Fair point about controlling, OwnIt, but I also think I have the right to my own boundaries. Perhaps I just need some control over bits of my own life and psyche. You're also right about listening, but the selfishness of MLC does not change the fact that this is my life too.
If it isn't a dialogue, I don't need to be involved. He can write a letter or talk to other people. I can walk away without an explanation now when I couldn't have done even a few months ago.
If it is a dialogue, I need to feel a bit safer than I do. To avoid controlling the space to feel safe, I need a 3rd party there to do that.
To keep my focus on GAL and my own goals, I need it to have some structure and to sit on the edge of my life not the centre.
To not lose the strength and detachment I have fought so hard to gain, I need an endpoint in sight. 2 years of confusion and chaos is enough. Hence, my choice of boundary that, for me, when we are legally divorced, I will have no contact with him of any kind so I really let it go.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
Hmmm, I'll muse on if there is a middle ground which is less controlling...
Maybe focus on the £ stuff and have a 'draft in pencil' for talking. The £ stuff will probably take a month and who knows how we'll feel then. He might change his mind about talking. I might change my mind about being bothered enough to listen because I'm ambivalent now.
The one thing I do need though is to move forward and let go. It's not good for me to be divorced and pausing to talk and pick over the rubble of something that is done and buried. There's no point talking about a dead M or why someone hurt you if there is no current or future relationship. Unless you need it to heal. He may, but that's his business. I've had to heal without it and I don't want to go backwards. There's no point to that for me and it will keep me connected to someone/something which is a ghost. It is funny because for 18 months, I would have done almost anything to get him to talk to me and tell me what the hell had happened...
What is different for me - I was a bit controlling because my H was a bit Mr Nice Guy passive, that was part of our dynamic and I was always more impatient than him. I've learned a lot of patience in the last 2 years though! In the past, I would have come up with a solution and persuaded him to take it. Now, I think I'm saying these are my boundaries. They are about respect, trust and safety for me. If you want to talk, we need a solution that honours those boundaries but I'm ok with whatever choice you make either way. The consequence of not finding a solution which honours my boundaries is we don't talk and that's fine too. Because another feature of our shared past is that I cared much more about his needs and what was difficult for him, and I wasn't honest enough about my own. Some of that is about respect too, that secretly I thought I was stronger and braver than him.
It is a 180 for me to say clearly this is what I need right now to do that and I'm ok with whatever choice you make. I guess it will depend on how important it is to him to talk, for whatever reason. What's most important to me now is to be treated with respect and equal value, and to not be sucked back into a limbo waiting on his actions. Does that make sense?
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
Prodded by OwnIt and Cadence to think about my own boundaries and contribution to weakening our M (without excusing my STBXH's actions or mindreading, so no idea if he'd agree):
- lost my physical/attractiveness confidence and didn't have enough sex and playing - played my half of a 'poor old H' game and focused too much on his needs and was not honest about my own - did not have clear boundaries that I knew or could express between me/him/we so him/we got much more attention - mind reading when it would have been better to ask, drink a STFU smoothie, listen/validate without jumping in to interpret or fix when I didn't actually understand the core issue and often he didn't either - fixing and 'poor old H' game meant that I took emotional responsibility for his monkeys and the consequences of him avoiding them - did not focus enough time and energy on me, my work and my life as the 'high-value woman' that I had been in the first half of our M
Hmmm, plenty to work on there!
What do I see as the strengths of our M? - genuine delight in each other as people and in our individual achievements, a deep friendship - good team based on respecting and using our differences - really enjoyed talking to each other and spending time together, the other's opinion really mattered and we liked to share info and were always very transparent about money, friendships, activities etc - when we had sex, it was emotional, intimate and fantastic and I felt adored and he seemed to feel powerful and more like a man - we found each other physically attractive and liked to be close to each other - my H thought I was a treasure to be cherished and was proud to be my H and vice versa - a deep sense of safety, trust and commitment - we liked to do things that just pleased the other person, we were generous with each other rather than judging or trading off - it felt as if there was a deep unspoken spiritual connection between us, something without words but very tangible - we laughed a lot, played and teased each other in a nice way
Gosh, no wonder BD was a smack in the face! Although to be fair, a series of life challenges had created space between us for about a year pre BD, I think - illness, job stuff, bereavements.
Musing more about talking...if it happens and it is a dialogue...I don't see any point in talking about our M when it is dead and we're not trying to reconcile. Pointless because there is nothing useful to do with the shared learning. Our individual reflections, yes, but the uniqueness of our M was made up of the patterns between the two of us.
Talking about BD/WTF crisis and how we both handled it...I suppose that's about understanding enough to heal and saying goodbye. It's a funeral not a care plan.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
And to be really honest, I know I loved my H and I know why I loved and appreciated him and our M so much. I still see him and our M as a great blessing to feel gratitude about.
I have no idea if he ever loved me, or why or if he ever actually honestly valued me or our M. Or if he would see me or our M as a blessing, a curse, a lie or a terrible mistake. No idea. Based on his actions, doesn't look like he saw much value in either me or our M, but it doesn't change how I feel about it/him even now.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
Two options: 1. Mediation - would take about 3 meetings and 6 weeks, would need to sit in room together to reach an agreement. 2. STBXH send missing info to my L. She and I talk, ask for what we want. He agrees. Could be quicker and avoids sitting in a room together. But his track record of responding promptly to L's letters or his own L is not good to date.
It occurs to me that if I wanted to gently keep the outside possibility of a reconciling door open (and I'm not sure I do), then there is a benefit to a process that takes a few weeks but needs us to see each other. What do you all think?
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
IMO I don't think either of the two scenarios does anything neither positive nor negative regarding a possible future reconsiliation. If you aren't too uncomfortable sitting in a room with him, and you are able to keep your calm, I'd go with that option.
M:46 WXW:40 T:20 M:13 D3,D8,D10 BD:11/12/16 D:12/14/16 OM confirmed 01/20/17
I'm not a fan of mediation in these situations. Here in the US the mediation would be some clown who knows nothing about us, the facts of the case, and likely even the law. We pay said clown about $5k for the day. We each pay our lawyers, I'm estimating $2,400 per side to attend and likely another $3,000 to prepare in advance and do the mediator's statement. We sit in different rooms and the clown passes our demands back and forth. No thanks.
I like the second option. He says he wants to wrap it up. He filed. Much cheaper and more targeted. No need for all the mediator games.
I could have written your top list verbatim. The second one would differ.
Treasur, I can't advise you on the legal aspect but I had to pipe up about this:
Quote:
I have no idea if he ever loved me, or why or if he ever actually honestly valued me or our M. Or if he would see me or our M as a blessing, a curse, a lie or a terrible mistake. No idea. Based on his actions, doesn't look like he saw much value in either me or our M, but it doesn't change how I feel about it/him even now.
Do you know how it's so easy to see when it's others situations but not our own? Well, from where I'm sitting, I'm appalled at your unkind inner dialogue.
Treasur, you are a genuine and kind person, and you are worthy of love. I am certain that H loved you and valued your marriage as much as he was able. I'm certain you've read reconciliation stories, and those women were left, too. Were they not loved? Was it not real? Why do you believe yourself to be a special case?
The new shiny candy in the form of OW looked so appealing, because she doesn't know him and can only admire him and reflect back how he wants to see himself. She is a mirror and she was chosen because of how he views himself in her eyes. And she is not a well person herself if she is attracted to the MLCer. All of this wonderfulness will have to come to an end, because it is built upon smoke and mirrors, and not upon a real foundation. You had that. You had the foundation and it was real.
I am urging you, Treasur, to make decisions from a place of strength. You have faced so much over the past two years, and you are incredibly strong. Your wounded inner child who is sensing danger is trying to direct your actions, and I think that's a mistake. Resilient adult you should be making decisions.
Your chosen shield seems to be assuming the worst and then adapting to that, under the belief you cannot incur more pain that way. While I fully understand how that seems like a great idea to you, I agree with the person who said you don't seem like you are ready to close the door. I think you WANT TO BE the person who closes the door, because you believe it allows you control to limit pain. But what if it also limits the possibility of happiness? Your H seems to be following a very familiar path, one that I've read time and time again. One of my strengths in life is identifying patterns, and I see one here.
I think your main drive is to protect yourself, but I think there are other ways to do that, like remembering who you are, how lovable you are, and how amazingly resilient you are.
I think you are afraid of opening yourself up to more hurt and rejection, and while I understand that (and feel like I want to hop a flight across the pond to protect you from any more pain), I would not understand why he'd want to talk to you to offer up more rejection. Based on what he's said, I think he has probably experienced some enlightenment about his actions and wants to share that with you. I also think he wants to know if you could ever forgive him, as he's having a hard time forgiving himself, but he will not be as open/forthcoming about this as you'd hope. I think he feels shame, and that's the reason he wanted phone calls, so he would not feel so seen and vulnerable.
There are two people with fears here, that's for certain.
Treasur, I know that there are parts of you that are screaming at you that things only turn around for other people, and that he's happy and you shouldn't be foolish. And I just don't think you should listen to those voices as I don't think they protect you. I think you should listen to the ones that tell you that you are absolutely worthy of being loved, and you are someone that someone else might regret leaving, and if others are seeing possibilities, you should take a chance.
If I were in your place, I would feel terrified. Please don't think I'm telling you that there's something wrong with you for your reaction. But I'd want others who have more detachment than I had to push me out of my comfort zone, because that's always a good thing. No matter what happens, you will be reminded that you are strong and resilient and you can handle absolutely anything.
Ok, well, update. Really a case of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory. What should have been a short conversation to arrange a time & place to meet on Sat in order to talk about a process for next steps turned into a 2 hour wall.
My STBXH didn't want to meet on Sat but 'would because I'd said I wanted to'. Said he wanted to have an 'open' conversation after we agreed the financial stuff...but hadn't given any thought to how that would happen and seemed a bit surprised that I might feel that a M and almost 20 years warranted more than a 45 minute chat over a cup of coffee during the week that he would be waiting to get the decree absolute papers back from the Court.
So, although he said he wanted to talk, in reality his priorities (having procrastinated and avoided everything for a year or more) are actually to get a financial agreement and be a divorced man.And he had thought we'd have a quick chat and then never see each other again, just 'move on'.
I lost my temper a bit (understandable) but pointed out that what seemed to have shifted is his ability to do paperwork. What was the same as the last two years was his inability to see me or our long marriage as being real, with things of value that deserved to be treated with empathy and respect. I said that if he could not remember me as a person or feel any emotion about his behaviour, it was pointless to have the conversation and demeaning to me to try to drag humanity and empathy out of him, so better not to bother.
How I feel? Angry and hurt, and back to a bit of mind***ked. I genuinely have no idea how the warm, affectionate man who loved me so much became this obscene excuse for a human being. I don't know how anyone could feel ok, after 18 years, treating anyone as he has treated me. It hurts to be rejected again and hurts to know that to him I am just untidy business to be flushed down the toilet.
So, what have I learned? He popped his head up and sounded like he was a real human being again. He isn't. Still in Replay, still a cold monster with a missing empathy chip, doesn't love me, doesn't want me, doesn't think I'm worth anything at all, sees two decades as just being something to get over and done with...
I need to figure out a process that will be as low/no contact as possible and a really short timescale or back to the Court option we go. And I've learned that it hurts and I'm tired of hurting. And there is nothing left worth standing for. And that hurts too. So I need to deal with the practicalities in a way that protects me from hope, hurt and disappointment. I deserve to be treated with respect and kindness. The reality of our M deserves to be treated with respect. I won't beg someone to do either.
So, divorce with loud flushing noises and no remorse or honest explanation of what the hell happened to the man who loved me.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
