Why is this a surprise? She did exactly what everyone told you she would do if you dropped the rope and moved on. Are you finally going to listen to people, because the next steps are even more important than the ones you have just been through.
When you wrote your post about how things don't affect you like they do other people and you don't need counseling, I just felt so sorry for you. I see a guy who is so closed up emotionally that he doesn't even realize it. You think you are on some higher plane than everyone else, but you aren't even in the same zip code right now.
It is normal and natural to have feelings. It is normal to be upset when someone leaves you and says they want a divorce and to move on. It is ok to have emotion. You don't have to gut through it. You can lay on the floor in a weepy mess, feel those feelings, and move forward from them.
Please, if you want a chance with your wife (or with some other woman in the future) get yourself to a counselor to find out why you are so locked up and don't let people in. I feel a bit like Ginger now. I know you will deny it and make excuses.
I just want to see you let this poor girl in so the two of you don't miss out on someone who seems to generally care about you.
I have no idea what that means or if it means anything at all because it was a relatively short talk about us.
I think I've said this several times already, but I'll say it again- she is scared, confused and doesn't know what to do. She was depressed and miserable in your M (again I'm NOT saying that's all your fault, it was the overall situation), and she doesn't want to go back to that. But I think she still loves you and wants the M, but she's afraid to say that because she doesn't just want to go back to Cali and resume the old M.
So if you're still interested in recon, then just ask her what the perfect M looks like to her. What is it that she wants? Because she's never really verbalized that to you. She knows what she doesn't want, but what does she want?
In the nicest way possible, there is a very arrogant/defensive tone to pretty much all of your messages.
If all of us trying to help you on here can pick up on it, then I am sure your wife picks up on it also. You even mention your family and other people are advising her to get out.
Even though she is your wife, she owes you nothing, and she wants out for a reason. Because she is unhappy.
If you are so convinced that nothing bothers you and life moves on etc.. then why are you here? Its like your inner self wants help, but the way you defend yourself so strongly suggests you probably need to be a bit more honest with yourself.
It hurts.. we get it, but if you carry on as you are then I highly doubt this is going to end in a favorable situation for you both.
Where have I ever said my family advised her to get out? No one in my family or friends want our marriage to end and they are all very pro marriage! Her family and friends are the ones and there is a reason for that, which I have explained and it has little to do with me other than the color of my skin.
Forgive me for thinking someone would do something as simple as to actually call me when she said she would, it's a ridiculously easy thing to do. I do have expectations of people in general and treating someone with a small amount of respect is one of them.
Ive generally stopped posting to you, as most of the time I agreed with the advice you were already getting.
I did read this and thought it interesting that several pages back you had told W that you were going to write her a letter explaining something and never did. I understand why you didnt, and frankly, I think writing a letter would have done more harm than good. My point is more that you seem to take a lot of offense to this act when you kinda did the same thing not that long ago.
Originally Posted By: Cali08
These are questions that are so confusing to me.
As for this, one thing I can say from having spent some time around here reading probably hundreds of different situations is that any individual action by the WAS is incredibly difficult to interpret. There are so many possible reasons and motivations behind any individual action that it makes analyzing that single one incredibly difficult to get right. Why didnt she call that one time? Who knows - anything we say is just a guess.
Instead, I think it's better to look at trends. Like you said in a different post, "I think what scared her is that I was finally giving up on her." I think that this is an excellent insight. By being dark, it gave her the sense of what her life would be without you, and I think you can start to see the cracks.
Just my 2 cents anyway.
Believe me when I say that I really wanted to send her a letter as I have said and it does bother me that I didn't, but it is all because of the advise I got from here. The other fact s that she told me in so many words that she didn't care if I did and it wouldn't matter.
Cali, it looks like you're starting to get through to your W, but don't rush back into pursuit mode. Let her do the initiating now. If she wants to make this work, let her show you that. Like you said, the ball's in her court.
About you not sending your letter - I had this elaborate letter/poem/story I'd planned to send my W, and I decided to hold off. Looking back I'm really glad I didn't send it. It was too emotional and there was too much pressure. You might feel different about about not sending your letter after you've had some time to process things.
Your trip to see your W may not have really made much difference in the end, but I respect that you did what you felt you needed to do. I think we can all agree that she did sit up and notice when she felt like she was really losing you.
Me-47,XW-43 S13,S16 M:18 BD:4-23-17 W filed:7-17-17 (5 months of in-house separation hell) W moved out:1-6-18 D granted:2-15-18 Decree signed:3-29-18
Further more she talked about future things with me. About jobs I should look for and how good I am at coaching and that I should make it a full time job. It' was by far the most normal conversation I have had with her in months since this thing started.
Flying out to Virginia either helped you a lot or was a neutral. I feel it was the former and not the latter.
IMO, The job advice she is giving or probing with, means you moving. Not arguing about why you should stay, and the house, and the lost opportunities, and proximity to your family, etc...
You have made many promises about insights and things you have learned...things you regret doing/not doing.
Please use any opportunity you may have to salvage your m, to make changes in your trajectory. To keep those promises.
In other words, change how you treat & view your w, or neither one of you will be happy, for long.
Communication -oh my dear Cali, I do not think the written word is really your strength when it relates to emotions/relationships.
So when you communicate with your w, do it in person or on the phone, maybe emphasize the listening without the need to coach your w. It would be an easy trap to fall in
and before you deny ever doing that, STOP.... no one is accusing you. It's just advice. And FTR, I'm a L and know for a fact that in the start of my m I often gave oral arguments that I felt were organized and thought out and would inevitably lead to the conclusion I had come to so brilliantly.
In court, I won a lot. Not so much in my marital discussions. Some areas do not overlap as well as we'd like. Period.
I would advise against another letter to her. No. She reacted positively (though belatedly) to your in person visit. That's clear.
I know you say you will treat her differently, but I strongly fear that if she comes back, you'll see it as some sort of validation of the past choices you made (& that nothing of significance will be altered, over time).
In contrast, I think it would be a wonderful second chance for you - to use a precious gift wisely, and lovingly.
Make sense?
PS
I read your whole thread from the beginning. While It's true that I read many threads around here, I still could not recall you writing a specific thing about your racial differences, or why her parents/family would not support the m or have a good r with you. I have not re-read your whole thread to search & find those. I don't want to, but I feel like I'd remember them if they were not vague or cryptic.
And I still find your references opaque or forcing a lot of work from the reader. That's why I found your previous draft so unproductive.
But no matter. Just wanted you to know I did read your whole thread, parts of it more than once.
M: 57 H: 60 M: 35 yrs S30,D28,D19 H off to Alaska 2006 Recon 7/07- 8/08 *2016* X = "ALASKA 2.0" GROUND HOG DAY I File D 10/16 OW DIV 2/26/2018 X marries OW 5/2016
Why is this a surprise? She did exactly what everyone told you she would do if you dropped the rope and moved on. Are you finally going to listen to people, because the next steps are even more important than the ones you have just been through.
On the contrary, in my opinion, I believe that going to Virginia was really what sparked it. She even told me on the phone that she wished I had told her so she could have made arrangement to see me. That being said I have personally wanted to do just that and not talk to her anymore and go on with my life, but it was for selfish reasons and not her. It quite frankly would have been the easiest thing for me to do, but I strongly believed for my situation it wasn't the right things to do considering it would be repeating actions that were part of the problem in the first place. It was also not the advice given to me of my one and only DB coaching session. He agreed that I should also continue to contact her.
When you wrote your post about how things don't affect you like they do other people and you don't need counseling, I just felt so sorry for you. I see a guy who is so closed up emotionally that he doesn't even realize it. You think you are on some higher plane than everyone else, but you aren't even in the same zip code right now.
It is normal and natural to have feelings. It is normal to be upset when someone leaves you and says they want a divorce and to move on. It is ok to have emotion. You don't have to gut through it. You can lay on the floor in a weepy mess, feel those feelings, and move forward from them.
Come on man. This is so far from the truth and how many times do I have to say it. I don't function that way and never have. Ask my very own mother, father, brother, friends.....shoot ask my wife! I realize it is really hard to think that I'm not like others in this regard, but you know nothing of me personally or my training that I coach and continue to train myself.
The one thing not a single person who knows me would describe me as and that is emotional. I have said it so many times, I am basically happy or mad and it takes a whole lot to make me mad, such as my wife abandoning me. If it's just way to difficult for you to believe me in this regard then just don't or you can think of me as being not normal, which how others have described it in the past anyway. I have thought a lot about this because it is evident enough that I am not an emotional person and I don't go through the same process others do. This doesn't mean I'm some kind of psychopathy. Through discussion with friends on this very subject we have come to think that maybe, just maybe I process things emotionally much quicker than others, which might be do to my training, and I basically skip the process.
But, lying on the ground in a weepy mess is actually a funny thought to me. I just think to myself...WHY? Why would I do that? The answer is simple and I just wouldn't do it. It's literally not part of my being. So think all you want that you know how I am emotionally because it's what you do or go through, but you would be sorely disappointed to find that it isn't true. I hope this didn't come off in a bad way, because I realize you are helping me and I do thank you, but this subject is known by no one better than myself. I would ask you why would you think that I would want to lie about something like this in the first place? What good would that do me? Im sure you also think that I have a huge ego and that is fine too, but my ego has nothing to do with my marriage to my wife and what we are going through. Besides that, big ego's is something I dislike very much and it is also something that my training puts into check immediately. There is simply no room for the ego to exist if you actually want to improve.
Please, if you want a chance with your wife (or with some other woman in the future) get yourself to a counselor to find out why you are so locked up and don't let people in. I feel a bit like Ginger now. I know you will deny it and make excuses.
Jeez.... just call everything I disagree with you on an excuse then, but you just have to trust me on this subject. I am not locked up in anyway, I won't see a counselor by myself at all. If I do see a counselor it will be a marriage counselor and it will be with my wife.
I just want to see you let this poor girl in so the two of you don't miss out on someone who seems to generally care about you.
This right here is the truest thing from my perspective. I know I need to speak my mind more with my wife and just let her know what I am thinking, especially when she asks. Communicating with my with specifically in ways that makes sense to her is what I need to work on.
I have no idea what that means or if it means anything at all because it was a relatively short talk about us.
I think I've said this several times already, but I'll say it again- she is scared, confused and doesn't know what to do. She was depressed and miserable in your M (again I'm NOT saying that's all your fault, it was the overall situation), and she doesn't want to go back to that. But I think she still loves you and wants the M, but she's afraid to say that because she doesn't just want to go back to Cali and resume the old M.
So if you're still interested in recon, then just ask her what the perfect M looks like to her. What is it that she wants? Because she's never really verbalized that to you. She knows what she doesn't want, but what does she want?
She has already brought up coming back to Cali all on her own and her one thing she said she was afraid of was that I would give her the silent treatment and not talk to her for a long time.
When I get a chance and we work our way to that point I will ask her about that. What I have gathered from what she has told me and has told others it's not really about being in Cali. Here is what I feel she needs and wants. Make her my number 1 before the gym, friends, work and training. Spend quality time together and have weekly dates nights. Give her words of affirmation. Communicate more with each other and more clearly to come to resolutions. Discuss the our future and set goals. Take the time to visit her family and friends when we can and spend at least 1 major holiday with her family each year. Help her around the house with chores to pick up the slack when I am home.
Cali, it looks like you're starting to get through to your W, but don't rush back into pursuit mode. Let her do the initiating now. If she wants to make this work, let her show you that. Like you said, the ball's in her court.
No worries here, I'm not in major pursuit made at all. I'm in Hawaii what better place to relax! haha! I didn't text her at all today and low and she texted me instead, so I'm letting her initiate. That being said at this point I think that I probably should show some sort of interest and my own initiation of communication too. I'm not talking about anything crazy, but maybe a good morning would be in order.
About you not sending your letter - I had this elaborate letter/poem/story I'd planned to send my W, and I decided to hold off. Looking back I'm really glad I didn't send it. It was too emotional and there was too much pressure. You might feel different about about not sending your letter after you've had some time to process things.
My letter that I wrote is on here and it's basically written from recommendations from others on here. In other words, if I were to write a letter just on my own without the suggestions from people on here it probably would be different. Not emotional or mushy at all, but pretty straight forward and matter of fact. I wouldn't put it past me to put some things in there that would call her out on her bad behavior too. Anyway no sweat here I don't even care about the letter, although my wife said she wrote me something that started out as a text and then she didn't want to lose it so she typed it out. I haven't seen it yet, but I am curious as to what it says, but not sure I should ask her for it.
Your trip to see your W may not have really made much difference in the end, but I respect that you did what you felt you needed to do. I think we can all agree that she did sit up and notice when she felt like she was really losing you.
I personally think my trip was a good thing and it sparked something, because it showed I cared more than just telling her I cared, which is the exact opposite of what I was doing, but it is only my opinion. If I can think of it and when things, or if things, settled down between us I would love to ask my wife what were the things that mattered to her and made the difference. Then I could share it here. Heck even if things don't workout between us I would still like to know the answers to it. It's a matter of fact that I had been wanting to just talk about things like this with my with for awhile.
First of all your an awesome lady and I just want to say thank you for all you have communicated with me on here.
Originally Posted By: 25yearsmlc
Originally Posted By: Cali08
Further more she talked about future things with me. About jobs I should look for and how good I am at coaching and that I should make it a full time job. It' was by far the most normal conversation I have had with her in months since this thing started.
Flying out to Virginia either helped you a lot or was a neutral. I feel it was the former and not the latter.
I agree I think the flight to Virginia was a turning point, but after talking to my wife it would appear that she wa also thinking of coming out to see me. Still a very confusing thing to me that I got the divorce papers laying on my kitchen counter. I have thought of possible flying her out to Hawaii with for a weekend, but it's just a thought. If she truly wants to see me then it could be arranged.
IMO, The job advice she is giving or probing with, means you moving. Not arguing about why you should stay, and the house, and the lost opportunities, and proximity to your family, etc...
She actually discussed specifically about jobs in and around my home town, so I'm still leaning towards Cali truly not being the real problem.
You have made many promises about insights and things you have learned...things you regret doing/not doing.
Please use any opportunity you may have to salvage your m, to make changes in your trajectory. To keep those promises.
In other words, change how you treat & view your w, or neither one of you will be happy, for long.
I totally agree! I already have changed how I wold treat my wife because I can feel it. It's is literally a part of my thought process of I want to treat her and how she needs it too.
Communication -oh my dear Cali, I do not think the written word is really your strength when it relates to emotions/relationships.
So when you communicate with your w, do it in person or on the phone, maybe emphasize the listening without the need to coach your w. It would be an easy trap to fall in
and before you deny ever doing that, STOP.... no one is accusing you. It's just advice. And FTR, I'm a L and know for a fact that in the start of my m I often gave oral arguments that I felt were organized and thought out and would inevitably lead to the conclusion I had come to so brilliantly.
In court, I won a lot. Not so much in my marital discussions. Some areas do not overlap as well as we'd like. Period.
Haha! I wasn't going to deny doing it honestly!! I wasn't even taking it as you calling me out on it, but as advice from a wise woman. I think coaching my wife wasn't even the issue, but treating her like a kid in some respects would be the more likely thing. It's just a fact that I am more experienced in some life things than my wife, after all I do have 10 years on her and when she wouldn't know things I thought she absolutely should know I would point it out. I wasn't meaning to be that way towards her or at least I wasn't thinking of her as a child, but she definitely took it that way.
I would advise against another letter to her. No. She reacted positively (though belatedly) to your in person visit. That's clear.
I'm confused here because I have never sent her a letter in the first place. I have only talked about it and tried to write acceptable versions of letters and posted them up here.
I know you say you will treat her differently, but I strongly fear that if she comes back, you'll see it as some sort of validation of the past choices you made (& that nothing of significance will be altered, over time).
In contrast, I think it would be a wonderful second chance for you - to use a precious gift wisely, and lovingly.
Make sense?
It makes perfect sense and I really am a man of my word. When I mean it I really do mean it. I know I want to treat my wife differently than before and I know that I don't want to go back to what happened to us before. For one I realize that her actions effect mine and mine hers and it becomes a vicious cycle, which can be nipped in the bud with proper insight and communication.
PS
I read your whole thread from the beginning. While It's true that I read many threads around here, I still could not recall you writing a specific thing about your racial differences, or why her parents/family would not support the m or have a good r with you. I have not re-read your whole thread to search & find those. I don't want to, but I feel like I'd remember them if they were not vague or cryptic.
I did mention it a few times, some time less direct than others because at first I felt odd calling attention to it. It's such a strong subject now a days I didn't want anyone to become offended by it. I will see if I can find it the very last time I mentioned it and I will copy and paste it here.
And I still find your references opaque or forcing a lot of work from the reader. That's why I found your previous draft so unproductive.
I believe this stems from a bit of laziness on my part too. I am a lot of the times, as I am now, typing this after a long day of work and I am trying to just get it out as fast as possible so I can read the advice later. I know I can be better if I took my time to be.
But no matter. Just wanted you to know I did read your whole thread, parts of it more than once.
