Less than 30% 😂. I actually told W 2 weeks ago that I wanted her gone ASAP. I'm going to focus on GAL and give W the attention she craves when I am available, but not too much. Apparently OM gives very little attention, but yet is highly desired by W...smh. So I am going to take a page out of his book.
Must've little confused about what you mentioned. I understand that W unafraid to give the MR another try. So are you implying that OM is a plan B that she is keeping around. An issue in a MR was that W felt O wasn't give her enough attention. Which is difficult because the rules say that I should give W space. This contradicts the 180 I need to do in giving W more attention. So I only have so much attention, since Db'ing. And backed off when I felt she didn't want me around.
When I decided to detach, she heavily started to pursue OM for that attention. So my question is did detaching make things worse in my sitch? Do I guve her that attention, while semi-detaching?
Keep in mind that of course I am still working on my own sitch and have NOT resolved much beyond a gut feeling and seeing improved behavior from both of us. But honestly I think here is where your gut should dictate a lot of what you do.
When I initially detached and went on a trip she invited OM over. She in fact discussed being exclusive with him. She was done with our MR. She felt sick in her stomach to think about being with me. Doing all of this also made her feel depressed so she started reaching out more. She told me she felt more compassion towards me once she started doing this. AND of course she saw the nice guy act (she was convinced it was an act that I was making these changes) but she did notice them and she did start to get confused as to what it is she needed/wanted.
However, after I discovered the PA she tried to continue a R with both of us. My initial response (out of fear) was to say: I suppose....... Saying this delayed our process because clearly this wasn't going to work out at all. It confused her. it confused me. Lots of other emotions. BUT while there is not a NC (unless SHE just doesn't want to tell me) I have seen improvements in the way she acts around me. SHE seems to try to figure this thing out. She hasn't said she wants to try again. But she has continued to say she wants to feel in love. While she says that she has done pretty much anything the MC has asked her (both of us) to do. So my gut tells me that while it's not ideal I have to just give this a shot (partially because of my own flaws). It is also the "don't believe anything they say but half of what they do" and what she does is making me think she IS working on our marriage. She is letting go off her emotional support network (her friends...and OM) more and more by being less and less on her phone.
My W has come around a lot (she might be faking it, but then why not just move out, it cannot just be concerns about finances that makes her show more warmth, respect, compassion for me in recent weeks).
It seems that your W isn't quite acting like my W is now BUT she might be working to that point. The fact she is doing something nice. Was she doing that in previous weeks. Is this a recent change? If it is recent I would personally see it as a small step forward. But that is something NONE OF US can know besides you. That's why I say: experiment returning doing some nice things and see how she reacts. If you continue to see small signs of progress keep doing it.
One question though: are you saying she felt OM wasn't giving her enough attention? Or that you weren't giving her attention making her pursue OM? If it is the latter you shouldn't go full pursuit...but making her feel attractive or a kind compliment (non romantic) might be a good idea. That is what I keep reading on here and in DR (and in other online sources).
But this exact problem that by detaching you might give her more reason to interact with OM is what confused and made me scared. Making her decide to go NC OR move out of the home might be what it is you need to do IF you feel she is cake eating. IF you feel it is fear that prevents her from fully recommitting than you can try to remove any source of fear.
OR if you want a shorter answer: if by detaching she grows closer to OM than it means it wasn't meant to be. But, if one of the reasons OM is in the picture is because you weren't there for her or she thinks you don't think she is important to you, than detaching needs to include also doing 180s. How much? which ones? those can only be discovered through trial and error ("see what works").
if it was easy or straightforward, we wouldn't see these long threads that go up and down...
It was me not got giving her enough attention that made her pursue OM. So I shouldn't go full pursuit? I have seriously done 180s. But detaching contradicts me giving my W the attention she craves.
Figured maybe I should just focus on W and not bring up that I know she is having an EA with OM. She becomes more defiant when I bring him up. Not sure if she is being nice now, because she cares about me or does OM just makes her a happier person?
W seemed shocked when I told her to leave, because I felt that she crosses a boundary by still associating with OM. I was fed up at that point. And didn't feel I should tolerate that in my own home.
Before I forget, W has been nice off and on. Throughout this whole ordeal, but things change when OM shows up in the picture. I can see a personality shift that she doesn't see. It's a selfish mentality which bases on her having what she wants regardless who gets hurt because of her actions. And my W get a that way for OM.
I think that there maybe some confusion. W hasn't had a PA with OM since late November, which was a couple of times on a cruise ship. And probably one other time when we were visiting family in town. The two has planned to continue to sneak and see each other. But that is when I quickly caught onto the A. Which was two weeks after it first started. From that point, it has turned into an EA/obsession on my W part.
Right, but she may have met up with him as recently as that business trip a couple of months ago, right? And you think she's still in contact with him. There's really no difference to your sitch between a PA and EA. She's checked out either way, and you are Plan B. I still stand by what I said, at some point you'll get tired of it and truly detach like TXHubby did, and at that point she may snap out of it.
I agree with what your saying. W has checked out. And I thought I had detached, but again it's hard with her in your face being nice. I often wonder if she has her own strategy going from a wayward book. But I was serious about taking the TxHubby route.
Honestly. I don't know. Your dilemma is PRECISELY my dilemma. There is an OM and it seems there is an emotional attraction.
Some on here say: enforce boundary. Some say ignore there is an OM and work on yourself There is probably other advice.
I don't think pursuit is the answer BUT showing kindness towards her and giving her compliments IF you normally didn't do that is NOT a violation of DB/DR. Now if she responds with intimacy that's where the advice from DB/DR seems to go in different ways. But I personally see intimacy as lifeblood of a R. Just don't make it more than what it is "having a good time at the moment". I don't know if withholding intimacy helps if one the reasons of wanting out of the M was because of not getting enough attention. Certainly, don't be overly romantic, begging, pleading, convincing how the marriage wasn't all bad. But I don't think the opposite is always the right thing either.
The defiance is one of two things. I am guessing Sandi2 will come here and say it means you need to enforce the boundary and your W hates that you hold her accountable and don't let her eat her cake. By enforcing her boundary she might be angry but in the end she will respect you. I think a lot of the times that is right.
I will repeat myself that ultimately you have to follow your gut. Maybe she is shocked because she thought she could stick around and take advantage of you while also being in contact with OM. By insisting NC you may get her to recognize she is about to losing something great. Or by moving out she may recognize what she thought was desirable isn't ideal.
If you think you need to make changes to yourself than GAL with her in the home and doing all these awesome things without bothering to see if she wants to join you might help her recognize she is an idiot. In the meantime if there are increasingly nice interactions with each other that to me is a good thing.
And of course, I only accept my wife's explanation of OM as a friend because she is afraid of me and feeling trapped. She has said she knows what is expected of her once we recommit. So while I am taking a risk ultimately I am trying to show my W that I accept responsibility for making her feel scared and trapped. I have noticed changes. I wouldn't be this way if I didn't see them. I would have kept with where I was two Saturdays ago during the session where I said that there is no hope and that I am done and will let her go since she cannot let go off OM. Her behavior after that convinced me that fear was really there and that unless she is an actress she doesn't know what she feels and she doesn't want to rush things. If it turns out that I am being played then I can walk away knowing that I gave it my all, TRUSTED her (when maybe I shouldn't have) and given her space that she asked for and in the meantime been there for her when she needed me and ACCEPTED it when she needed some alone down time. I can respect myself if she walks away from that. If SHE can respect herself that she is only being nice to fool me and really is just biting her time than that is not a person I want to be with. But at the end of the day despite what I THOUGHT... I am finally now acting like the H that she needed all these years. It has been since late April that I begun my self reflection and I had some setbacks (which all connected to her fears and not just that OM was involved).
But it's my gut. (along with MC and a friend who was skeptical about W and is now saying maybe I do need to give it time)
Your w complained that you ignored her so you feel detaching and giving space and time is just another form of ignoring her, so how will that make things better?
I struggled with this same question. I posted a lot. I called a d b coach. There's no easy answer but if you keep at it you will figure it out for your situation.
Read the books. Read the detaching thread. Read the pursuit and distance thread. Listen to the vets like doodler and anotherstander. There's a lot of wisdom for you. Some will apply to you but not all.
Gordie 40s W 40s M20+ kids 2016 BD W fantasy affair w OM1 I do everything wrong 2017 I start to DB W says TLTL files for D PA w OM2 2018 I do LRT W drops filing and OM2 situation slowly improving
I've read all the threads trying to get answers for my sitch. Initially I made the mistake of trying to pursue her, because I knew she wanted my attention. But apparently she doesn't want that anymore. So after discovering DB'ing, I stepped back. And that drew her to me. But also knew that one of my 180s would be being more attentive to her and pursuing more. So I give her attention when I can, but not too much. To be honest women like attention, but if you give them too much attention that lose interest. There has to be something for them to chase. Which is why my W is pursuing OM who has put zero effort with her.
"So I give her attention when I can, but not too much. To be honest women like attention, but if you give them too much attention that lose interest. "
This is a tough one. But I think the DB/DR speaks about this in terms of not going too fast: you see progress and want to take it a step further. I think that is what your comment is speaking to. I need to constantly reminds myself that one smile, one hug is nice and it's just that.
If she really would be losing interest simply because you give her attention then that is an issue that will continue in the R. Gottman speaks of the pursuer-distancer pattern. the only solution to that is if both the pursuer and the distancer recognize this and change. In fact, it's why our R deteriorate. The pursuer gets tired, stops, the distancer gets surprised suddenly does exactly what the pursuer needs and then when the pursuer pursues again the nice behavior stops. At some point the distancer is done with the relationship.
And let's face it. Us men desire attention too, perhaps even more than women.
The way I have been implementing this is that when we get home I go to the master bedroom until my W asks if I want to hang out. Sometimes if we have been having a decent time together when we get home after work (we work at same place and I am the only driver) I sometimes just kiss her (because I barely did that in the past) and say that if she wants to lay down and listen to music and have a moment for herself to do so and maybe later we can hang out. I try to not have her do ALL the work but I put the decision in her shoes. At the same time one of our issues is not doing things together so I make sure that chores and such I don't do unless we both are working on it. She thought I always just did them and didn't wait for her so I let her take control. But a few times I gently inquire to see if she wants to do it to reinforce the team nature and not put all the work and burden on her.
I try to feel it out but after we hang out or speak I try to be the one ending the conversation. It's a fine line and sometimes it's hard to pick the moment.
Now my W is an introvert (and acts very outwards at work so that drains her energy). But because of her work experience where she is more extroverted she has become more out of her shell and I failed to recognize that early on. When my W has a moment to herself she comes out with more energy. Sure. Before I discovered the PA she probably was chatting with him a bunch in her own room. She may still do that...although I know for a fact (because we hang out with those people later) that she speaks to others. Sometimes they call. But she DOES listen to music.
I am typing a lot but I do think that it's so CRUCIAL that each of us looks at our specific context and reasons that our W became WW. If something they need is directly linked to something we were bad at in the past we HAVE to accept it. If for example, our W requesting space without those explanatory elements then perhaps we can be less understanding.
This is the "observe and continue doing what works and change it if it doesn't work".
So for you, there is a different set of circumstances than for me. That is what Gordie means with "that is a difficult question to answer". With the risk of sounding like a broken record it seems to me that you can do a simple step of exchanging nice behaviors and interactions but also taking a step back and do things for yourself (GAL, detach whatever you want to call it). If SHE responds with more nice behaviors then I see that as a good sign. If she doesn't really change then perhaps you can do more detaching.
But Bulldog I think was the person in Sandi2's rules who speaks about sometimes being in the same place binge watching Netflix might actually help. I think he says when OM is out of the picture but I think it would even be good when he is still around. Do something together but not "together". There will be opportunities to do something nice: get a blanket, get some drinks. Not romantic stuff but doing something together that will offer NEW data to your W. (and more important she cannot be bored and miss OM).
TL;DR going back to your question that started this thread: to me IF your W wants to get back with you then yes she needs to respect you. It seems to me that stop doing what made her lose respect for you. This might be what Sandi2 says in enforcing boundaries and you certainly shouldn't validate or condone the PA or EA but I think Sandi2 would agree that you also need to combine that with improving the things that would increase her respect of you.
At the same time, because we are doing all this work, you now are in the odd position that perhaps initially you wanted to get her back but are now losing respect for her because she is not changing herself. So very well, working on yourself means that you are the one walking away from the R. So it comes back to following your gut as well and making sure that regardless of how you act now it's something that is okay with you.
You're doing well. No woman is ever going to respect a man that allows her to treat him like crap and carry on with an OM without any repercussions. No woman will desire a man that will allow that situation. My own wife has confirmed this. When I was doing nothing about her cheating, I was very unattractive to her. When I laid around the house lamenting her treatment of me and crying, I was even more unattractive to her. When I got strong, confident, and wanted very little to do with a cheating wh*re spouse then the script flipped and scared the hell out of her. Snapped her out of it and she realized I was the prize to be won, not a douche bag OM.
