Limerence and My Situation

[sandi2]

Hi Parkema, I found your thread today and found you to be interesting. I wish I could say I found the situation to be extraordinary, but sadly, this forum is filled with similar stories. Btw, I feel honored that you read some of my posts. Ten years ago I stumbled into the DB board, and had no clue how to find my way around the community, b/c I had never even looked at forum. Perhaps that was a picture, of sorts, of my life at that time. I had certainly lost my way, and needed help in getting back where I belonged.

I have become familiar with the wayward wife, both by personal experience and from gaining insight from others. I believe we learn from each other, and that is why this board is successful in their support for one another.

I agree with a lot of your statements about limerence. One of the most informative advice I received was about PEAS. The scientific study in how affairs affect the brain, and how it works similar to other addictions. In fact, I have to give a lot of credit to that information as being a big part of me successfully ending my own affair.

Anyway, enough about me........I really wanted to offer some suggestions on your situation with your WW. As wonderful a man as you sound, and even adding improvements.......there are certain things that attract the WW that might seem very counterintuitive to her H. Since logic seems lost on the wayward, they usually have to learn through live pictures, or experience the hard way. I hope we can recommend a few to you.

Strangely enough, the WW sees herself as dumping the H for a better option that fills her emotional needs. Btw, she operates almost completely on her feelings at the moment, thus adding more frustration to the logically minded H. I say that as a warning, b/c some of my advice could sound illogical to you. So.......back to the idea of her dumping the H for another guy, the truth is.......she doesn't fully believe he can be happy without her. She doesn't believe he will ever love any other woman the way he loves her. In fact, she secretly wants him to pine away for her, as he sees her living happily ever after with the OM. At the very least, she wants him to remain available......just in case things don't work out with Mr. Wonderful (OM).

If I had seen my H moving forward and being happy without me.....and especially if it involved the possibilty that I could be replaced.........I believe it would have jerked my head around so fast that I would have forgoten all about the OM, and whatever fantasy I had attached. And, I have discovered, it wasn't just my opinion.......but it's true in most WW cases. The WW mindset is crazy........and she wants what she believes she can't have....or what she is losing.

Currently, your W is not concerned (at least enough) about losing your availability. And, why should she be worried, when you have been so.......well, available? What can you do to change that picture? I would start with not being so available for her daily visitations. You don't have to tag along on the times she wants to see the boys, do you? In fact, getting all guy-dolled and acting as if you have plans to go out while she's with the kids.......would add some mystery. I never advise anyone to lie about anything. However, she has removed herself from rightly deserving to know the details of you GAL, right? Now you may not go anywhere but to the library, the movies, or to walk around the mall........but she doesn't get all those little details......although she will be curious as to where you went, what you did, and most importantly....who was there with you! Am I suggesting you intentionally try to make her jealous? No! I'm saying to let her think whatever. It's not your job to explain anything. She has lost her " Wife's Right to Know" license.

I think it's important that she sees another living picture. When separated, she doesn't get to go by your house for a daily visit. Yes, I know it is hard when she doesn't get to see her children every day, however, she needs to put her big girl panties on, b/c this is part of the separation/divorce package. It's called The Real Life of Divorced Families. Don't you think she should see a glimpse of that future picture (should she continue this affair)? For now, we can ponder on how to deal with it without you having to just come out and tell her she can't visit every day. Does she call in advance? How long does she usually stay?

What about text messaging or phone conversation? You know, this is a source for her keeping ties on your life. It is also a way of using you to satisfy her need to check on the boys, or fill her time when OM isn't available, etc. What can you do to slow down this availability?

Does she make a habit of coming by, or calling, about the same time.........or do you never know what time of day/night she may decide to drop by or call to talk to the boys? In other words, does she want to come by around bedtime so she can tuck them into bed, or call to say goodnight? Observe the times and see if there is a pattern.

At this point, I can almost sense your resistance. I want to say something that I often have difficulty communicating in a tender manner. I do not mean this to sound harsh, b/c my heart empathizes with your situation. I understand how willing and how much you want your kids to see their mother every chance possible. I understand how you don't wish to deny your W seeing her children. Not doing so may seem punitive to you. I don't pretend to believe it would be a pleasure in preventing it. With that said, let me add this part. Often times, the children are the excuse for the parents to see each other. They are the excuse used when the parents contact one another to "check and see how the kids are doing". They are the excuse for responding immediately to every text message, etc. They may not see it in themselves, but I see this all the time. Not only does the wayward wife use it, but so does the betrayed H. It is difficult to break those emotional crutches, so they tell themselves, as well as us, that they need to check on the kids. That they only have conversations regarding the kids. For now, I only want you to observe her words to see how much are really about or to the kids.....and how much are between the two of you.... and, visa versa. Anyway, I just wanted to suggest that you notice it, okay?

I hope you stick with posting often.

[AnotherStander]

1. a plan of action designed to achieve a long-term or overall aim.
synonyms: master plan, grand design, game plan, plan of action, plan, policy, proposed action, scheme, blueprint, programme, procedure, approach, schedule; More
tactics, set of tactics

See all of that ^^^ is exactly what NOT to do. All of that implies this is simply something you are doing to get her back. And that's how she will see it. And if she sees it as "plan of action", "game plan", "tactics" etc. (which she will) then it will NEVER work. Don't talk "strategy", talk "goals". And your primary goal should be to take all of your W's criticism and use that to make permanent changes and become the best YOU that YOU can be, whether that means a life with or without your W. And I think you already are, but the difference is if it's a "strategy" it's temporary, but if it's a "goal" then it's permanent. See what I'm saying? If you're going to keep using that word which of course you are welcome to, I hope you will at least try and change your mindset a bit to being more goal-oriented.

and you will see I am GAL and trying my best to DR, working on myself is ALL I can do as I'm the only one I can control.

Quite right, and all of that is great! But THIS doesn't fit with that goal:

My entire post is about limerence and you will see I understand it can last anywhere between 3-36 months I'm aware it could be a long haul but what else can I do?

Please understand that limerence has no kind of guarantee attached to it, and it is not your goal to simply "outlast limerence" which I get the impression is what you are trying to do. I can practically see you marking off the days on a calendar! When you and your W started dating you were both in limerence. At some point it wore off and what happened then, did you break up? No, it was replaced with a more enduring type of love that laid the foundations for marriage. When limerence wears off it does NOT mean the relationship ends. You are not simply trying to persevere until her limerence wears off, because when it does you really don't know what will happen. All you can do is work on yourself, again become the best you possible. Become the better choice than OM. She was attracted to you before, what was it that she was attracted to? What characteristics? What can you do to get back to that? Those are the questions to ponder rather than "how long will this last."

I'm not saying not to have hope, but if your hope is in simply outlasting limerence then I'm afraid you may get complacent about becoming a better you! And that is the REAL goal of DB'ing. Fix yourself and the M may follow.

[Parkema]

Morning sandi2,

I'm glad you responded as you are in a unique position to give advise having been on both sides and I thank you.

Your post is quite long and I'll endeavour to outline where my situation is which I hope will clear up some of the questions you put towards me in a minute.

As you know my original thread was about limerence and I find it interesting that once you gained an understanding of it's behaviours you began to get your life back into some kind of order. Can I ask a few questions..?

1.How long did it take you to realise?
2.Did your H do anything in aiding it's escalation?
3.Was the AP/LO the reason you came out of limerence?
4.What made you look into it?

I'm not about to teach people to "suck eggs" here as most of what I'm about to say is well known in these forums but this is a personal thread about me and my experiences so far and I just want to share.
I ask Q.2 mainly because I hope he was working to make himself better for himself by working on the things he possibly fell down on when you two were together, I hope he started to demonstrate a better person to you and this in some way aided your decision. Did you go back to him? Did the AP/LO return to his W&F? Was this all guilt based? I'm sorry to ask so many questions as I feel you are wanting me to answer a few to better help me in my progress.

Please all understand I know this can be a long process with no guarantee's of success especially without action BUT I'm all about action that's why I'm here...

Sandi you can have a massive impact on helping those on these boards and I know you already have been, so I'm sorry you're now my guru
I get posts back from members who would suggest that limerence cannot be relied upon to end, I FEEL they don't believe in the process. For those people I ask you this. Why are you here? Limerence in basic terms has 3-stages:
1. Infatuation - nothing in the entire world can feel better than how I feel about my LO.
2. Crystilisation - the don't get in our way or else stage and a more bonding time for both.
3. Detireation - When the cracks start to appear, are you actually better than my H and our LTR?

I personally am willing to allow (I say allow I can't control her anyway) my WW to reach stage 3 but whilst I do that I'm working on myself and getting better and better each day. There may come a time where I no longer want my W back who knows BUT I'm all about my family and will not allow anybody to say to me I didn't do all I could to rectify the issues my W and I had to keep all of us together. I don't want to regret not trying everything and D as this would eat me up inside and wreck all of our lives even though WW doesn't think it in her present state...

My strategies are founded on these facts about limerence.

Coming back to my situation, I feel it might be best to outline a typical day we experience and see whether your views change.
I HAVE THE BOYS AT MY HOME.
1. They wake up and get ready for school. Have breakfast and sit down until carer takes them.
2. WW FaceTimes the boys on their iPad to say morning, this is done in their bedroom no contact with me at all.
3. I walk to work.
4. I arrive home from work and carer is busy doing homework or whatever with S10 & S7.
5. Carer leaves and I start to make dinner for us three.
6. WW arrives at my home where I stay civil and ask if she's okay and then remove myself to another part of the house or go into the garden and potter around.
7. WW initiates a conversation with me about our next visitation, when and where. All very business-like.
8. 15 minutes after she arrives she's gone again.

Throughout the day I make no contact whatsoever with the WW unless it's an emergency (thank god not happened yet).

SHE HAS THE BOYS AT THE FAMILY HOME.
1. I wake up do my work-out shower have breakfast and then FaceTime the boys on their iPads. No conversation with WW.
2. I walk to work.
Throughout the day I make no contact whatsoever with the WW unless it's an emergency (thank god not happened yet).
3. I walk home from work and greet the boys at my home due to the WW finishing later (a whole hour later than she's supposed to) and allow the carer to leave. This financially beneficial.
4. I prepare the boys items Burgan and school shoes uniform in readiness for the WW to arrive.
5. WW arrives and picks up the boys, again I detach myself as best I can and they return back to TFH.
6. Around bedtime I FaceTime the boys again to wish them a goodnight.
If a conversation was to happen it takes place when I'm waving goodbye to them in the car. Again all over within 15 minutes.

As you can see we interact for a maximum of an hour and a half a week maybe a little more if birthdays are involved of some sort of school event a party say but then possibly a further half an hour tops a week.
I NEVER initiate any contact at all throughout this period except to answer the door and be civil (English don't you know).

What am I doing to aid the limerence process...

Setting some not very strong boundaries, LC no texts, emails or calls at all just the face-to-face above.
No pursuing her at all in fact she pursues me on occasions.
Working on my attractiveness - P.I.E.S.
Showing her that I am a good rounded confident happy person who she can feel safe around when she needs some place to share her issues. Not happened yet but I feel she knows she can come to me if she needs to talk about anything (I will not talk about the A or our R).
GALing I am getting out much more often now and this is beginning to have an effect. I feel she is making this into a competition - you go out I go out, so what. An example this Thursday I am going to a comedy club with work colleagues and need to be left my home by 18:00. I will be suited and booted and looking my best and leaving at the same time my WW will be picking up the boys! How do you think that will go down?
Being nonchalant about her o so sad little A that is ripping her life apart, friends have dropped her my boys show a little less respect especially S10.
180 - "You look happy, that's all I want is for you to be happy" and "don't worry it will all work out it always does" when I feel she is fishing or the A is beginning to have a slight affect on her. I have done this about 4 times since I separated.
DR'ing obviously.

I understand you views on showing her what it will be like if we were to D but only seeing her for a maximum of 1 and a half hours a week granted face-to-face what more can I do? I L my WW and want my marriage to be back stronger than ever I don't think that's likely to happen if I cant demonstrate to her she has messed up the best option for hers and our futures by choosing to remain in the A with her AP/LO.

There you go.

Sorry for the long post.

Take care and look after the one's you L.

Mark.

[Parkema]

Hi AnotherStander,

Thanks for your reply.

I feel the word "goals" and "plan" are part of what makes up the strategies.
"My goal is to reach that cat up a tree, my strategy is to use that ladder, I plan to do x,y and z"

I am no different in wanting to save my M it's just a word.

I don't care if she does see right through it I'm getting better each day by sticking to my strategies. By the way she is slooowly starting to notice... She is seeing someone who is GAL and investing less time in her. This is starting to make her take a little more notice but she is so far into phase 1 of linmerence it has very very little affect on her as I knew it would.

I am willing to give it time as I'm in no hurry to gain another R yet (that might never come) so win-win.

Can I ask do you believe in the limerent process?

All the best.

Mark.

[Cadet]

Please all understand I know this can be a long process with no guarantee's of success especially without action BUT I'm all about action that's why I'm here...

I will leave you with this thought.

Sometimes doing NOTHING is an ACTION.

The actions that you take must be counter intuitive.
Do not continue to do things that do not work.

I think the plan of working on yourself is a great idea.

[Parkema]

Hi Cadet

I suppose I'm quite stubborn in the fact that I stick to what I feel is working in my situation. It can obviously be better and appreciate everyone's advice. I feel I'm falling down with regards to completely breaking away from WW but again in the UK views on stopping the mother of the children seeing them is highly frowned upon.

We have to work within these guidelines!

Today she is enjoying time with them and the AP/LO as much as I don't like the situation there's very little I can do. Again this needs to happen to allow the reality of their A hit home and move the limerence phases along.

With reality the fantasy lessens and the true self comes to the fore, they may choose to stick it out and make the most of it, one might look for another LO and start the cycle again or my WW could see that her M wasn't all that bad after all.

If that is the case I need to make sure that I am in the best position to work on the R process if she wants to work on the M.

It's hard on day's like this and need everybody's support to keep me motivated and moving forward.

Regards

Mark.

[25yearsmlc]

Park

why do you insist this A is her in limerence?

The obsessive parts, the romanticizing of the other person, idealizing (OR negating them) the intense fear of rejection, the dependence, intrusive thoughts about the other person...

I may be off base here but some of what I have read on that topic suggest the LBSer can sometimes be the one in limerence.

Not all affairs fit this^^ situation as well.

If your m was actually a good solid one and this still happened, I would have lower expectations of a recon.

It means there is a problem in your w and not you or the dynamic between you two.

IF IF it really was solid and you're not just idealizing what you had,

then what is it that YOU can do to repair or restore this? (IMO the best news a counselor can give you is that you have issues b/c that means you are not powerless).

Also, I suggest you watch the TED talk video on infidelity by Esther Perel. She's pretty much the guru on why affairs happen

and which marriages are more likely to be salvageable after.

((( )))

[sjohns6]

I have not commented on anyone else's posts yet as I feel my situation is still too fresh for me to offer advice to anyone, but I felt compelled to comment to you, park.

Our situations are different (well, we both have WW I guess), but I find I feel similarly to you in how I look at the situation. I feel like this the info and suggestions provided on this site suggest that dealing with MLC and WAS/WW is not intuitive and dealing with it in a normal fashion doesn't work. I understand that you have to make yourself better and not pursue etc, and that is better for you but might also help get your spouse back depending on the situation. I also understand about having zero expectations and how that can help you. I also feel like because these actions aren't what come natural, that means they are done with a goal in mind. I feel like I am here because my marriage is broken due to WW and I want support to get through it and advice on what I can do (behavior wise) that will increase my chances of reconciliation. To me, this is manipulative behavior because it isn't a natural reaction and it has goal(s) in mind while implementing.

Having said that, I also am finding support in the responses you are getting from others as it is helping me realize some of the error in that thought process. While I won't agree that my assessment is incorrect, I do realize the wisdom in the advice you have been given and that I might need to try and rethink how I might alter my own thought process to make things easier on myself to get through this.

I really don't think I am romanticizing my relationship with W (previous to BD) in saying that it was actually really good. With 2 preteen/teen children we surely could have spent more time on our personal relationship outside of the family dynamic (as I am sure we all could at that stage), we did still do things together and were happy. Because of that I really took pause at what 25years was saying above regarding a solid relationship but this still happened. I think I'm going to go watch that tedtalk video.

Just wanted to stop by and say that I support you and hope all is as well as possible. I don't know if we are right in how we look at things, but we are of a similar mindset. I'm going to keep watching your thread looking for advice.

[Cadet]

I have not commented on anyone else's posts yet as I feel my situation is still too fresh for me to offer advice to anyone, but I felt compelled to comment to you, park.

sjohns6 - I put this here to validate what you are doing.

How to get more people to POST on my thread?

To get more replies my suggestion is to ask questions.
Put you post down in a readable fashion. (not one big block of type- ie hit carriage return frequently).
KISS = Keep it simple stupid
Post on other peoples threads and give them support.
You may not think you are qualified but you will be surprised that you may know something
or have some knowledge of something that others know nothing about.
Personally thank each poster that does post on your thread or ask them a follow up question.

Keep posting! - (Most important part)

[sjohns6]

Thanks Cadet. Will do.

I think you are right...sometimes its easier to see what might help others than yourself, and it is nice to get advice on your post from others.

I'll try and start offering more support to others outside of just thinking it in my head. Support feels good and its a 2 way street!!