I came here hearing my W wanted a divorce, I discovered shortly thereafter that there was OM. She broke off the PA but continues to talk to him (I am skeptical about the claim that they are friends but it's not entirely impossible she hasn't seen him in over a month.). We have had ups and downs but are going through MC and both of us have IC. In some ways we are doing better than we ever have but in some ways we run into some buzzsaws and pitfalls. We are learning what the other person needs and how to respond to that. Or rather: I am learning what W needs.
I think once she has more space, can rest and feels more at ease she will focus on what I need: much more intimacy (not just sex). She tries to and initiates it when she has energy and desire but at times she is exhausted (and her body language confirms this). I suspect her depression plays a role, summer is always hard on her, and now with the weather patterns increasing her migraines, she is going to get her eyes checked as she suspects her mood is affected by pain behind her eyes (which can be eye sight challenges) and she is also exploring going to a gynecologist which she has never gone to and she came across symptoms that also can explain some of her mood swings and other physical discomforts. But I realize more and more that the problem isn't ME per se but rather how I approach her. There are things she needs and I have come to realize that I can easily change my approach. I am not changing fundamentally for her. But the impact and effect those small changes have to her are huge.
Overall progress: we communicate better, we do things together as a team, W certainly tries to follow advice from MC. She affirms that I am a good person but neither of us have said ILY. I think we are both trying to see if there is a future but because we have been going at it for a decade there is a lot of regret and resentment and anger that shows up and we recognize that it is a lot of work. I think I am more committed to recommitting than W is BUT she continues to do the work and follow our MC advice and tasks. So if the statement that don't believe anything she says but half of what she does if that statement is correct I can be hopeful. It's VERY fragile though.
During the IC my counselor said I have to think about what it's I need. And that W are I both have the same desires and wants but have different needs. That HAS been the biggest challenge. I need physical attention (hugs) whereas she needs space at certain moments. Counselor said that we need to get out of the toxic cycle that is dysfunctional. I told her that sometimes it feels things are going well and one of us wants to make the gap bigger again. She nodded and said it's because that is what worked in the past "If I cry or am upset or angry I usually get my way". I need to stay calmer but W also needs to recognize more how she contributes to the challenges. I think she has. It is just very overwhelming on her right now.
But I need to work on being more patient, restricting myself to listening as my W really needs someone to listen to her vent about her day. IC it was pointed out that I should perhaps feel honored W continues to see me as a person W trusts. (W actually told me that last week when we had an argument about it) She also validated that sometimes it may be a lot for me to take. Perhaps I should suggest to W that sometime on a day I would like to sit with her at a table and discuss a few things but that I need to ask for an hour sometime during the evening rather than insist on it now. IC said that it might actually empower my W. And it's true, I need impulse control, I need patience, and I need to figure out sometimes what it's I want to say before I say it. Even though I think I have legitimate fears I need to think much harder about the desired end goal (I am sometimes still seduced by the "but I am right" approach). IC pointed out as she did in MC session that expectations lead to shame and guilt and anger. Because we are having a good time lately I perhaps increase my expectations and my W tries to the best of her energy and I should focus on that rather than pressure her. I also express things not in the best way and I need to be better at that. I make an assumption sometimes and that assumption means I say something I don't mean or that deviates from the question I actually want to ask. IC did ask if I felt like I made progress and I said yes. IC nodded (and W has validated this). But because I do deeply love my W and desire her I sometimes let my emotions get the best of me. I always hid that part but my W doesn't need that right now. At least not 24/7.
We have our next MC session on Wednesday and MC said she expects us to be there for six more weeks with longer IC and a few update sessions as MC to see how things go.
Last week I wrote how W had bad feelings about wedding anniversary. BUT when a mutual friend said he wants to hang out W didn't just say yes to him but asked me how I felt since it was our anniversary. I told her we can have fun with him and we can do something else later that weekend. It's ACTIONS like this that give me hope. She says she is not recommitted to saving the marriage but she doesn't escalate fights or when something mean is said SHE attempts to return to stability; her actions tell me she is kind of recommitting just perhaps not with a focus on 'forever'. I trust her when she says she is emotionally and physically exhausted. My approach is to cuddle and do nothing but she doesn't always get comfort from that. I am also taller so physically bigger and that is an issue that she has pointed out. Me being an excited puppy dog works in some cases but in other cases I need to not let that side get out too much. That confused me for years but I think I get it now.
One concern I had is that with W unhappiness at work and desire to go do her PhD that she is trying to force herself to leave and of course that just makes everything more unpleasant. My approach has always been: let's set a goal to leave the state but for the time being let's at least try to enjoy being here. Last week when we told a mutual friend that we hated Florida. He seemed sad and said: you two hate it here and I am thinking I love how I met two awesome people and don't want to lose that. W later reflected on it and said: you know what he is right. It's not all bad. So I think if she continues on that path SHE reduces moments where she is anxious or upset which means we have more pleasant things to talk about. In the meantime, I need to reiterate to myself that it doesn't matter if I am right but that if I don't detach
Am I in denial? Perhaps but I don't think she is manipulating me. I do think she sometimes likes to blame me and focus on that but I receive a lot more from her than just coldness and meanness. Even when SHE is exhausted she sometimes tries and reaches out to me. She recognizes she has resentment and wants to work on that with the counselor. What more can I ask for? Quicker process? Sure but this is a marathon not a sprint. And actually taking it slower allows us BOTH to reflect and slowly work on things. The more short cuts we want to take the more we make mistakes. The more I make mistakes.
Some of you will say: I need to force NC (W has said if she recommits she knows what to do AND W continues to says he is sometimes afraid of me) or I need to kick her out if she doesn't go NC. I don't think those options are the best choices right now. Not when W actually shows effort. But I do need to let it stop increasing expectations.
I have got the luxury that my GAL activities involve working out and W has recognized and positively affirmed that I look better. She said "regardless what happens between us" you are a good person, you are good at sex, you look great. She hasn't insulted me (like she had for years criticizing and focusing on my weaknesses and fears...AS DID I). My W WANTS to spend time but also needs alone time and in that alone time I can focus on myself.
Now it's about consistency and each of us addressing our own issues. I cannot force her to work on herself but I have a good idea that she is taking those things seriously. The other day she mentioned how a big fear is not realizing if she has bipolar disorder. So she isn't denying how she has mood swings and feels depressed. My job is to respond in a way SHE needs (and think about if that is something I can live with and so far the answer is yes).
Your W will never fully commit as long as she has contact with OM. The fact that she isn't willing to get rid of him for you alone says a lot. There is an attachment. And that attachment will constantly block any efforts you make. Trust me, it's the reason why there are constant setbacks with my own sitch.
I have been trying to figure out how to respond to that Tread and I do agree that I need to be careful but I also think you might have a lot of anger towards your own W. that may prevent a reconciliation down the road.
In my case, yes I agree that contact needs to be broken but I am also cognizant of legitimate fear I have caused in her. I don't know how that is in your sitch but compared to how my W was acting in the beginning and compared to now she has shown a lot of change. And like I said the frequency of talking to OM is not very high and the main focus seems to be on him wanting her to work on herself. To some degree if I force her to make a choice I would push her right to him...but regardless of that she needs to feel a lot more comfortable around me again and from her actions SHE has come around a lot.
Didn't want to update so soon again but there is a little bit of a conversation with W that I felt would be interesting to share.
So you know how W mentioned how she didn't have joyous memories of being married on our wedding day? I knew she had been focusing only on the bad but last night we had a friend over and she suddenly said how an idea would be to hire a maid service while we go away for some time of the weekend. We have been struggling to keep up with the chores and especially with me doing 180s and not always doing everything immediately but rather wait until we have a moment to do things together or do a division of labor...well we keep having other things interfere to have the energy to do it.
I know. Some would say: how great for her to say that in front of the friend (who knows about OM) and she is pretending. I suppose it is a possibility. But ever since W has been on an empowerment tour I can see her open up more. Yesterday she got behind the wheel of that friend's car who gave her some basic instructions in a parking lot. She has been planning the GRE. She is taking her medical issues seriously and makes appointments (so far just for eyes not yet the gynecologist) but this woman is really trying. She is also really trying to not let my quirks get to her like they did in the past. Instead she calmly brings it up. We just need to figure out IF what the other person needs is what either one of us can provide and is willing to provide. When I provide her space she is much more relaxed and warm towards me and even when she doesn't feel like it she still tries to show affection.
Had another interesting day yesterday. I have mentioned before how one of my issues was my own resentment and at times anger aimed at W for not appreciating what I do for her and how her medical issues have sort of influenced a lot of what we experienced. In my own journey to being a better person I came to recognize that it wasn't so much that she didn't appreciate it but she felt left out of the process. BUT the underlying resentment was still there... I thought "does she REALLY not see how the medical issues affected us"? Like I don't feel like I am sacrificing much because I want her to feel well and there is enough fun things to do at home. But I have had to turn down requests to hang out with people or I had to rearrange my schedule to drive her to doctors. And of course those things cost money so I didn't always express myself well and said: it's too expensive.
Yesterday, W was having a massive migraine from the clouds... she was a little cranky but I essentially just drove her home not really talking. When we got home and we were waiting for a friend to come over and I was looking for something she walked in and gave me a big hug and said she appreciates me so much and how she realizes that I made a lot of sacrifices when she isn't feeling well.
Those words meant a lot. She doesn't need to say those things but every now and then it just is nice to be appreciated.
I told her that I really don't see it as a sacrifice because I love being around her and I want her to feel well enough etc. But then I decided to add something else: and I said how for very long in our R I focused on her health issues and perhaps didn't always recognize that when she is feeling great that she wants to go do things and explore. She nodded and said thanks for saying that and how she mentioned my sacrifice as she said "you probably can relate to that".
It's moments like this where it feels we are sort of piecing things together. We are not fully there yet..but we are learning what the other person needs and we are learning how we can best communicate that to the other.
I appreciate that chance and opportunity. It may end in divorce but at least there is a real attempt. The more my W pursues self empowering moves the less stressed she seems as well.
...she walked in and gave me a big hug and said she appreciates me so much and how she realizes that I made a lot of sacrifices when she isn't feeling well.
I told her that I really don't see it as a sacrifice because I love being around her
A lot of people tend to do this when someone thanks them- they unintentionally invalidate the person's "thank you". Case in point-she told you she appreciates the sacrifice and your response is "I really don't see it as a sacrifice". You accidentally told her she is wrong, that her feelings are inaccurate!! Something I read a long time ago, I think in "Seven Habits" maybe, Is that we all should make a habit of -allowing- someone to thank us without us attaching a bunch of invalidating comments and apologies to it. A simple "you're welcome" speaks volumes Didn't mean to pick on you but I think a lot of us guys on here are suffering from NGS and tend to do this because we feel guilty about receiving a "thank you". It's something I've worked on a last few years and it is surprisingly difficult just saying "you're welcome" instead of "it was nothing" or "it's no biggie" or similar.
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It's moments like this where it feels we are sort of piecing things together. We are not fully there yet..but we are learning what the other person needs and we are learning how we can best communicate that to the other.
It is all about the baby steps and that was certainly a nice one! So celebrate it internally and keep moving forward!
No you hit it on the head. I do that A LOT. She says something that is about herself that seems like she is insulting herself or criticizing it and I say: no, you're smart, beautiful, whatever and she told me over the years that that feels invalidating to her. I never understood what she meant by that until I recently started to just listen and validate and notice a physical difference in her demeanor towards me.
She did actually seem to appreciate it this morning when I said that I really liked how she recognized that her medical issues play a role but that I don't see it as sacrificing myself. She said she was really happy to hear that. Over the years she called herself a broken model wife. And because I do think it DID influence my lack of wanting to do things when she suggests it I brought it up.
But your overall point is true. And if there is anything I have learned these past few weeks is basically shifting my response to what I think I need to do to basically focus on listening to her. And asking questions about what she just said and how it made her feel OR to sum it up like "so if I am understanding you right, to you it feels like your hard work isn't recognized".
Something else I am working on controlling more is recognizing that when I get enthusiastic about something she says and offer ideas she has or basically I want to tell her that she can easily achieve her goals and I basically take away the moment from her where she feels pressure about the 10 other steps she needs to take. I saw this always as me being supportive and I still too often flip to that mode but I can more easily catch myself before I say it. It's insane how my W and I really do want the same things but what it is we need from the other is fundamentally different.
It's very fragile. But despite her saying she isn't committed to making the marriage work. She hasn't really said she isn't committed either but of course I stopped asking that question and the MC kind of phrased it that way and W simply nodded and didn't bring up afterwards how she isn't quite there yet. Her actions tell me she is committed to working on the MR but she cannot fully do it because of all these other things SHE needs to work on.
And because all of that is a lot: I want her to stop feeling stressed and anxious and angry and resentful towards others and I went about it the wrong way. So I am really appreciative of any time I have left with my W before we decide what to do with the MR. It has given me an opportunity to show her that I finally do recognize what it is I need to be doing and what she needs from me. She has seen a different person since April and she has slowly come around step by step.
W just received a request for a phone interview at the place where she wants to do her PhD. I am very excited for her. As she said it is confirmation for her worth and credentials BUT of course I am also worried as this means our time line is very different now.
I didn't mention any of that on the phone. I want her to feel good about herself and in the past I focused on the "but what does this mean...".
Funny thing is that our naturally instinct is to make our wives feel good about themselves. So when they speak negatively about themselves we jump in to say that ain't so. It never occurred to me that this was a bad thing. One would have assumed that our mothers would have taught us this concept. But it seems to be some kept secret among women. Glad to see that you are starting to perfect this concept.
I am actually surprised at myself for how I am not worried about this job opportunity. Yes, it makes for a huge departure of our path as the expected start day is later this month and at the other coast of the US but ultimately, she deserves this opportunity. It pays really well, fits her qualifications rather than her being overqualified.
I will start thinking harder about options once she actually gets the job offered but we did briefly discuss it last night. She said matter-of-factly that I can stay here a year and then come next year (we have a house to sell after all). Our friend was there. She may have wanted to pretend in front of that friend but I do think her being empowered has helped her realize I am not so much the problem. And in fact, I do seem to apparently care about her and want her to succeed. She seemed surprised at that early on and now is accepting that it may be real.
The irony is, I have been asked to chair our department and this would offer a nice pay increase and would make me very marketable to move away. But at the end of the day regardless of our sitch, a lot of professional couples deal with this where one person may get a job offer that works and is ideal and the other may have to leave a good opportunity or sacrifice. The chair position is for 3 years and I have always felt we would have to move from Florida in the next three years. My plan was to do the chair 1 or 2 years and then move.
My W was thrilled I was so supportive and I wasn't faking it. I was always supportive of her goals but my focus is on the financial details which matter but my W needs to feel like I support her. She hugged me tightly when I said I was proud of her for getting this interview and she said "thank you, that is all I ever wanted to hear from you". So yes, small things that were not intended caused huge pain sadness and resentment. She also called me up IMMEDIATELY after she saw the email before even reading the specifics.
In many ways if she would get this job, she can get a huge discount at that place for doing her PhD and it would reduce the burden on me to provide for us financially. This allows me to pursue a wider range of jobs some of which are perhaps paying less but are more meaningful. I joked how I would just go wash dishes and she said well don't do that. But part of me DOES want to consider just going.
But let's not jump ahead.
As an aside. Earlier in the year she did say that she was hoping she would get a job and then just be able to move on from me. So that is the dark thought that every now and then arises that she is just biding her time. But she is making genuine efforts. Now I had a real moment to test my gut feeling. Now that she has the interview she perhaps could drop the act. Instead she went a step further. Last night we were cooking and in the past I felt she snapped at me for not doing something right. She kind of did yesterday and I said that's not nice and I walked away. Didn't yell. Didn't cry. Didn't accuse. Didn't slam doors. Just calmly walked away. She immediately followed and apologized and said she fell in old habits and how she wants to blame someone else. Her facial expression looked pained. I trust her. She didn't have to do that. She could have simply been upset that I walked away etc.
But she told me later that night how she felt like she has been imprisoned on this campus (and her two former bosses are sociopaths and liars and frauds...seriously there is a Lifetime movie in this) and she finally feels like she can escape. She was smiling at me being encouraging and how her friends are encouraging so I am just glad that for this moment (her very first job interview that is not local and something she really wants) I was there supportive of her. I have missed big moments and messed up in my approach.
Am I not worried at all? Maybe a little. But we don't have a future if she isn't happy in her work/living situation. I always told her that I dragged her over the country twice now for my career and the next move she could decide as I wanted her to finally be able to do what she wants/needs. The Pacific Northwest (that is the region we are talking about) is beautiful and would hit most of what we both enjoy: nature, actual community engagement, culture.... I was hoping for more racial diversity).
Oh right. The counseling session went alright. We discussed a lot of the empowerment things W did. And we went over breaking out of thinking patterns: so very useful. That is perhaps the only real loss if W leaves at the end of this month that we perhaps stop these amazingly powerful resources. On the other hand, W can get actual space (I am not worried she is going to be dating all these men. I am not dismissing that possibility either.)
Didn't mean to pick on you but I think a lot of us guys on here are suffering from NGS and tend to do this because we feel guilty about receiving a "thank you". It's something I've worked on a last few years and it is surprisingly difficult just saying "you're welcome" instead of "it was nothing" or "it's no biggie" or similar.