I sort of take 25yearsmlc's take on this: I don't accept any disrespect towards me so if she wanted to hang out I would bring it up BUT she hasn't seen him in over a month, she barely even brings him up. Instead she went from "you pushed me towards him" to "well I regret how things ended up" to "maybe I shouldn't have slept with him" to now "sorry I had sex with someone else". With the latter she showed genuine remorse and guilt which she hadn't quite shown. The MC knows that she talked to OM as a friend and I NOW know in her IC W and MC discuss how to approach apologizing to me. I DOUBT the MC doesn't also encourage her to go NC. We already know that W has said once she recommits she knows what to do. She hasn't said she is in love with me but she hasn't said that she wants out of the marriage either (and she used to say that almost weekly the past few years).
Her actions and behaviors over the past few weeks all confirm we are on the road back. It's awkward, difficult and at times rough but for the most part these past few weeks have been amazing. But there is almost a decade to be overturned. This will take time. We may not get there.
Do I want W to go NC? Absolutely. Do I believe her that it may be NOW a friendship? Yes. Do I believe this is something that can continue? I am not sure BUT OM isn't going to leave Florida. Honestly, the moment I stopped worrying was the moment I felt better about myself and have been way calmer. (the MC has helped tremendously) In turn W has reduced her fear of me and increasingly has been vulnerable around me.
I have been pretty consistently changing how I act as a husband since mid April HOWEVER, I had emotional meltdowns and it's usually about OM. Now that I have moved from really being bothered by it (the worst they do is text and I am roughly 85% convinced it's non sexual) I have been able to do 180s on most things I needed to do 180s on.
My W went from laughing in April at the thought that we could go to MC and could turn it around to now openly looking at how quickly I could move with her IF she gets the job offer. If we shouldn't believe anything they say but trust half their actions I don't see ANY action as a problem (other than perhaps the non-NC).
W also went from feeling powerless and controlled by me to now increasingly empowered and she sees I encourage her. She now sees (thanks to MC) that most of what she sees as controlling was genuine love and affection I had for her. I need to stop "rescuing" her all the time but she is now hearing it from a MC she trusts and appreciates.
Are we there yet? hell no!
But she and OM are NOT together. Were they creating a life together when I discovered the PA? Absolutely.
Tobias, you've certainly expressed some great DB'ing techniques here and it sounds like you're doing fabulous at listening and validating, so well done!
But like TXH said, there seems to be a big unknown here, the elephant in the room is whether she's still in an A or not. I know you said you didn't want to give her an ultimatum, but you also said something along the lines of her saying that "she knows what she needs to do". Meaning she knows she needs to go NC with OM, but she's not willing to do that yet. So there's still some cake-eating going on there.
Maybe the counseling is getting through to her, clearly she was expressing guilt about what she's done so maybe she's starting to own that. Hopefully with time and IC she'll get through it and recommit to the M.
But until then, your best bet is time and space and GAL. It's hard to tell since all we can see are your posts here, but are you feeding W a lot of time and attention (bad) or are you giving her space and GALing for yourself (good)?
I only say that because MC does not work if either party is involved with someone else. Neither does DB'ing. Affair fog is impervious to these things. You can only work on fixing it with any chance of success if the A has stopped and the fog is dissipating. I tried to crack that fog for years. It was a waste of time. It wasn't until I gave up and moved on that the fog dissipated and THEN we could fix the M.
Really, I should let my W log in here and answer that ;-)
but I have given her quite a bit of space compared to what I normally did. If we do things together roughly 75% of the time she initiates it. But often now at home I allow her to have time for herself. It's her who often wants to do things. Several times that involves other people as well.
As far as cake eating goes. I am fairly positive that part is over. But of course I have no guarantee for that. It just doesn't make sense to me if she is still in pursuit of an A why she would do the things she has done lately. She could have simply done the bare minimum. She could have also insisted on seeing him. She could have moved out and while that would mean she would have to readjust her life to some degree it would greatly make her life easier if she really wanted to spent time with OM.
I believe her when she said she felt lonely and thought I didn't care about her. I also believe her that she felt trapped and controlled and how OM right now is the only person who doesn't know me. It's THIS component that gives me the biggest reason to show grace and compassion and not insist she stops talking to him.
As to OM I also believe W when she says he has offered to go NC but she asked him not to because she was afraid. When I recognized legitimate fear in her words when she told the MC this I decided to stop focusing on OM. But it seems that role was taken over by the IC (which essentially started mid July). W said she had to work with IC to shift from shame to guilt.
I do agree with others on here that OM being around isn't ideal. But quite frankly it's not what I am focused on. My main goal is to show W what she would walk away from. She has already said how much more she likes who I have become and she has recognized her own complicity in where our MR became jeopardized. She validates how much I changed and she seems to recognize I am not sacrificing anything about myself in doing so.
Let's also grant her some patience. I did NOT expect her to apologize (and do so sincerely) this soon. I expected that I would have to ask her before recommitting to her. She said yesterday how she thinks we are getting along way better so I am taking it step by step.
If I NOW insist on NC with OM I also worry she might get afraid again or she might become angry. I just don't see any gain in this. There is also no way for me to check that there is NC unless I insist on checking her phone and computer...and I really don't want to NOR does that seem the right moment.
If she isn't openly disrespecting me or mocking me (things she had done throughout the years and early on in April and May). If she isn't hanging out with OM (or expressing a desire to do so). If she isn't mean or cold or distant towards me? What reason do I have to bring it up?
What if she told OM after she told me the apology on Friday to go NC? What if that had already happened? What if she isn't ready to say that because OBVIOUSLY if she admits to going NC she would have to admit she is ready to recommit?
I probably bring it up on Saturday during my IC. But at the same time I trust our MC to work with W on this during her own IC.
Most importantly, I accept responsibility for what I failed to provide in the MR. Since W is doing this to a significant degree as well I am honestly not worried about anything other than continue to work on myself and continuing to present myself in the best way possible. I am learning how to also focus on my own needs.
I am not informed enough about your marital history to know if your w has a reason to feel as distant as she did.
But I believe nearly every wife justifies an affair -maybe more than most h's.
I think it's rarer for a woman to have an A wherein she says "it was just sex/didn't mean anything." YES I know that's a sexist generalization, and I'm sorry about that.
So in fairness to your w, maybe there are things you both need to prove about your marriage potential before she feels all in.
AND I hate saying this^^^.
It makes you feel as if you are in the "Pick me" dance w/OM, and that sukks.
So I have 2 questions for you.
1) what would be different/better in your m, going forward?
and
2) what are you willing to tolerate? Do you have a point beyond which you won't go?
Try to figure that out before it gets crossed, rather than deciding as you go along.
When the lines are blurred or shifting, it gets a lot harder to enforce boundaries b/c you sort of don't have any.
Make sense?
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
She did have a valid reason. I recognize that now. I used to focus on my intent and her behavior but I can definitely see how she felt distant. Ironically, I have felt distanced from HER. There were moments where because I walk fast I literally opened the door, walked through it, ASSUMED she was right there and let the door shut RIGHT in front her. So that happened a day before she actually met up with OM for the first time. So I am not saying I am to blame for the A...that is on HER but I certainly contributed to her feeling a certain way.
My W. did initially say it was just sex BUT she also wanted to like that person and be on friendly terms. If it was just a meathead she probably would have much easier broken it off. She immediately said there is a lot of things about him that didn't make him BF material and with her desire to leave the State I do believe she was mostly interested in sex with him while having the ability to also talk about things.
She also no longer uses the justification that she did early were she claimed that we were already separated and so she didn't do anything wrong. It's all of that and what I wrote yesterday that makes me react this particular way.
1) What would be better? Lots of things. And in many ways a lot of little things improved (just scroll through my posts). It's just that the label of being in love, and her wearing her ring isn't there yet.
2) I am willing to tolerate the current situation of trying to figure things out and her giving it a real shot (which to me it's clear she has). I would be willing to tolerate a physical separation but I no longer feel she feels the need for that (due to her feelings of safety) unless of course she gets that job offered but than it would be a different story.
Her own boundary which she has NOT broken (I know because she doesn't drive and doesn't leave at random moments in the night anymore.) But her own boundary was she wouldn't hang out with OM (as friends even) unless we are in a good place and definitely not after we have had a rough night. It's this statement and her subsequent month long action on this that makes me sort of trust OM is being more of a friend than anything.
And like I said just as you don't see anything beyond what I type. I have no idea what she discusses with OM, with her friends (including her best friend who is also a counselor and who was aware of OM), and in the counseling. All I can work with is what I am presented with. My W was really afraid and feared for her safety. Whether I can be blamed for that doesn't matter. She sees it as coming from me. The more I removed my own behavior from making her feel this way the closer she has gotten. To the point where she now admits once again that I CAN calm her down when she is anxious or stressed.
A LOT of little moments now it's my W bringing up something that gives me information about what set her off in the past. She now recognizes it's not always my intent. So whatever she feels for me, she has chosen to no longer let her get angry or upset at me and in fact uses energy to explain it to me.
We aren't there yet. Not by a long shot. But I saw what happened last Friday as a MAJOR building block forward. She has expressed her guilt for what happened (her words) and she said it took her a bit to get over her shame of what happened. The MC has told her in IC that shame isn't the right way to operate from but guilt is a more healthier approach (I am paraphrasing). So in her words she hasn't recommitted to me but her actions tell me otherwise!
Should I be cautious? Yes. However, part of the issue is my nature of being overly excited. Even if we are happily married I would need to be aware of that.
No. Because I instantly knew something was off. My gut told me there was someone else almost the same day it started. I just believed her when she said there wasn't.
But believe what you want. I read in DR to observe what is happening and that is what has guided my actions. I followed my gut and it has given me more than what I could have hoped for.
Feel free to remain cynical. Skeptical and whatnot. I choose to focus on grace and compassion not anger. A lot of folks on here are angry at their WW and perhaps they deserved that but there is no happiness to be gained with anger.
I think the point that posters are trying to get across is for arguments sake let's say your wife is no longer in an A with OM and they are just friends. Do you know how difficult that will be to move forward in your relationship?
Read Stormchasers or Pinns posts on how difficult it is w/o their OMs involved at all anymore.
IMO the friendship has to end when someone has stepped outside the marriage. IMO that should be a boundary.
No. Because I instantly knew something was off. My gut told me there was someone else almost the same day it started. I just believed her when she said there wasn't.
But believe what you want. I read in DR to observe what is happening and that is what has guided my actions. I followed my gut and it has given me more than what I could have hoped for.
Feel free to remain cynical. Skeptical and whatnot. I choose to focus on grace and compassion not anger. A lot of folks on here are angry at their WW and perhaps they deserved that but there is no happiness to be gained with anger.
This might be my final post here.
Hang in there brother, if someone says something that offends you then call them out on it! I think a lot of us come here with NGS and a big part of NGS is passive/ aggressive tendencies. So maybe a 180 for you on that is to tell that person (or people) they've offended you instead of packing up and leaving
