So, spoke to StBXH on phone for 2 hours. He really doesn't want to go to Court which doesn't surprise me, and wants to see if we can go to mediation to reach a financial agreement. It was a pretty calm conversation and both of us were relatively honest that we are struggling to trust each other.
What surprised me? He sounded more lifelike and rational, and I told him I could hear his voice sounded different. He said that 'it had taken him a long time to vanquish his demons, longer than he or anyone else had thought it would' but there had been a big shift recently. That he had assumed I would know that from his behaviour changing recently. He wants to 'get things done' so we can both 'move on from the mess he has created'. (I know this means financial stuff and assume he means finalising the divorce too.) Biggest surprise is that he wants to have a 'searingly honest conversation or series of conversations, because there are things I know I need to explain and talk about' (gulp) about how we got here but feels that he'll be constrained from being open if we're fighting legally about money. Biggest surprise for him? He said I sounded different, as if I want to 'move on' too. And that I said I needed to think about whether I still wanted to have the open conversation because I had come to terms some while ago that it would never happen.
We agreed that going to Court was a bad option for both of us. We agreed that we both want to resolve the financial stuff and might agree on having an open conversation about what has happened. What I want that he's nervous about is for us to meet first f2f so I can get a sense of who I'm dealing with, that it's a trust feeling thing for me not about getting into a big conversation. He's nervous that the only things we have to talk about are all big and I'll use what he says against him. Tbh, he's probably just nervous to see me in person for the first time in 10 months. I feel the same. It's a very weird situation and not one that either of us would have imagined before this crisis. So, we're both taking 24 hours to think about the sequence of steps and what we both will/can do and then will talk again tomorrow.
Feelings? It is an odd feeling to not trust someone who you trusted so much for almost 2 decades, but it is reality. As I said to him, when this crisis started I was balancing the person I'd known for 19 years vs the opposite version I was seeing in the first 9 months or so. Now I'm balancing how he has been for the last 21 months with v3 which has been around for about 6 weeks. He is obviously different. Sounds like a more logical adult version of who he was. Talks about responsibility but pretty unemotional, no sign of remorse really so I'm assuming that in his head the steps are financial mediation, followed by closure-type convos, followed by finalising D and riding off relieved into the sunset with OW. For me? I feel quietly heartbroken in a corner of my heart that our love/M either wasn't important or was a price he is happy to pay for his breakthrough. That I'm surprised he wants to do big open conversations but I think it is about him feeling he has tried to explain/make amends to feel better about what he's done. I feel that I need to move on, although I see it differently I guess, and I need the financial agreement secured too. I'm surprised that he is surprised that I have let go of the rope and am reticent about re-opening a conversation. He may think we will be 'friends' of some sort post-D. I'm very clear that I won't see or speak to him again post-D.
Do I need to know why he threw our M and me under the hammer to move forward? I don't know.
Do I wish that I saw signs of remorse or love from him? Yes, I do. It feels so unfair to be thrown away as a cost of his mental wellbeing and so hard to accept that this new 'improved' version thinks nothing of me at all and has no wish to explore any option other than D. At the same time, why would I want a man who doesn't value or love me? I had one and he was lovely and I miss him, but this is a stranger to me and not a very nice stranger.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
I'm so sorry for all of your pain and uncertainty. My heart has broken several times over reading your story, but I also get a sense of strength and resolve from you. You are putting yourself first and I'm so happy to see that. Your seaside home sounds lovely and peaceful.
I will be very interested to see what happens with your H. I'm sure you'll update us as soon as you're able.
I think you're doing a great deal of mind-reading to try to feel like you're protected from more of H's rug-yanking; it sounds like you want to accept that worse-case scenarios will happen so you won't have to feel vulnerable to him again. I understand that motivation, but I think it would be good for you to accept that you really have no idea what he wants and that you're going to be absolutely fine no matter what the conversation brings.
Try not to mind-read and trust yourself that you can handle whatever may come, because you can. Expecting the worst isn't a good strategy, because you will be reacting to your expectation rather than being in the moment and reacting to what he is actually saying. It is in this way that humans tend to contribute to creating the scenarios that they most fear.
Instead, just be open and okay with the fact that you don't know what will happen. You don't need to prepare for the worst because you are already stronger than you know.
Thank you cadence - I am wearing Andrew P's mind reading turban, aren't I?
In my defence, I suppose I'm basing it on what I hear and see. (And my H basically ran away and was a silent Vanisher for over a year which was possible because he'd taken a job in a new town 100 miles away). What I see is that he wants to talk. I see that he wants to resolve the financial legal stuff so I guess it seems fair to assume that he still wants a D and nothing else.
I've been heartbroken and in pain for a long time, and I lost my parents simultaneously, so it has been a lonely road. I had to let go of even the hope that I would ever see or speak to him again, or ever understand what had happened, because the hope was killing me. I guess I learned to beat hope out by forcing myself to look at the worst reality about him and try to start hoping for the bits of me and my life that I could control.
You're right though that I'm mind reading and expecting the worst, rather than just accepting that I don't know. Maybe I'm so tired of living in 'I don't know land' that it feels safer to not only expect the worst but make the worst happen because I can choose it?
I have survived the worst already, you're right about that too. Other than getting financially screwed, I've already lost everything and everyone that I didn't want to lose. How much worse could it be? I'll think about what you say before I speak to him tomorrow and see what being open-minded feels like. Thank you for the support though. It helps.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
I'm with Cadence. I think there are a lot of unknowns here. Why not resolve the financial stuff and listen to what he has to say. Maybe it's just me, but the unknown bad I can imagine is usually worse than the bad I know about.
I've read a lot of return stories (and I'm not saying that is what this is) on this and a lot of other sites. Often they make a big push for the end before trying to start over. I think they believe so strongly that they will be rejected that they can't bring themselves to ask to come back.
In my recent long conversation with my H the way he asked "you don't ever see us getting back together again" really felt like he thought there was no way I would consent to it and had written it off as a possibility. I also sometimes feel like the push to move near him is another way of checking whether I am open to that. Because I believe his town and his job are a big part of his issues, that answer for me will remain no.
Why not come to terms on the financial stuff and then sit down face to face and hear what he has to say. You could always leave some openings without making yourself feel too vulnerable. Things like if I had it to do over again I would do things differently, I've owned up to the problems I brought to the marriage, I've been working a lot on self-improvement, etc.
Don't be so doom and gloom. Either you get it wrapped up, which is a good way to work on ending the pain, or maybe you hear something you weren't expecting. Either way you move forward and save yourself an expensive litigation process.
I've read a lot of return stories (and I'm not saying that is what this is) on this and a lot of other sites. Often they make a big push for the end before trying to start over. I think they believe so strongly that they will be rejected that they can't bring themselves to ask to come back.
Total mind-meld on this, OwnIt. This is why I don't want Treasur pre-emptively closing off and declaring failure.
In other MLC R stories the MLCer makes it appear the darkest before the dawn because of their shame of what they've done and fears of never being accepted by the LBS again. They have changed recently, are starting to recognize that they created a mess, have seen that the LBS is okay and is making the best of life, and it's down to the wire with D or some other finality looming. They want to have a conversation, where they approach it with the assumption that it's over but the words are so carefully chosen (so as to not completely close doors) that they are clumsy and confusing.
It's so easy to see it the pattern as an observer, but I'm sure it's not so easy when it's your own situation and you've been on the rollercoaster for years.
Treasur, we don't know what will happen, but I think OwnIt and I are both picking up on some possibilities that could come from this. You've got a delicate balancing act in front of you. Remain detached and confident in your ability to handle anything, and don't go into it presuming the worst. I can only imagine how hard it is to pull that off, but I think you can do it.
Avoiding litigation is good. Sorting out my financial stability is good.
I don't know if either of you had a Vanisher. I last saw him 10 months ago. He ignored emails about practicalities even for several months. I only knew he was alive if he paid money into the household account. I assumed logically last year he was having an A when I got anonymous death threats. I didn't know who she was or that he was living part-time with her since about April 16 (before he said he wanted a D) until I saw his bank statements in June. So then I had a name, a face, realised she'd been stalking me via LinkedIn and lived 5 miles away from our old house and her FB page was full of wedding dress shops.
You are right that imagination is probably worse than reality, but the reality was a slap in the chops. Realising that while I'd been struggling with maintaining the old house or going to see my IC, I could have bumped into them at any point. Seeing the scale of his lies in black and white. Realising that he'd taken her to our honeymoon hotel in Paris. That his work colleagues who I'd known would have known about the A before I did and it had probably gone on for longer than I thought because I believed him in 2015 that it was a breakdown not an A. (And I've no idea how he could do that and feel comfortable. I can hardly bear to go back to our old town without feeling triggered.) Like yesterday, I knew he was probably there and I heard a dog in the background...so he replaced me, and his cat with a dog, I thought...actually I thought he replaced us both with two dogs!
The good thing about a Vanisher is it limits the spew although I could feel his anger and resentment at times, he rarely voiced it. Just silence and indifference really, as if you are nothing. It makes detachment easier probably and keeps you away from mindreading every exchange. But I think some of my emotions are effected by things I found out in June.
I've been musing on the process before we talk again. I'll talk to my L about mediation for the financial stuff today and take her advice. Given the sitch, and the long silence, do you think talking would be best with a third party C present?
Tbh, my reservation about talking is about cutting my losses vs opening old wounds just as I am up off my knees. I know that the man who loved me had a breakdown, was diagnosed with severe depression, became unrecognisable, cut contact with all his friends, ran away from home, said he didn't love me, filed for D 8 months ago, is in a long-term OW relationship, probably planning to remarry and ignored me for a year...do I need to know why? What will that give me that will help me move on?
I suppose my wounded inner child feels that I became nothing to him. I'm not nothing and our long M wasn't nothing, but I'd fought hard to accept the reality. And it was hard because my H really loved me so it was all pretty inconceivable. I just don't know if I want to look back, even a peek. And I see no signs that he wants to do anything more than get the D stuff sorted out and salve his conscience as part of his therapy by explaining his 'demons'. Maybe they're just not my business any longer...
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
Treasur, you don't read as someone who is done with him. Yes he's done a lot of crappy things. Yes forgiveness/reconciliation, etc would be a hard road if it came to that.
I don't think that the fact that he's a vanisher adds much. With no kids in the picture I think it is more common. Vanishers come back too. Mine is definitely a boomerang and I think if we lived closer (he's exceptionally lazy) he'd be a clinging boomerang, although not in a loving kind of way but rather underfoot and annoying. I think when we move next month he will be more of a vanisher.
I think the divorce behavior says something. He ran out and filed but hasn't done anything about it. Something I meant to ask and forgot, who made the phone call to whom? I'm guessing you called him because of the way you phrased it. What made you do it?
I know the other woman hurts, trust me I know. The fact that she is certifiably insane should make it a little easier though. Seriously who could deal with that forever.
Maybe he just wants to get things sorted out, but why sit on it for 8 months? That suggestions indecision to me. Mine tells me all the time he wants a divorce. And, . . . nothing. I guess we are just saying go in with a mind to resolve it, but be open to listening what he has to say. Don't refuse to listen forever and wonder what it is that he was going to tell you.
I honestly don't know what I was or feel, OwnIt. (If BluWave is around I'd welcome her advice as some things in her sitch seem similar.)
He made the call to me following up on an email from me 3 weeks ago. He had been chasing me to talk since the end of June, wanting to 'chat' on the phone while we dealt with legal stuff, to 'keep the communication doors open' as he said. I thought about it and said no, and my email said why and what I needed if that were to change. I expected him to do nothing and was braced for Court. A bit of me was hoping he'd do nothing because I'm tired of the mess and drama. In my email, I said to earn some trust back enough to talk, I needed three things. To reach a financial agreement. For him to tell both Ls he was pausing on finalising the D for 6 months to make a space for us to talk. To call me and set up a time to meet. Has he done those three things? Not quite, but what he's proposing is quite close bar pausing the D. (I feel strongly for my own wellbeing that once we are D'ed, he is nothing to do with me. I won't see him, speak to him or want to know what happens to him.)
Am I done with him? I don't know. I don't know if there is any 'him' left. I think I have forced myself to be done with him, but I loved him deeply. The only way I could get my head round how I felt was to see it as if he had killed himself. It felt similar, that I would still have lost him and be full of questions with no answers and find a way to live with that. Because I was grieving for my parents too, it broke me. I felt very alone and that the only way to survive was to think of him as dead and come up with my own story in order to move forward, if that makes sense. I always knew something in him broke and that it wasn't my fault, even if he was acting as if it were. It helped that he was actually diagnosed in Dec 15 because that was an objective fact.
The D behaviour has been illogical all along. He said he wanted a D by text a few days after we had seen each other and he'd said how good that had felt. He was obviously still pretty ill then - dead eyes etc. Of course I didn't know he was in the early stages of his A then. After he said he wanted a D, he refused to communicate at all for about 3 months. Then reappeared in Sept/Oct wanting to talk, then cut me dead. I got the D papers in Jan with no warning (at the same time as I was waiting on scan results after cancer surgery!) and again he refused to communicate directly with me until about 6 weeks ago. After he filed, he didn't really engage with the process until about May. Of course it made no sense...if you want a divorce, why would you not get on with it? But I really didn't want to con myself so I assumed that his mental health made it difficult for him to do the detailed work rather than assuming he didn't want the D. I just taught myself to accept it as it was and not mind read.
It really feels as if he has popped up just as I had bolted the door.
So I'm trying to be logical and honest with myself. I'm frightened of looking back into limbo again or inviting his chaos into my head. I'm frightened it will hurt me and that it will be a distraction from real GAL without my M. I see he wants to talk; I can't know why. (Actually the list of things I don't know is huge...I survived 2016 by having a large mental wooden crate marked 'I have no f***ing idea' and throwing stuff in it!) Do I think he wants to hurt me? No. Do I think he is so focused on his own stuff that he would do it anyway? Yes, maybe. I think his 'conversation' is more about what he wants to say than a dialogue. I don't see him thinking about my needs other than assuming I have questions. He did say he wanted to 'man up and take responsibility', that his behaviour has been 'far from good' (!) and that he knows what he's done is 'unforgiveable'. (I said calmly that he'd never asked for my forgiveness so how could we know. He went quiet and then moved the conversation back to financial stuff.)
Heart? I loved this human being, flaws and all. I know he has suffered and blown up his life, as well as mine. I still love who I thought he was and I believe he loved me too. Part of my M vows were about better and worse, and being kind no matter what. I promised him last year that if he ever was ready to talk, I would listen. But I'm angry and scared and almost 2 years of silence is a big space to fill.
Head? I can see and feel that something has shifted with him in the last couple of months. Dealing with the financial stuff without litigation is in my interest. He has a point that it is difficult to talk about emotional stuff at the same time as being in an adversarial legal process. If I was where I was a few months ago, I would see it as a cunning opportunity to slowly re-open communication and connection between us in a structured way, slowly over a couple of months. I also see that he is still with OW, has said nothing about even wanting to try to reconcile rather than finalise the D process.
Ok, here's what I'm thinking. Step 1: with L help, we go to mediation to finalise the � stuff. We both want to do that. It will probably be 2-3 meetings and take about a month. (Yay, just in time for our wedding anniversary!). I stick to my boundary. If he wants to talk, he emails both Ls that he will not apply for the absolute for 6 months. We find an appropriate C in an appropriate place, and meet every 2 weeks or so to talk and listen. That would take say 3-4 months. Between sessions, I would be 'dim' contact about other than the house sale etc so I keep this stuff on the edge of my life not the centre of it. And we see where that takes us. If he won't agree to pause finalising, then that suggests he wants a one-way communication rather than a dialogue and I will say 'meh' and live without it.
How does that sound?
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
Your Week Ahead - Love Focus: It's time to talk. There is an important conversation to be had. It's a heart-on-the-sleeve, cards-on-the-table kind of talk. It's time to share how you really feel, rather than what you'd like to be feeling. And it's time to listen too. There's something someone wants to share with you. But they need your encouragement and patience. So find some time this week to put the kettle on and let the tea brew. Share some cake and conversation. Sharing leads to caring. And that's always a wonderful thing.
Me: 53 H:38 T:20 M:14 BD ILYB etc 10/15, H diagnosed severe depression S 1/16 PA 4/16 H filed 1/17
To be honest Treasur it seems like the sort of plan I would come up with. Specific, detailed, and CONTROLLING!!!!
I've tried to let go of the idea that I know what anything looks like anymore. Maybe this wasn't your issue, but I was CONTROLLING in the marriage. I thought we had debates and decided things together, but looking back I did steamroll him until I got my way. Even when I knew he wasn't happy I just pressed on with the decision.
I'm sure he'd say I'm doing the same thing with the move, but hey I am the one that has to live there. I wanted to move 2,000 miles away. S decided on this place about 240 miles away from him, which is in the general area where S was born and we lived for 16 years, so totally understandable.
How about you just settle the financial stuff since that is in both of your interests and then you see where it goes from there. You don't have to throw in your heart. You don't have to let down your guard. Just listen. I love that quote about how we have one mouth and two ears so we should listen twice as much as we talk. That sure isn't me, but I'm working on it.
