Advice appreciated

[Tobias]

If we were able to look in on that MC session where you "lost it", what we see you doing? Do you scream, pace around, throw things, curse, threaten, try to punch something? What be the main thing we saw that told us you had lost it.

Funny you ask. I interrupted both the MC and W... probably the best term is "sounding frustrated" my W didn't seem to get that me getting emotional was because she keeps talking to OM. MC seems to agree. I did have tears near the end. So perhaps "losing it" doesn't describe it well but I was NOT calm, overly friendly and respectful.

As for as you considering an open M, have you ever been closely associated with the practice? I'm wondering if this more accommodation for your W.

See my response above this post. This keeps being brought up in here but in reality W hasn't mentioned it. At one point she said she wants to be single and date again (maybe that first week after I discovered PA) but when I mentioned that during our last MC session she shook her head and said no she just feels she needs to be out of the home and rest. (at which point I 'lost' it and frustratingly said: you can have all the rest you want if there is NC. She calls that blackmail.

Because I felt she was trying to feel the desire to work on our M again.

Based on something she said or did that caused you to feel this way?

She mentioned future steps. Liking that I can ease her anxiety. Looking for jobs for me in the state she wants to move to. Being more intimate towards me (not just sex)

Has the MC made it clear........or have you been disappointed the MC didn't express enough of what you wanted your W to hear? From the quote above, have you been disappointed in the MC or your W's response?

No MC said that at the end of intake session that it is best that there are no other people involved. W in car after session said she couldn't yet commit to that. I was accommodating and of course that caused inner turmoil with me. I hated the idea of another fight so I just nodded. MC made it VERY clear that in her knowledge no couple has successfully resolved things when there was someone else involved. She also told W that because she is in MARRIAGE counseling that speaking with a person ALSO going through breaking up their relationship only leads to confusion.

I wonder if I can stay calm for a prolonged period that maybe W would be more comfortable letting him go. Like I said above...her fear of me is legitimate despite me not wanting her to be afraid. But I can only accomplish that by staying calm REGARDLESS of what she does. (in her eyes the PA is completely separate from our issues which in some way is true)

So yes, disappointed in W that she cannot even let him go just yet. And I told her that if she does that that it doesn't mean we are fixed. But it would be easier for me to when she asks for space and privacy to just do my own thing.

Because I trust my W when she says OM and her are friends.
But I thought you snooped and discovered they were more than friends.

Yes. She claims they are friends. First week she wanted to date me one night and go to a hotel with him the next night. THANK GOD his work hours are insane so they just went for a drink. She claims that night she said she could be friends with him. Maybe a day or two later she said when I discovered PA she still expected to sleep with him again. But ever since she says the conversation has been about jokes. Apparently OM offered to remove himself but she claims she begged him not to abandon her. In MC W mentioned OM could be a resource WHEN we would be divorced as everyone else she knew there has a connection to me.

Is she in denial about this? Possibly. Would she sleep with him first chance she has? Maybe. But I decided to take a risk. Not only am I going to see a friend for a few days after mentioning in MC that I have been afraid to leave her alone. She either gets rest and perhaps wants to recommit...or if she sees OM and continues PA she would likely experience psychological distress again like it happened right before I discovered evidence. Now, this time I wouldn't necessarily have evidence but it should help with W's fear that I don't give her space and privacy. W also mentioned considering doing extended stay in a hotel for a week to see if she would miss me. It has a huge risk of her being able to see OM. But it is clear she cares about me. It's clear she is exhausted. So nothing will improve unless she finds rest.

Because I know I need patience and also need to sin for my failures as a H.
Do you feel your failures as a H, justifies your W's affair?

Umm. Partially. I think I am able to forgive her for this because I wasn't innocent. I heard her say she wasn't happy. I heard her ask for MC a few years ago. I knew I wasn't perfect.

But I don't think she is justified to continue doing this WHILE also talking about possible future steps with me (trips, fixing house, moving to another state). She validates that I have made changes and improvements so at this point I don't think she is justified to have an A.

Because I don't want to end things even though I know they should be ended because of financial reasons beyond emotional reasons.
Could you explain what you mean, please?

Well divorce means we both go from two incomes to one. From living relatively comfortable to struggling. Emotionally I still want us to be married but beyond that there is a great financial cost from divorce. Now if there was no emotional investment money shouldn't be the reason you stay married.

Because I see progress and every step forward I want it to be a larger step.
Can give one of the ways it has progressed?

When I came to this board she was cold almost mean. She would hide her naked body from me. She wouldn't even want to do anything like go to a movie. Since then she has wanted to spend time with me (and this has continued despite my emotional breakdowns), she went from basically no intimacy not even a hug to last week on the trip having sex once or multiple times every day. From laughing in my face that nothing could save the marriage to more and more talking about possible future plans. Now, mix in some fear as to how I reacted at times the progress stopped.

Because I think her talking to OM might make it easier on her.
I don't want to sound rude, however, this line of thinking is setting you up for something bad. You must not accommodate her EA/PA, nor a so-called "friendship" with OM.

Not rude at all. I kind of agree. But I have begged, demanded, pleaded, asked nicely both in and outside of MC to please enter NC. Other than insisting she leaves the house I don't see what else I can do. She now KNOWS I am not happy he is still around. And she claims that it has been weeks ago when she last talked to him deep into the night which is something she did early on...mostly because he works late hours.

Because I don't know if I can trust her saying nice things about me while also saying she doesn't know yet.

I mean... She doesn't know if she wants to be married yet says I look amazing, smell amazing, am amazing...all sorts of things. I guest worst case scenario she is lying. Best case scenario: she still is in love... other likely scenario: she cares about me but isn't in love.

Honestly, I asked her today to think about what it is she is missing in our R (other than our fights and conflict resolution needing improvement) she says she loves spending time with me, thinks we have great sexual chemistry and laughs with me. She calls me her best friend. To me marriage is a solid friendship where you love doing things with each other.

Because I am stubborn and a fighter and I hate giving up.
How do you act when you are stubborn and a fighter?

Well I am not telling her to just leave. It would be easy to just get this over with. I am basically living with someone who wants to be in her own room. Who doesn't say ILY. Who has already found someone she loves having sex with. Who is still there. I mean... that is a lot of extra things to deal with and especially knowing that with every day it drags on that I am wasting restarting my life. But I see it as I am already restarting my life and hopefully my W jumps on board at some point. It's easier to do that if she lives under the same roof.

Because I don't think but rather feel.
That's not good, b/c your wayward wife is operating out of emotions, also. There has to be someone with functional brain power!

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I agree In the first part I was able to do that and I slowly got her coming back. Then I discovered the PA and ever since I am having difficulty controlling emotions.

At the same time I am not turning down intimacy because I really feel it rebuilds some connection. It doesn't fix everything and I am trying not to initiate it. But I do think W missed some sexual passion with me for some while and maybe this will at least be a building block. Not that everything is fixed. But if she thinks of me just as a friend than not having any intimacy seems like a danger.