about what my W (and her bff) are up to, but... It's hard enough knowing she is dealing with this limerance/affair-infatuation thing (even if she is, currently, upholding NC) without also having this really bad and persuasive outside influence to deal with.

As I've said before, I really think it will take a miracle from God to turn her heart, and if that' what happens that's where I am placing the credit

It seems this BFF is indeed a possible problem.

Yup. And a (perhaps) intractable one. In our earlier go-round with counseling, the MC had actually said "that's a relationship that you may have to give up" to which W responded "well that definitely ain't happening."

And the subsequent firestorm surrounding the outing of that same BFF's affair with her husband's (my own good friend) former best friend and the multiple friendships that that has destroyed along with the turmoil it has caused to my W's bff's children (one of whom is seriously emotionally messed up by it) has not phased my W at all: "But she's as happy as I've ever seen her..." Well, I guess that makes it all okay.

[Zues126]

I understand the feelings towards bff.

My XW BD'd me shortly after an evening with my sister. They had gone out together, drank a bunch of wine, and apparently my sister had explained her theory of life which involved 'if you're not happy then leave'. I should note that my sister left her husband for no apparent reason and has had a series of 5 year relationships that are hot/cold at all times. She believes 'everyone should just be happy'.

Later, when I learned that my XW had been with a number of men while I was sleeping in my friend's basement and black out drinking to the point of waking up with unknown injuries, I found out my sister had referred to this as just 'some summer flings' and 'letting loose'.

Later I had a difficult decision in the aftermath of my XW's attempted suicide. I came back to the house to watch the kids while she was in the hospital. I found XW's cell phone and was torn about whether to read the messages. I called my DB coach who advised me that it was IMPERATIVE that I read the messages as I was going to be deciding if my children were safe in that home and that privacy was out the window in this situation. Well, I was shocked to see the exchanges between XW and my sister. Then, when my sister called me and I asked her about them, she immediately got in touch with XW who was at the hospital to get onto facebook messenger via cloud and delete everything. This was evidence I was planning on using to potentially protect my children and my sister was concerned about covering her own a$$ and was upset about the invasion of privacy.

Clearly by me getting carried away it is a distasteful memory.

The consequence is that I am very arm's length with my sister today. It's been over 3 years and we don't interact too much. Since I have children I have made a point to have my sister see the kids for a couple of visits...a walk, root them on in a chess tournament. But while I will make it a point for their kids to at least know their aunt, she is not welcome in my house. I will not be letting my kids spend 1:1 time with her or go on trips out of town with her (if XW allows this that's fine, but I'm not facilitating it). Oh, I forgot, turns out my sister is now getting remarried. I don't even know if I can bring myself to go to the wedding.

I love my sister. I want her to at least know my children. I don't have any poison in my heart for my sister. But I look at her as a cancer I can't accept in my life without radiation proof gloves.

You are in a difficult spot. What would the right thing to do be if she wanted to R but didn't want to reduce contact with BFF? That's a doozie. If I was already divorced there is no chance I would consider R without no-contact from such an enemy of my marriage. But if I was still married then I wouldn't let that stop me from honoring my commitment. I might not be able to open up emotionally again to my partner, and I would make it clear why, but I wouldn't walk. I would simply honor my duties as the husband as best I could. If she decided I was too aloof and stuffy and filed D, then I would move forward on my own. But I simply couldn't be emotionally intimate with a person that would get that intimate with someone that destructive.

My best friend, who I talk to an hour a day...I told him today that I had a room in my house that was his should his wife ever ask for a divorce. But I also told him that if HE initiated a divorce he wasn't welcome. Ain't no one got time for that.

Yeah, I'm going to find a reason to be busy the weekend my sister gets married again. I went to her wedding already. It was the one where she married a great guy. I was somewhat touched by the ceremony and the version of "In My Life" they sang. Not again.

Good luck bro.