WAW, is there hope?

[KGuy]

You wrote a lot. Um, I'll be brief for now (relatively).

Your reply was brief? I do tend to write allot and have been criticized for that at work...lol. I like to try and get my point across or completely answer you question in this case and perhaps go into too much detail. You did say i glossed things over earlier, now you see why. Its also good to put it out there to discuss, i value your (and other's) input and it provides insight to perhaps redirect my focus on what i can do. That the point of this forum after all. I probably should post in smaller chunks to keep this thread up top for the best possibility of input as cadet suggests, but i think i also need time for reflection on each input as well, so i am good with it.

I don't think this is all your fault and did not say that. I just felt that your first post was a lot about how you were a victim. And blaming the weaning as the big factor.

I still haven't gone back to reanalyze my original bullet list. If it comes off as I'm the victim, i wrote it wrong and should clarify. I do want too be clear that i am well aware that i have blame in our R. Wish i could edit it, but i don't think thats possible here.

She has other children, and one prior divorce, so are you saying that unless she is pregnant or nursing a baby, she's too difficult?

No, I think i'm actually saying the opposite.

I am saying that at the time her SD13, D3 and D1.5 all started to eat solid foods (causes less consumption of breast milk and a withdrawal from the "good" chemicals associated with feeding), all the "issues" that we had a status quo on previously, were now bigger issues to her worthy of a D. Add to that, the house was a mess and at this time the kids were getting mobile and starting to walk and that needed to be dealt with. All these components led her to just want to leave the situation and start anew. I suspect (well hope), that after the weaning is done and the "withdrawal" from the lack of chemicals resides, she will be in a different place.

Of course i could be wrong and she just wants to leave the situation. Hard to say now, she isn't talking to me.

Upon reflection on both yours and my posts on the physical struggle, she may also just think that it can't continue like this and walk away because of that. I suspect she shifts the blame on me based on what i (mind) read the neighbor had said. If that is the case, i just need to show that we can not feed on each other when we interact while I am DBing. As far as I'm concerned, i feel that "in sickness and in health" apply here and I'll wait until i know its not the weaning issue before reassessing my situation.

Also, while I said that marriage is not a war, your response was "but divorce is war".

Though we could debate that, my point was about the marriage, not the divorce. Inside your marriage, prior to this divorce filing, you two have had a stormy relationship.

There does seem to have been a power struggle, and a lot of score keeping.

Agree on both counts. I would welcome a debate the Divorce is war. I remember my L saying during some of our discussions that i needed to do X and i couldn't just "try" if i only tried we would lose and she wanted to win. The only ones that win are the lawyers though. The MC mentioned something about a book on how divorce is a business . I need to remember to ask her about that book and put it on my read list. Either way though, with kids involved it really shouldn't be.

You are correct that the MR is not war though, but there is definitely a power struggle going on in our MR. I've always tended to stand my ground and require her to convince me to change and i've told her that. She is used to people just doing what she tells them to do or after her explanation they'll see her way and relent. That is a bias opinion of course, but it is the way i feel about it anyway.

As for the scorekeeping, i definitely feel i am the one that keeps giving every time and the "counting" just comes from me looking back and thinking "yeah, i am being taken advantage of". The W and I will discuss an issue that she initiates a change and come to an agreement where we compromise. We make the changes and all is well for awhile. She then comeback later (after the changes are done mind you) and says she is not happy with the situation and wants changes. Guess what changes she wants to make? All the things that got compromise in the previous discussion all come back. This causes resentment on my part after continually happening.

This time i put my foot down and didn't even table a discussion on something that she wanted to revise from a previous compromised agreement.

I'm sorry to hear about your mom. When did she pass away? Do you have siblings?

Thanks, she died the end of 2014, right before the last time we had issues where serious talk of D was mentioned.

And though I love hearing about peaceful marriages, sometimes I wonder about couples who "never" fight in front of the kids,

it does make me wonder how they did resolve conflicts. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting you or them).

Not saying they didn't have disagreements in front of us. They may have a conversation where they would clearly be on different sides of the "argument", but they always shelved it in front of us. You could tell my mom was upset about things by if she sighed or perhaps gave my Dad a dirty look. Years later i asked him about this and he told me they made it a point not to ague in front of us and talk about it later when we were not there. Another thing my Dad said was that my Mom never wanted to go to bed mad at each other and made it a point to try and at least talk about thing to resolve them before they would go to bed. I find that admirable and wished my W would have done that in our M. IMO my Dad catered to her quite a bit at his expense at times, but thats not a bad thing really. When i was younger, i thought he got walked over quite a bit, but i know better now. Since she has been gone he has said that she drove their marriage to what it was. I think he is underplaying his role, but for him to say that says lots about their marriage. I admire their marriage and sure wish i could have something similar.

But since Every couple has conflict, it's possible that you are so unused to seeing people with different opinions who feel strong emotions, stay and work through it, so that it's foreign to you.

Yeah, my parents were very similar people so i agree with this. My role models did not prepare me for this much conflict. I knew we would have some conflict going in though and embraced it. To your point though, i may have not worked on meshing the differences enough perhaps. The W told me she had a conversation with her Mom when we were first dating that she was concerned that we were so different. Her Mom told her that was a good thing and when she told me, i agreed. I told her i thought it was a good thing and that she introduced me to a different way of thinking that i would not have considered if we weren't together.

When you say they had a Christian marriage, what does that mean to you?

(I'm a believer, so it's not a challenge for me to ask. I just want you to define the terms).

My Mom drove this as well. She was raised going to Church every week, sung in the choir, volunteered on many groups that helped people. Outside the church, she was a teacher and influenced many lives. She taught early grade school. I remember going to a graduation one time of a student who she taught many years before. To me that speaks volumes of who she was. I would say my Dad was spiritual, but not as religious but thats my opinion. I tended to his thinking early in life, but have had experiences that definitely have made me more religious now so I'm a mix between those two beliefs now. Still, my Dad fully supported my Mom to raise us as a church-going family. His mother was very religious as well.

As for feeling powerless to change the dynamic, I don't agree. You are not powerless. This relationship has two people in it.

When one person changes how they behave or interact, the relationship changes by definition. Seriously.

Yeah, I've read the DB book and am about 90 pages into the DR book and do agree with this. I will say its a new concept to me that the R can change if only one person acts. It seems very feasible and i wished i had found the book the last time the W and I discussed D seriously. Ultimately, we both have to come together though and sometimes that is the hardest part.

The houses and DIY projects are stressful. ( I know this from personal experience.)

If they seem endless, it starts to feel hopeless. It wears on you.

Don't I know it. Before we were married we both had (at least) one house a piece. She didn't want to just go and live in my house and insisted we get a house together. We did this, but within a year, the new house required a major plumbing job. That coupled with us trying to get our other houses in shape to rent/sell does cause a lot of stress. That amplifies your point to at least threefold. I have two additional houses as well that add to the stress. Those are a little different though as one is a rough camp house and the other is a long distance rental which i have someone else do the work since i am not down there.

To my W's credit, she wanted me to just pay people to do work on our houses here because she knew i was spending too much time away from her (when working on my house). I was coming around to her thinking, but i still couldn't let go of some of the DIY stuff. This argument also carried into our belief system on the chores for the older kids, which i still haven't come around on. We had a time there where she made me aware the work was affecting my ability to take some of the kid load off of her and would remind me that she needed help at the house. I was able to drop what i was working on and be more attentive when she did that. I tend to focus on the job and tune out things.
This is also true of my full time job and i really appreciated her call to tell me that she was overwhelmed and needed my help.

And the chaos of small children

(I love kids, and I'm one of 9, so please don't misunderstand that)

is a lot. Sorry I may have missed it but is your wife a stay at home mom? That means no get away time, so That is a lot of time to be in noise and chaos and see no end in sight to the house issues.
it's very classic scenario for tempers flaring.

Fully agree on this. She is not a SAHM, which makes it even more overwhelming. I would go one step further to say that this coupled with her breast feeding is exactly the straw that broke the camel's back for her. She just feels/felt tired, overwhelmed and most likely thinks i don't support her enough leaving her in a wore down state. There were times this was probably true when i took on the big project on the house i had before the marriage and she does have a point (i also have a counter, but will not go there) After I finished the big job on my house, I made sure i took the load off her as much as i could (these past two years). In fact, my going for the whole milk instead of was my way of trying to take the load off her in a way. Both of us didn't communicate our intentions/complaints to each other. We are both to blame for that.

Fundamentally speaking, what is the problem?

Not about the fight or the chores, but about respect and blending the families and sharing the same values and effectively acting as a team.

Can you look at those^^ without assigning blame?

Might be helpful.

I'm actually to the part of the DR book where you write your objectives which ties intoo this i guess. I'm still thinking about this one, and i think i addressed some of the issues above.

1) lack of communication. I would include that we also need to work on how we project ourselves in this.
2) Inconsistent rules on how to raise ALL the children
3) Lack of time together. I would include more intimacy here as well, when we are intimate, we definitely got along better.
4) Lack of time as a family. Inclusion of all family events for both of us.
5) Lack of discussion of our goals. I would like to break it down into 5 year increments (where do we want to be in each timeframe and go from there, etc)

PS Just so you know, I'm a lawyer. But a nice person.

I have to admit I struggle not to dislike my h's lawyer. It's hard to know who is directing what, however. Very odd sensation for me. Not good.

I guess i won't hold it against you...;) Kinda gets back to the Divorce is war discussion...

I didn't try to get to know any of my Ls that well really, but they seemed like nice enough people. Family Lawyers see allot though and probably just detach from the emotion or even morality of the situation i think. Its just a job to them and lets face it, their clients are pushing them to do things as well. Over the years, i'm sure they are pushed in areas that they don't want to go and they see the results and think "why not pass that onto my other clients.

When my W wanted a D back in 2015, she wanted us not to even have L and go to a mediator. An "easy, amicable divorce" she said. That would be the only way a D could be peaceful if both parties willingly gave up. I don't believe that and feel you should fight for marriage until every last thing is tried.

When the W moved out to next door, she filed for D right away but didn't serve me. I didn't know this then. The W wouldn't let me have the youngest one for more than a couple hours at a time which caused me to interview two L. The first L told me i could file a parent-child suit only. I liked the 2nd L better and requested for the L to file such a suit to which she resisted and convinced me to file for D. Although torn up about it, i relented and signed what i needed for her to do it. I felt God softened her heart and she emailed the next morning and said she could do as i requested, but it would put me at risk should my W file for D. Turns out she did , but i made the call to do something i felt could be the last attempt at saving the marriage yet standing up on the issue of her with-holding the youngest child from me. After mediation, my L told me that now that it ws over, at least i would know i took the high road, and i do.

When i see dirty tricks performed by L, i know the L had influence, but also understand that their client (my W) let them do that after possibly being convinced. I make the call that my W is not thinking clearly right now and was talked into some things she did. It may not be true (as it was with the 1st W i believe), but i won't know that until after the W's stated 2 year timeframe of breast feeding (plus a weaning period). By then it'll be too late for the M, unfortunately...

I know, another long post....