Just wanted to let you know I've copied down those words today. It's something I struggle with, the anger, the hurt, and it helped, to see what you wrote.
It's just not helpful to say someone is gullible without offering further information.
This process is incredibly hard. We should be supportive on here rather than be critical and cynical. Unless there is a broader point to be made.
Obviously I know her beings friends with OM is an issue. If you read my very short (insert sarcasm) posts I always say that I trust her that they are friends but that I don't necessarily see how that would work if we have a future together.
Now if I post on here that I am looking forward to my W hanging out with OM or how I am planning a family get away with all three of us going together THEN maybe I deserve to be called gullible. But right now when I have made it clear I am following my gut and I know I take a risk...to basically say I am gullible is reinforcing the worst possible fear I already may have.
It isn't just doodler there are others who basically come in here and regardless of the situation basically encourage people to take a hardline stance. To me this is a direct violation of what DR advises. In several other threads you see people taking a more compassionate stance and they have made steps forward. Lots of others who took a hardline stance are now actually divorced. So to me a lot of it feels like self fulfilling prophecy.
Each of us has unique elements of the sitch. Perhaps the overarching approach is similar but there are many nuances.
So I am just wondering what the point is on coming here if (outside of AnotherStander and 25yearsmlc) the feedback is basically: you are not making progress if OM is involved. If I wasn't aware of that or oblivious to that fact sure go ahead. But to basically say: nah man you are gullible or nah man she IS cake eating (whereas we have no idea what our S are going through internally) or nah man she is just waiting for the right moment. That is just not helpful.
Like I said. Several folks on here seem angry (and perhaps bitter).
If I am gullible so be it. I can accept myself a lot better if I end up divorced than if W had left back in April. Part of that feeling better is my approach but also from actions I receive from W.
I think, Tobias, this is one of those horribly complicated nightmare sitchs where we all go through a process of trying to see clearly in the dark. I think we all have lots of emotions, they move around, and sometimes I know that has shaded my posts.
You have the right to choose your stance. You know your W and your M before this chaos. I'm sure a lot of people thought I was very gullible to stay in limbo with my disappearing H as long as I did, or that I am foolish to love him even though I hate what he has done to his life and mine. I couldn't save my M and I miss my H, but what was always important to me was to feel that, no matter what happened, I had kept faith with my own values and treated the person I loved for almost 20 years with compassion.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
That last sentence is what I hold onto. PLUS the fact that my W has continued and in increasing manner interacted in a positive manner.
I think for a lot of people it feels fast. It is absolutely fast. But I also think that my W did held up hope for years and she finally sees that her hope wasn't misguided. I also caught the A right at the start. Yes, they had sex... twice. Yes, they were right in the butterfly stage of discovering a new person. But because of OM's work schedule they didn't have a chance to meet during regular hours. He wasn't able to deliver on a lot of her other emotional needs. Right when she was exploring that as an option she saw me changing for the better. She was skeptical but saw consistency.
In many ways HER actions almost come across as if she read DR and is following up. I cannot really explain it. She doesn't let situations escalate and instead tries to get a balance back. THAT's what is giving me hope and fosters compassion for me.
Our MC has also stabilized a lot of the anxiety and tension.
She felt trapped and not empowered. And has increasingly empowered herself and saw me no longer as obstacle to that empowerment or even as something that would disappear if she finally put herself first.
Besides we aren't there yet.
People have the right to be skeptical about what I wrote but I follow my gut...
Your sitch definitely sounds like mine in the beginning. I caught the A in the first 2 weeks. They had sex a few times on a cruise and then it was text and phone conversations in the middle of the night from that point. But it was apparently enough to have my W still contacting him months later. There is no real connection or anything these two have in common.
My W being the romantic and very emotional person she is might be rationalizing her behavior by saying that her cheating on me might be some greater person. As if ahe was meant to be with this guy. Even though he has 3 kids and a W. Not to mention he has a history of cheating on his W.
W would never just admit that she messed up. And just work things out with me. So follow your gut, if you see improvement. But from what I have observed first hand. OM presence will keep that fog up.
It's just not helpful to say someone is gullible without offering further information.
This process is incredibly hard. We should be supportive on here rather than be critical and cynical. Unless there is a broader point to be made.
Tobias,
You're absolutely correct, we should be supportive and criticism should be offered in a constructive manner rather than being terse and offensive. I'm usually rushed for time so I often write short and simple comments, but in many cases a good response requires more than a snarky remark. My comments are meant to be supportive, but I realize that my comments are often unnecessarily edgy.
In addition, it's been a long time since I was in the throws of a pending divorce and I've forgotten how difficult and agonizing it can be when you're in the thick of a potentially life changing event. I tend to have little patience when I feel like a spouse is being used as a doormat. I was often a doormat, so when I believe someone else is suffering through that kind of abhorrent behavior then I often respond emotionally and with vigor. In the vernacular, it makes me want to beat the living sh*t out of an OM that would do that to another man (via the man's wife). I'm guessing that response is due to my blue collar roots.
As for your situation, I believe tossing your wife out would greatly improve your chances of a lasting reconciliation, but I'm divorced and I'm I wrong far more often than I'm right. And feel free to toss anything I say right back at me.
So there you have it. I agree that the hard-line is not the way of DB, but I've always maintained that I'm terrible at DB. Just think of the h3ll my XW must've gone through for 16 years.
I just don't see it as being very productive right now.
As to being used as a doormat I highly doubt that. The only benefit my W has for this right now is that her colleagues don't know there are challenges and the fact that if she lives on her own it will be rougher financially on her. In fact, any time I even suggested how I felt by all this she made a real effort to comfort me and validate that I have worth as a man. That maybe two good people just cannot make it work (she hasn't said that in weeks...which makes me think she is moving closer and closer back towards me.)
Instead she isn't cold, mean or distant anymore. She does a lot of 180s on her own and validates that I am making improvements. She now openly apologized about having sex with someone else and expressed she felt shame and now guilt about it. She has NOT corrected the IC when she said this is closure and a path forward for us. After the first MC she mentioned how she wasn't ready to let OM go after the counselor said that probably should happen. And three weeks later is when I broke down and said I see no future for our MC with OM involved which then led my W to explain her fear and why she wants OM around. That is when IC started for her and three weeks later she apologizes for this.
Honestly, I don't know how much contact she has with OM but it's at most a few texts every now and then. I am positive our MC brings it up to her in IC and I wouldn't be surprised if there is pretty much NC. There is just no reason for me to bring it up. What do I gain? If she went NC my W just got reinforced she messed up and I am insecure about it. If she is still talking she feels ashamed and perhaps guilty.
Kicking her out right now wouldn't make me feel better. It would increase the chances more people would know about what happened (which decreases our chances to reconcile). It might make my W realize she needs to openly recommit and reconcile but she is kind of doing that right now through her actions.
Most importantly I needed to do 180s and her seeing those help us reconnect.
Imagine I kick her out and she gets the job offer. It just further complicates things.
It's just not helpful to say someone is gullible without offering further information.
And you are correct! And I'm not trying to pick on Doodler, he is very helpful on these forums, but I was just trying to encourage you to be more direct in expressing yourself. For me as a recovering sufferer of NGS, I've found that being direct can be quite liberating, because the problem with being passive/ aggressive is I often misinterpreted or misunderstood someone, so I would switch to indirect behavior to express my dissatisfaction but then that just made the other person angry and so we would continue on, angry at each other, over something that was more than likely a misunderstanding anyway. When I've started being more direct, IE saying something like "wow, you really offended me with that statement" then usually the person apologizes and explains what they -really- meant and it's resolved and we move on, both happier for the convo :-) So good job!
Originally Posted By: Tobias
Instead she isn't cold, mean or distant anymore. She does a lot of 180s on her own and validates that I am making improvements. She now openly apologized about having sex with someone else and expressed she felt shame and now guilt about it. She has NOT corrected the IC when she said this is closure and a path forward for us. After the first MC she mentioned how she wasn't ready to let OM go after the counselor said that probably should happen. And three weeks later is when I broke down and said I see no future for our MC with OM involved which then led my W to explain her fear and why she wants OM around. That is when IC started for her and three weeks later she apologizes for this.
You are right to see that as progress! Like Michele says in DR, recon isn't typically something where you see big moves, it's a series of baby steps. You've seen a lot of progress from her, she still has a long way to go but it seems you are quite patient so that will serve you well while she's trying to sort things out in her head. An active A would complicate things, but if there is one you will eventually find out about it and can decide how to change your approach then.
