WAW, is there hope?

[25yearsmlc]

Hi,

Sorry you are here. It really hurts, I know. ((( )))

Still it seems like a lot of skimming on your end and a lot of mind reading a blame shifting, as if your wife is "sick" and that she is just plain wrong/petty.

Can we hear about the assault you say She did to you, but which resulted in her filing for divorce & moving out the same day?

I'm guessing she would have a different version of events. I"m not trying to blame you but to help you get insight into your role in this?

What would SHE say if she were here?


And what are you doing to show her that marriage to you now, would be different than before?

[KGuy]

Alright,

Its quite messy, but i'll try and give things from her perspective. I provided some commentary in italic in there though.

Leading up to that day she had moved into another bedroom. We had an incident before that, but i'll focus on the one before the filing as its was worse.

Earlier in the day, we had yet another heated conversation where we were again "non-communicating" between issues and D was brought up. At that point she was sleeping with the middle SS in a separate BR for about a month, but would still use the Master Bath. She had mentioned in previous conversations how when i go in the MBR bath, i was invading her privacy. In anger, I told her fine i'd move her things out of the MBR closet into the room she was staying inand she could use the other bathroom (when she walked through the master room she was invading my privacy). So i acted and went upstairs and started to do that. She was very upset about that and told me at that point that i had "made up her mind". She took photos of me moving the clothes into the other closet.

She had been going over to her Mom's next door to eat for most of that week (i had asked her Mom to help out by cooking for her and the kids since i didn't get home until late. The W was exhausted at this point and as soon as i got home i would get the kids ready for bed and put them to sleep) and came back. Usually she came back alone with perhaps one of the older kids, but this day, all three of her kids came back as well as the MIL when the W came back. I generally gave our kids their bath and get them ready for bed. When i went to get the younger one to put her in the tub, the W said she wanted to feed her first, she was insistant on her feeding then but relented to me putting her in the tub as long as i brought her back right away to feed (the D generally falls asleep after I give the bath and a feeding). After the bath, i usually will play a little with the kids while i am getting them dressed (and after usually, but i wanted to get the youger one to the W). The young one went for an empty sippy cup and was clearly very thirsty. So i went down and the W was in the kitchen doing something in the sink area near her Mom. I went for a bottle to get some regular milk for the baby. The W flipped out and insisted on breast feeding and then went for the baby. She struggled with me to get the child from me. After i resisted, she had the SD get a phone and record the struggle. I told her she was hurting me and she did the same. Finally, i handed the child to her Mom. I grabbed the phone from the SD and proceeded to go to call the Sheriff. The W sent the SD after me to get the phone from me. She went to grab for the phone, but i got out of the room with the phone. The W then chased me to another room and proceeded to grab my shirt and pull me back. When i wriggled out of her grasp, she kneed me in the groin. When she did that, i could see in her eyes that she was disturbed that she had gone that far as to physically strike me. It was a glancing blow and i got away. She grabbed my back shorts pockets and ripped it off as i went up the stairs to the MBR. The 3 y/o saw that and started crying. She picked up the 3 y/o and her and her Mom left before the Sheriff arrived. All 3 step kids were outside the door while i made the call. The Sheriff came, but i wouldn't press charges.

I don't know what i was thinking resisting her getting the kid or calling, i felt she was out of control and i was a little upset that she would dictate to me something completely different than what we had previously done with the kids. Also, I had a similar incident happen in my first marriage where the XW picked a fight and tried to use it against me in court. I know i have a trigger there, in fact the MIL had mentioned it to her on the other incident. I guess i called the Sheriff to see if i could use it to get her in to get her checked out, but that sure backfired on me. I've got a lot of regrets as my resisting did not help matter at all.

The W has never acted this way, has never been physical like this. Likewise with me. When i write this out, i can see how this has just gotten out of control. I've been told after my first wife (and confirmed by my lawyer(s) that instigating a physical confrontation is advice lawyers give their clients to get an upper edge. I know she talked with this (and another) lawyer before this incident as well as discussion we have had in the past about the previous marriage.

[KGuy]

Okay,

Now disecting this as to how she felt? It would most likely be something like this:


-He is moving my delicate clothes from the closet and cramming them into a smaller closet damaging them
-He told me he would give me the baby back after the bath and he didn't
-He wouldn't let me have the baby
-he physically prevented me from feeding the baby
-he took my son's cell phine
-he tried to call the Sheriff on me


I of course have counters to all of these and i can see this converstaion going back and forth similar to how a non-communicative dialog goes in the DR book. Both side stick by their views and don't listen to the other. I get that and wished i could have stopped and diffused the situation somehow. Didn't have the book then though.

I realize it appears i am trying to dump this on her, i'm not. I know i have problems, not only a depression issue, but also some incredible previous marital issues that are eerily similar to what went on here. I mean her MIL told her at one point she was pusghing my buttons, to which she responded i was pushing my own buttons. In a way she was right. If i read into my actions, i might even say that i expected this to happen, so therfore am partially responsible for the events happening in a similar manner due to me trying to prevent them from happening if that makes sense .

It may sound like I'm reaching I guess, but I just keep looking for reasons why this got to this point and to explain the extreme anger she has towards me in order to do whatever i need to do. I nkow part of that anger was a long time brewing. Her previous marriage ended at the same time her youngest from that marriage was as old as our youngest. Putting that 2 together with the other 2 from when the W had issues when our 3 y/o and now 18 m/o were roughly the same age made me research 4, the weaning thing.

[KGuy]

I had the kids today. I have to get off early to get them, before the W gets off. The MIL brings them over when ii drive up and is back to being cordial again. I limited the conversation to the kids and we discussed when to drop off in the morning. I felt very upbeat this time and the conversation didn't seem strained between us so there is that.

The kids and I had a good time. Nothing like a small child falling asleep in your arms or the smile of a kid looking up or over at you to check if you are watching them...lol.

[25yearsmlc]

Alright,

Its quite messy, but i'll try and give things from her perspective. I provided some commentary in italic in there though.

Leading up to that day she had moved into another bedroom. We had an incident before that, but i'll focus on the one before the filing as its was worse.

Earlier in the day, we had yet another heated conversation where we were again "non-communicating" between issues and D was brought up.


So, if I understand this^^^you brought up D, correct?


At that point she was sleeping with the middle SS in a separate BR for about a month, but would still use the Master Bath. She had mentioned in previous conversations how when i go in the MBR bath, i was invading her privacy. In anger, I told her fine i'd move her things out of the MBR closet into the room she was staying inand she could use the other bathroom (when she walked through the master room she was invading my privacy). So i acted and went upstairs and started to do that.

why did you do^^^ this? What was the goal?


She was very upset about that and told me at that point that i had "made up her mind". She took photos of me moving the clothes into the other closet.

She had been going over to her Mom's next door to eat for most of that week (i had asked her Mom to help out by cooking for her and the kids since i didn't get home until late. The W was exhausted at this point and as soon as i got home i would get the kids ready for bed and put them to sleep) and came back. Usually she came back alone with perhaps one of the older kids, but this day, all three of her kids came back as well as the MIL when the W came back. I generally gave our kids their bath and get them ready for bed.

When i went to get the younger one to put her in the tub, the W said she wanted to feed her first, she was insistant on her feeding then but relented to me

In hindsight, Was this a battle worth fighting?

putting her in the tub as long as i brought her back right away to feed (the D generally falls asleep after I give the bath and a feeding). After the bath, i usually will play a little with the kids while i am getting them dressed (and after usually, but i wanted to get the youger one to the W). The young one went for an empty sippy cup and was clearly very thirsty.


So i went down and the W was in the kitchen doing something in the sink area near her Mom. I went for a bottle to get some regular milk for the baby. The W flipped out and insisted on breast feeding and then went for the baby. She struggled with me to get the child from me. After i resisted,

why would you resist? She wanted to nurse the baby, who was thirsty. I'm confused about the power struggle here. What are the underlying issues in your opinion?

Dig deep.


she had the SD get a phone and record the struggle. I told her she was hurting me and she did the same. Finally, i handed the child to her Mom.


ugh


I grabbed the phone from the SD and proceeded to go to call the Sheriff.

why?

The W sent the SD after me to get the phone from me. She went to grab for the phone, but i got out of the room with the phone. The W then chased me to another room and proceeded to grab my shirt and pull me back. When i wriggled out of her grasp, she kneed me in the groin.

so, she kneed you in the groin b/c you were getting away? Would she say it was in self defense if she were here?


When she did that, i could see in her eyes that she was disturbed that she had gone that far as to physically strike me. It was a glancing blow and i got away. She grabbed my back shorts pockets and ripped it off as i went up the stairs to the MBR. The 3 y/o saw that and started crying. She picked up the 3 y/o and her and her Mom left before the Sheriff arrived. All 3 step kids were outside the door while i made the call. The Sheriff came, but i wouldn't press charges.

I don't know what i was thinking resisting her getting the kid or calling, i felt she was out of control and i was a little upset that she would dictate to me something completely different than what we had previously done with the kids.

Kguy, - this^^^ sounds like a mutual fray with 2 people who both need anger management inside an odd power struggle.

Which at least is a clear path for you to do your personal work in, imo.




Also, I had a similar incident happen in my first marriage where the XW picked a fight

this is an unusual concidence, don't you think? Have you ever worked on getting better coping skills for this?


and tried to use it against me in court. I know i have a trigger there, in fact the MIL had mentioned it to her on the other incident.


Well, what are you doing to work on this trigger? It's a pattern, and you have mentioned 3 separate incidents - and in each case you blame your ex w and your present wife.


I guess i called the Sheriff to see if i could use it to get her in to get her checked out, but that sure backfired on me. I've got a lot of regrets as my resisting did not help matter at all.

The W has never acted this way, has never been physical like this. Likewise with me.


but you just said there are prior incidents in your previous m.

When i write this out, i can see how this has just gotten out of control. I've been told after my first wife (and confirmed by my lawyer(s) that instigating a physical confrontation is advice lawyers give their clients to get an upper edge. I know she talked with this (and another) lawyer before this incident as well as discussion we have had in the past about the previous marriage.

so you are saying your wife set you up? That she trapped you into a fight?

[25yearsmlc]

I would not keep digging into the "w is in weaning withdrawal" as the reason for your marital problems.

While it MAY be a small factor I think you are letting yourself off the hook almost completely and here's the thing

if you were a perfect h, you would now be powerless to improve things or change the dynamic,

so in very real way, it's GOOD NEWS that you have your own work to do. And you do.

You have a way of not seeing your role in a major issue which is that almost all of the problems you list in your first post are ongoing & never addressed in ways that require genuine change in your behavior.

It's as if you believe changing on your end means "Losing". Marriage is not a war.


Growing up, How were conflicts in your family worked out?

What did forgiveness look like, or

was there much forgiveness shown in your childhood?

What do you want to work on in yourself?

[KGuy]

So, if I understand this^^^you brought up D, correct?

No, if i recall, she brought up D, although it was related to her demand that she rename the youngest child, so i may have actually said the actual word after she said it in another way. she had been bringing the D word up recently off and on about three months prior to this climax.

why did you do^^^ this? What was the goal?

Sigh, I was just fed up. For over a month, she was sleeping in a separate room at one point displacing the 3 y/o from her bed and making her sleep on the floor. To my W's credit, she said she was not sleeping well in the master BR. That was the source of another less serious incident that only involved a power struggle over the kid and not any physical assault.

In hindsight, Was this a battle worth fighting?

Probably not, but my thinking at the time was that i had the kid duty in the morning and the evening. It was harder to take the kids their bath's separately. She had put me in that position a few times before that and it made those tasks harder for me to do by doing their baths separately. Besides, it wasn't like she was feeding at the time, she was doing other things while holding the child. She usually feed the youngest one right before bed after I gave both kids their bath. That was the routine. When the youngest fell asleep, then she could go straight to bed and not be disrupted by giving a bath later. That was the routine and i asked for that reason.In hindsight she was very specific in that request and it was unusual compared to their normal routine. I should have listened better at that time and inquired why she was so insistent on feeding then.

why would you resist? She wanted to nurse the baby, who was thirsty. I'm confused about the power struggle here. What are the underlying issues in your opinion?

Dig deep.

At the time i was thinking that the W wasn't producing that much milk, and it needed to be supplemented. Further, she was at the sink when i walked in and didn't seem like it was as urgent as before. There are underlying issues for both of us here, but focusing on mine, i guess i felt that i could feed the baby just as well as she could and when she didn't respond right away when i came in the kitchen, i went to act on that impulse to just start on it myself. When she physically tried to take the child from me, i instinctively resisted her trying to take the baby forcefully from me. The child is our child, not HER child after all. There is a lot of things leading up to this that made me feel threatened here. Perhaps i glossed over those in my bullets. If i had found this site first of the year and started this thread then, this would be part 20 i'm sure if i had not left a whole lot out.

ugh

I know, I know... The suggestion came up to give the kid to the MIL while we were struggling, once i registered, i relented.

why?

This is definitely me scared here. She was trying to record the event, it just gave me a sense of deja vu from my last marriage and i just wanted to protect myself somehow.

so, she kneed you in the groin b/c you were getting away? Would she say it was in self defense if she were here?

I honestly don't know what she'd say, but it couldn't vary far from what i stated if she was honest. I never touched her, she was going after the phone that i had at the time and i was trying to get away from her. She chased me from the kitchen into a separate room to prevent me from going further when this happened. When talking to the MIL about the whole thing later, she said what she witnessed in the kitchen was mutual. I guess i agree with that, but reminded her i had the child initially. I am stronger and bigger than her, but i was in retreat. I know the image sound silly and it truly is, however, I didn't (and never) want to be in a position where i have to defend myself against the one i care about. If i had stood my ground though, what do you think would have happened? I would have preferred to talk it through and reason with her why we were where we were.

Kguy, - this^^^ sounds like a mutual fray with 2 people who both need anger management inside an odd power struggle.

Which at least is a clear path for you to do your personal work in, imo.

Yeah, i agree i was angry and resentful that she wouldn't respect that i had the kid and had things under control. Thinking about your post, i think i can honestly say that i have been holding resentment for quite some time about things that have happened in our R. I'll get to that in my response to your other post.
To come to my W's defense, I will say here that during this time she was exhausted for various reasons. This was why i had asked her mom to cook and also why i had been taking over all the child duties from the moment i walked in until they were in bed.

this is an unusual concidence, don't you think? Have you ever worked on getting better coping skills for this?

Well, the two instances weren't exactly the same, but yeah they are similar. I was told by a couple of lawyers after the first marriage that creating an incident where the police are called is a dirty lawyer trick for the women in the divorce to get the upper hand in a custody battle. Strangely enough, i think my W may have been coached on this by her lawyer, but she got scared when it turned on her that she had actually done the worst of it. Unfortunately for me, all i had was two ripped garments, some sore privates and all the witnesses related directly to the offender.

Well, what are you doing to work on this trigger? It's a pattern, and you have mentioned 3 separate incidents - and in each case you blame your ex w and your present wife.

Three separate incidents? There were only two where a claim of "assault" took place. The first M, the X claimed assault. This time, i made the call, although i didn't have the heart to follow through with pressing charges. I can see where it sounds like a pattern as i'm sure her lawyer could as well. As a side note, the W contacted my 20 y/o D asking for my X's contact information after this happened. My D does not like her and called me to tell me what she had requested. Not that this sways anything in either direction, she could have asked because she was genuinely worried about my health i reckon.

I don't know what i can do to work on this trigger. I think i will work on it by not having any more kids for one. As i said i didn't physically initiate anything nor did i use physical means to stop it besides pulling away and trying to get away from the situation. In this case i was actually trying to avoid the situation by leaving the room and the W came after me. In the previous M, the X also approached me putting her finger on my nose to provoke me. From talking with lawyers in that industry, it appears its recommended for unethic reason IMO. How do you suggest i work on this. I see your other post about forgiveness (which i will address separately), but how am i supposed to work on how i react to something that is designed to attempt to put me in a bad light solely for the purpose of putting me at a disadvantage on seeing the kids. Luckily, the judges see right through this sort of thing my lawyers from both M stated. If you have any suggestions as to how i could cope with this better, i'm all ears.

but you just said there are prior incidents in your previous m.

As i stated above, the previous incident was provoked and seen for what it was by the judge. I told my W everything on the other incidents and perhaps she thought she could do the same thing and have better results? I don't know.

so you are saying your wife set you up? That she trapped you into a fight?

Yes, that is what i am saying for certaiin on the first M, and pretty sure on the second M.
One other thing i glossed over in my attempt to summarize:
The W went to speak to two lawyers on what her rights were in Januaryish. The second lawyer she spoke to she told her mom was a "counselor" and that this "counselor" had told her to be mean. Her Mom had mentioned that "counselor" was in a certain area of town. She told her Mom she didn't want to use that "counselor". When she got the lawyer and i got the address of the Lawyer, the address was from that section of town. A little reach to get there for me, but not much of one especially in light of what she tried to do during our struggle for preparations on who would get custody.

[KGuy]

Thanks 25yearsmlc, your observations make me think about my situation from a unbias viewpoint.

I would not keep digging into the "w is in weaning withdrawal" as the reason for your marital problems.

While it MAY be a small factor I think you are letting yourself off the hook almost completely and here's the thing

if you were a perfect h, you would now be powerless to improve things or change the dynamic,

I'll be the first one to say I'm not perfect and i am definitely powerless to change the dynamic or improve the R.

Actually, I am quite sure weaning is a factor for the divorce, but i agree it is not a factor in our M problems which are substantial. However, let me be clear that i am quite sure it accentuated the underlying issues. When i look at the actions in all three cases of serious talk of ending the MR or actual D proceedings (three kids of hers at the same stage and the timing of my W's last divorce), the signs point to it being a major factor in the final decision even though the underlying issues are very different (for the other M that is). If anything, I'm looking at this as a reason why my W's actions to end our M could be forgiven, certainly not letting me off the hook for things i can improve within myself.

so in very real way, it's GOOD NEWS that you have your own work to do. And you do.

Well, i'm not so sure about the good news part, but i do welcome the time for re-evaluating this M and myself.

You have a way of not seeing your role in a major issue which is that almost all of the problems you list in your first post are ongoing & never addressed in ways that require genuine change in your behavior.

I agree, there are a large number of issues listed that are not resolved.
Clearly i have stated i have issues. I own that and work on that even prior to these events i list as well as the M. She also has issues and not just the weaning issues. More-ever, we have issues on each of our issues and the spiral goes on. When we were in MC this time, she refused to compromise at all. The previous time we were in MC she would implement change to a mutually agreed compromise and it would be good for while, but then she would revert back to previous behavior. During our R, I have always been the one to yield and instigate change to patch any bumpy parts of our R. mind you there are some things i would not yield on and held my ground, but i would always be the one to find the common ground where we could live in better harmony. I think i've now become resentful of that and refused to just give in once i realized the list of compromised demands wouldn't relent. In any case, i can only work on me now, and , as you point out, there is plenty to do. On the other hand, i like parts of me just fine.

It's as if you believe changing on your end means "Losing".

When I am the only one doing any changes, then yes, i do feel like i am the loser in this. I have been giving in to her needs this time and two years ago because she is the mother of my children and i wanted to do things that we mutually wanted which would make her smile again keep her and the kids happy. In between i have changed/compromised plenty of times, i just didn't list those in my summary above because thoe weren't related to the downfall.

Marriage is not a war.

No, but Divorce is and thats what she filed. The way i see it, she took my children similar to how Germany took most of Europe. At least it wan't like the previous M where it was more like Pearl Harbor. I am prepared for war when it comes to taking my kids away or even throwing them to the pits of divorce where they are now at a disadvantage.

Growing up, How were conflicts in your family worked out?

What did forgiveness look like, or

was there much forgiveness shown in your childhood?

I grew up in a Christian family. My Mother was a teacher and the perfect model of forgiveness. My parents were good role models and never argued in front of us kids and did what it took to keep their marriage alive for 50 years before my mother died. I truly respect that and feel all the more of a failure for not succeeding in not one, but two marriages. Does that answer everything? I'm honestly not sure, but i hope it did.

I must admit i have a big problem when it comes to forgiving others which have wronged me. Especially when I've been wronged at a life changing level. In my M, there are many things that have happen over the 4 years we have been M that have cause me to be resentful of not only the W, but her kids as well. I feel taken advantage of and now thrown by the wayside when the need has been fulfilled. I further resent that the W takes funds that we work for together for means to serve her wants and not our M. I blame the Lawyers sometimes for her actions because i know they provide the means, but i said no to my L on a few occasions where i could have gotten down to the same level and it confuses e that she didn't. Being on the hook? i wish i could take her off.

What do you want to work on in yourself?

Honestly, i think my resentfulness has turned to irritation which has been transmitted whether its verbal, body language, or action that could be interpreted as anger. Recently, i have been working on this by letting thing go, or as George Castanza's Dad said "serenity now! serenity now!" Seriously, the serenity prayer is etched in my brain presently. I have tried to implement this letting go of anger in all communication, body language when discussing issues with W or any other social interaction as it is all encompassing. I also try to stop and listen more instead of plowing ahead and just waiting for the other person to finish not really listening to what they are saying.

As i said earlier, i have an issue with forgiveness and have tried to be better in this regard.

I still don't think i have come to grips with my Mother's passing. Even before this, i have tried to spend more time with my Dad to help him through his grief. In helping him, i help myself as well.

up until your post, i hadn't though past those three "internal" improvements. I was focused instead on GAL events, trying to get back to things i enjoy doing or that will improve my life in other ways. My focus internally ha been a reflection on complaints my W mentioned in MC as a start and then once comfortable, i would branch out to more changes once i felt comfortable. I'll honestly say though that i prefer stability over change, however, i know there must be a balance. IMO though, she wasn't the best communicator, and most recently when she communicated it was only about the physical changes (she wanted a new house, improvement/cleaning on our marital house, more free time to frolick in the sun without responsibility, different way of managing finances, pay everyone to do things instead of trying to DIY everything, etc.)
I'll have another look at my list above and see where you are getting where its all my fault. Surely i have fault in any interaction whether its good or bad in my R, but i like the idea to look at it from an improvement perspective. you are correct, they are issues that are unresolved. The problem is that most require work as a couple which will limit some progress.

Thanks again for you thoughts, they are greatly appreciated.

Its very late for me so i probably have quite a few typos in here.

Thanks again

[25yearsmlc]

KGuy


You wrote a lot. Um, I'll be brief for now (relatively).

I don't think this is all your fault and did not say that. I just felt that your first post was a lot about how you were a victim. And blaming the weaning as the big factor.

She has other children, and one prior divorce, so are you saying that unless she is pregnant or nursing a baby, she's too difficult?

Also, while I said that marriage is not a war, your response was "but divorce is war".

Though we could debate that, my point was about the marriage, not the divorce. Inside your marriage, prior to this divorce filing, you two have had a stormy relationship.

There does seem to have been a power struggle, and a lot of score keeping.

I'm sorry to hear about your mom. When did she pass away? Do you have siblings?

And though I love hearing about peaceful marriages, sometimes I wonder about couples who "never" fight in front of the kids,

it does make me wonder how they did resolve conflicts. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting you or them).

But since Every couple has conflict, it's possible that you are so unused to seeing people with different opinions who feel strong emotions, stay and work through it,

so that it's foreign to you. When you say they had a Christian marriage, what does that mean to you?

(I'm a believer, so it's not a challenge for me to ask. I just want you to define the terms).

As for feeling powerless to change the dynamic, I don't agree. You are not powerless. This relationship has two people in it.

When one person changes how they behave or interact, the relationship changes by definition. Seriously.

Here are some random thoughts...

The houses and DIY projects are stressful. ( I know this from personal experience.)

If they seem endless, it starts to feel hopeless. It wears on you.

And the chaos of small children

(I love kids, and I'm one of 9, so please don't misunderstand that)

is a lot. Sorry I may have missed it but is your wife a stay at home mom? That means no get away time,

so That is a lot of time to be in noise and chaos and see no end in sight to the house issues.
it's very classic scenario for tempers flaring.

Before you say that you too felt unheard, listen to yourself and see how unproductive the score keeping is. In your MC you report that you made more changes than she did or that she'd stop, etc.

Fundamentally speaking, what is the problem?

Not about the fight or the chores, but about respect and blending the families and sharing the same values and effectively acting as a team.

Can you look at those^^ without assigning blame?

Might be helpful.

PS Just so you know, I'm a lawyer. But a nice person.

I have to admit I struggle not to dislike my h's lawyer. It's hard to know who is directing what, however. Very odd sensation for me. Not good.

[KGuy]

You wrote a lot. Um, I'll be brief for now (relatively).

Your reply was brief? I do tend to write allot and have been criticized for that at work...lol. I like to try and get my point across or completely answer you question in this case and perhaps go into too much detail. You did say i glossed things over earlier, now you see why. Its also good to put it out there to discuss, i value your (and other's) input and it provides insight to perhaps redirect my focus on what i can do. That the point of this forum after all. I probably should post in smaller chunks to keep this thread up top for the best possibility of input as cadet suggests, but i think i also need time for reflection on each input as well, so i am good with it.

I don't think this is all your fault and did not say that. I just felt that your first post was a lot about how you were a victim. And blaming the weaning as the big factor.

I still haven't gone back to reanalyze my original bullet list. If it comes off as I'm the victim, i wrote it wrong and should clarify. I do want too be clear that i am well aware that i have blame in our R. Wish i could edit it, but i don't think thats possible here.

She has other children, and one prior divorce, so are you saying that unless she is pregnant or nursing a baby, she's too difficult?

No, I think i'm actually saying the opposite.

I am saying that at the time her SD13, D3 and D1.5 all started to eat solid foods (causes less consumption of breast milk and a withdrawal from the "good" chemicals associated with feeding), all the "issues" that we had a status quo on previously, were now bigger issues to her worthy of a D. Add to that, the house was a mess and at this time the kids were getting mobile and starting to walk and that needed to be dealt with. All these components led her to just want to leave the situation and start anew. I suspect (well hope), that after the weaning is done and the "withdrawal" from the lack of chemicals resides, she will be in a different place.

Of course i could be wrong and she just wants to leave the situation. Hard to say now, she isn't talking to me.

Upon reflection on both yours and my posts on the physical struggle, she may also just think that it can't continue like this and walk away because of that. I suspect she shifts the blame on me based on what i (mind) read the neighbor had said. If that is the case, i just need to show that we can not feed on each other when we interact while I am DBing. As far as I'm concerned, i feel that "in sickness and in health" apply here and I'll wait until i know its not the weaning issue before reassessing my situation.

Also, while I said that marriage is not a war, your response was "but divorce is war".

Though we could debate that, my point was about the marriage, not the divorce. Inside your marriage, prior to this divorce filing, you two have had a stormy relationship.

There does seem to have been a power struggle, and a lot of score keeping.

Agree on both counts. I would welcome a debate the Divorce is war. I remember my L saying during some of our discussions that i needed to do X and i couldn't just "try" if i only tried we would lose and she wanted to win. The only ones that win are the lawyers though. The MC mentioned something about a book on how divorce is a business . I need to remember to ask her about that book and put it on my read list. Either way though, with kids involved it really shouldn't be.

You are correct that the MR is not war though, but there is definitely a power struggle going on in our MR. I've always tended to stand my ground and require her to convince me to change and i've told her that. She is used to people just doing what she tells them to do or after her explanation they'll see her way and relent. That is a bias opinion of course, but it is the way i feel about it anyway.

As for the scorekeeping, i definitely feel i am the one that keeps giving every time and the "counting" just comes from me looking back and thinking "yeah, i am being taken advantage of". The W and I will discuss an issue that she initiates a change and come to an agreement where we compromise. We make the changes and all is well for awhile. She then comeback later (after the changes are done mind you) and says she is not happy with the situation and wants changes. Guess what changes she wants to make? All the things that got compromise in the previous discussion all come back. This causes resentment on my part after continually happening.

This time i put my foot down and didn't even table a discussion on something that she wanted to revise from a previous compromised agreement.

I'm sorry to hear about your mom. When did she pass away? Do you have siblings?

Thanks, she died the end of 2014, right before the last time we had issues where serious talk of D was mentioned.

And though I love hearing about peaceful marriages, sometimes I wonder about couples who "never" fight in front of the kids,

it does make me wonder how they did resolve conflicts. (Don't get me wrong, I'm not doubting you or them).

Not saying they didn't have disagreements in front of us. They may have a conversation where they would clearly be on different sides of the "argument", but they always shelved it in front of us. You could tell my mom was upset about things by if she sighed or perhaps gave my Dad a dirty look. Years later i asked him about this and he told me they made it a point not to ague in front of us and talk about it later when we were not there. Another thing my Dad said was that my Mom never wanted to go to bed mad at each other and made it a point to try and at least talk about thing to resolve them before they would go to bed. I find that admirable and wished my W would have done that in our M. IMO my Dad catered to her quite a bit at his expense at times, but thats not a bad thing really. When i was younger, i thought he got walked over quite a bit, but i know better now. Since she has been gone he has said that she drove their marriage to what it was. I think he is underplaying his role, but for him to say that says lots about their marriage. I admire their marriage and sure wish i could have something similar.

But since Every couple has conflict, it's possible that you are so unused to seeing people with different opinions who feel strong emotions, stay and work through it, so that it's foreign to you.

Yeah, my parents were very similar people so i agree with this. My role models did not prepare me for this much conflict. I knew we would have some conflict going in though and embraced it. To your point though, i may have not worked on meshing the differences enough perhaps. The W told me she had a conversation with her Mom when we were first dating that she was concerned that we were so different. Her Mom told her that was a good thing and when she told me, i agreed. I told her i thought it was a good thing and that she introduced me to a different way of thinking that i would not have considered if we weren't together.

When you say they had a Christian marriage, what does that mean to you?

(I'm a believer, so it's not a challenge for me to ask. I just want you to define the terms).

My Mom drove this as well. She was raised going to Church every week, sung in the choir, volunteered on many groups that helped people. Outside the church, she was a teacher and influenced many lives. She taught early grade school. I remember going to a graduation one time of a student who she taught many years before. To me that speaks volumes of who she was. I would say my Dad was spiritual, but not as religious but thats my opinion. I tended to his thinking early in life, but have had experiences that definitely have made me more religious now so I'm a mix between those two beliefs now. Still, my Dad fully supported my Mom to raise us as a church-going family. His mother was very religious as well.

As for feeling powerless to change the dynamic, I don't agree. You are not powerless. This relationship has two people in it.

When one person changes how they behave or interact, the relationship changes by definition. Seriously.

Yeah, I've read the DB book and am about 90 pages into the DR book and do agree with this. I will say its a new concept to me that the R can change if only one person acts. It seems very feasible and i wished i had found the book the last time the W and I discussed D seriously. Ultimately, we both have to come together though and sometimes that is the hardest part.

The houses and DIY projects are stressful. ( I know this from personal experience.)

If they seem endless, it starts to feel hopeless. It wears on you.

Don't I know it. Before we were married we both had (at least) one house a piece. She didn't want to just go and live in my house and insisted we get a house together. We did this, but within a year, the new house required a major plumbing job. That coupled with us trying to get our other houses in shape to rent/sell does cause a lot of stress. That amplifies your point to at least threefold. I have two additional houses as well that add to the stress. Those are a little different though as one is a rough camp house and the other is a long distance rental which i have someone else do the work since i am not down there.

To my W's credit, she wanted me to just pay people to do work on our houses here because she knew i was spending too much time away from her (when working on my house). I was coming around to her thinking, but i still couldn't let go of some of the DIY stuff. This argument also carried into our belief system on the chores for the older kids, which i still haven't come around on. We had a time there where she made me aware the work was affecting my ability to take some of the kid load off of her and would remind me that she needed help at the house. I was able to drop what i was working on and be more attentive when she did that. I tend to focus on the job and tune out things.
This is also true of my full time job and i really appreciated her call to tell me that she was overwhelmed and needed my help.

And the chaos of small children

(I love kids, and I'm one of 9, so please don't misunderstand that)

is a lot. Sorry I may have missed it but is your wife a stay at home mom? That means no get away time, so That is a lot of time to be in noise and chaos and see no end in sight to the house issues.
it's very classic scenario for tempers flaring.

Fully agree on this. She is not a SAHM, which makes it even more overwhelming. I would go one step further to say that this coupled with her breast feeding is exactly the straw that broke the camel's back for her. She just feels/felt tired, overwhelmed and most likely thinks i don't support her enough leaving her in a wore down state. There were times this was probably true when i took on the big project on the house i had before the marriage and she does have a point (i also have a counter, but will not go there) After I finished the big job on my house, I made sure i took the load off her as much as i could (these past two years). In fact, my going for the whole milk instead of was my way of trying to take the load off her in a way. Both of us didn't communicate our intentions/complaints to each other. We are both to blame for that.

Fundamentally speaking, what is the problem?

Not about the fight or the chores, but about respect and blending the families and sharing the same values and effectively acting as a team.

Can you look at those^^ without assigning blame?

Might be helpful.

I'm actually to the part of the DR book where you write your objectives which ties intoo this i guess. I'm still thinking about this one, and i think i addressed some of the issues above.

1) lack of communication. I would include that we also need to work on how we project ourselves in this.
2) Inconsistent rules on how to raise ALL the children
3) Lack of time together. I would include more intimacy here as well, when we are intimate, we definitely got along better.
4) Lack of time as a family. Inclusion of all family events for both of us.
5) Lack of discussion of our goals. I would like to break it down into 5 year increments (where do we want to be in each timeframe and go from there, etc)

PS Just so you know, I'm a lawyer. But a nice person.

I have to admit I struggle not to dislike my h's lawyer. It's hard to know who is directing what, however. Very odd sensation for me. Not good.

I guess i won't hold it against you...;) Kinda gets back to the Divorce is war discussion...

I didn't try to get to know any of my Ls that well really, but they seemed like nice enough people. Family Lawyers see allot though and probably just detach from the emotion or even morality of the situation i think. Its just a job to them and lets face it, their clients are pushing them to do things as well. Over the years, i'm sure they are pushed in areas that they don't want to go and they see the results and think "why not pass that onto my other clients.

When my W wanted a D back in 2015, she wanted us not to even have L and go to a mediator. An "easy, amicable divorce" she said. That would be the only way a D could be peaceful if both parties willingly gave up. I don't believe that and feel you should fight for marriage until every last thing is tried.

When the W moved out to next door, she filed for D right away but didn't serve me. I didn't know this then. The W wouldn't let me have the youngest one for more than a couple hours at a time which caused me to interview two L. The first L told me i could file a parent-child suit only. I liked the 2nd L better and requested for the L to file such a suit to which she resisted and convinced me to file for D. Although torn up about it, i relented and signed what i needed for her to do it. I felt God softened her heart and she emailed the next morning and said she could do as i requested, but it would put me at risk should my W file for D. Turns out she did , but i made the call to do something i felt could be the last attempt at saving the marriage yet standing up on the issue of her with-holding the youngest child from me. After mediation, my L told me that now that it ws over, at least i would know i took the high road, and i do.

When i see dirty tricks performed by L, i know the L had influence, but also understand that their client (my W) let them do that after possibly being convinced. I make the call that my W is not thinking clearly right now and was talked into some things she did. It may not be true (as it was with the 1st W i believe), but i won't know that until after the W's stated 2 year timeframe of breast feeding (plus a weaning period). By then it'll be too late for the M, unfortunately...

I know, another long post....