Boston Dad in need of Help

[Teppo]

Also,

Are there any good threads on emotional affairs and how to recognize and deal with them? I strongly believe my wife is having one. Should I treat this as I would a physical affair?

Thanks

[Cadet]

Are there any good threads on emotional affairs and how to recognize and deal with them? I strongly believe my wife is having one.
Should I treat this as I would a physical affair?

YES

It could be a fantasy affair too.
One made up only in her head.

Not much you can do about it except to detach, LET GO and
let her be responsible for her own actions.

[Teppo]

So, we met with our Deacon today and it went as I predicted. She had two typed pages of her grievances that she read off to me. I'm guilty of several things that she mentioned such as my moodiness, anger, irrational worrying, not being nice to her mom. I told her that I acknowledge her hurt and that I'm sorry for the things I've done. But some of her complaints were very petty such as beeping my car in traffic, breaking her laptop (I think I pounded the keyboard in frustration), breaking a dish (an accident), and knocking over a lamp (I don't quite remember this one). Mind you, these events occurred over a 10 year period in which there were many good times. Nonetheless, I wasn't allowed to rebut her points. During all this she made statements such as "I'm done" and "I'm not giving you any hope".

We're going to meet again with our Deacon, who still seems hopeful, but it seems all but over now. In the meantime she continues to see her emotional affair partner. Is this when I detach?

[Accuray]

Hi Teppo,

Sorry things seemed to have turned for the worse for you. When people get into emotional affairs, it's a very stark mixed bag of feelings. For one, getting loads of positive attention from a member of the opposite sex is intoxicating, it's really like a drug. Then, there's the accompanying feeling of guilt knowing that they are doing something wrong.

Rather than get angry at themselves, they think "why am I feeling guilty? It's because of HIM, HE'S making me feel guilty"

Then, you become the bad guy, and they look to reinforce their argument that "you are making them do this" by searching for any negative things that you do, re-writing your history so it was always bad, etc. etc. etc.

It's a very predictable and repeatable pattern unfortunately, and the things your wife is saying and how she is acting are no different.

The prescription is really the same as my first post -- the guilt she feels over her EA is yet another reason she resents you, so anything you do to guilt her, shame her, or make her responsible for your sadness is going to increase her guilt and therefore increase her resentment.

Your best bet is to go the opposite direction and give her more space than she wants. The DB prescription is (1) 180: whatever she assumes she knows about you, demonstrate that it's not true. If you used to get angry and honk in traffic, don't do that even in the worst scenario, etc. (2) Get a Life: go out and do things with other people and enjoy your life, establish new relationships, (3) Act as If: Act as if everything is 100% awesome in your life.

There is NOTHING you can do about her affair partner or what she's going to do next. You can only control what you're going to do next.

People often fear that if they go in the other direction, are they telling their partner they don't care, or giving their tacit approval for the affair to continue, or how will they demonstrate that they're different if the other person doesn't see them, etc. etc.

The answer to all of that is "NO" -- the answer is to give space, not pursue, and all it means is that you're giving space. There's nothing else to read into it.

If you look back to my first post it's all about discipline now, do you have the discipline to back off and give her space?

Acc

[Teppo]

More words of wisdom from Acc, thanks!

However, it's inconceivable to me that she feels guilty at all. When we met with a counselor and more recently with our Deacon, she exuded confidence and a bitchy air about her. Do think it's an act to cover up her true mixed feelings? Her texts to her EA partner never mention our son and the impact that a divorce will have on him.

I'm rambling now, but she even got a flat tire on the interstate today and didn't call or let me know what happen until I asked her how her day was. Meanwhile at the time of the flat, she immediately texted her EA partner and he was giving her advice! She effectively has a new husband! The hurt of knowing this is so tough to bear. Is it prudent to keep looking at her texts to keep track of the times they physically meet for legal reasons? I want to prove the EA to my lawyer and see if it can be used to help me gain primary custody. Finally, I read on another thread that I should go back to the MBR. Is that accurate for an EA?

[AnotherStander]

Hi Teppo! First of all, Accuray is offering up a lot of pure gold, I love it! (PS- hello Acc, how have you been?! )

However, it's inconceivable to me that she feels guilty at all.

That's because what she's showing you on the OUTSIDE is someone resolute, sure, confident that it's over. But what's INSIDE is a raging storm of confusion and indecision. She feels TREMENDOUS guilt, but she will never let you know that.

When we met with a counselor and more recently with our Deacon, she exuded confidence and a bitchy air about her. Do think it's an act to cover up her true mixed feelings?

She's trying really hard to convince herself that she's doing the right thing. I remember someone saying that about my W and I was like "ha! You haven't seen my W, I've never seen her so confident about anything." Months later W herself told me she had never been so confused in her life and whenever no one was around she was crying her eyes out. This is our biggest shortcoming as the LBS, we're so caught up in our own grief that we play the victim and see our WAS as the aggressor when in fact they are as much a victim as us if not more so (because their suffering has been going on a lot longer than ours).

Her texts to her EA partner never mention our son and the impact that a divorce will have on him.

She wants her EA to by all romantic and fields of daisies, she's unlikely to bring up stuff like that.

I'm rambling now, but she even got a flat tire on the interstate today and didn't call or let me know what happen until I asked her how her day was.

Normal. She doesn't want your help right now. I snooped early on and saw a message my W sent to her friend that said her worst nightmare was getting sick and imagining me having to take care of her. Wow did that hurt. Me taking care of her was her WORST NIGHTMARE. That's how your W feels right now. She's rather ask a stranger to change her tire than call you.

Is it prudent to keep looking at her texts to keep track of the times they physically meet for legal reasons? I want to prove the EA to my lawyer and see if it can be used to help me gain primary custody.

Normally we say don't snoop, but you should discuss that with your L. If you're in a no fault state like TX then it's probably a waste of time, but your L would know better than us.

Finally, I read on another thread that I should go back to the MBR. Is that accurate for an EA?

You never should have left. Once you're out it can cause a lot of stress trying to force yourself back in though. Do you have a DB coach? That would be a good question for them.

I'll also add that it sounds like you, like most of us did, are getting very caught up in your W's words. Her words represent how she feels RIGHT NOW. That can change in a year, a month, a week or even 5 minutes. Do you know Sandi's rules by heart yet? "Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared."

[Teppo]

Hi Teppo! First of all, Accuray is offering up a lot of pure gold, I love it! (PS- hello Acc, how have you been?! )

However, it's inconceivable to me that she feels guilty at all.

That's because what she's showing you on the OUTSIDE is someone resolute, sure, confident that it's over. But what's INSIDE is a raging storm of confusion and indecision. She feels TREMENDOUS guilt, but she will never let you know that.

When we met with a counselor and more recently with our Deacon, she exuded confidence and a bitchy air about her. Do think it's an act to cover up her true mixed feelings?

She's trying really hard to convince herself that she's doing the right thing. I remember someone saying that about my W and I was like "ha! You haven't seen my W, I've never seen her so confident about anything." Months later W herself told me she had never been so confused in her life and whenever no one was around she was crying her eyes out. This is our biggest shortcoming as the LBS, we're so caught up in our own grief that we play the victim and see our WAS as the aggressor when in fact they are as much a victim as us if not more so (because their suffering has been going on a lot longer than ours).

Her texts to her EA partner never mention our son and the impact that a divorce will have on him.

She wants her EA to by all romantic and fields of daisies, she's unlikely to bring up stuff like that.

I'm rambling now, but she even got a flat tire on the interstate today and didn't call or let me know what happen until I asked her how her day was.

Normal. She doesn't want your help right now. I snooped early on and saw a message my W sent to her friend that said her worst nightmare was getting sick and imagining me having to take care of her. Wow did that hurt. Me taking care of her was her WORST NIGHTMARE. That's how your W feels right now. She's rather ask a stranger to change her tire than call you.

Is it prudent to keep looking at her texts to keep track of the times they physically meet for legal reasons? I want to prove the EA to my lawyer and see if it can be used to help me gain primary custody.

Normally we say don't snoop, but you should discuss that with your L. If you're in a no fault state like TX then it's probably a waste of time, but your L would know better than us.

Finally, I read on another thread that I should go back to the MBR. Is that accurate for an EA?

You never should have left. Once you're out it can cause a lot of stress trying to force yourself back in though. Do you have a DB coach? That would be a good question for them.

I'll also add that it sounds like you, like most of us did, are getting very caught up in your W's words. Her words represent how she feels RIGHT NOW. That can change in a year, a month, a week or even 5 minutes. Do you know Sandi's rules by heart yet? "Do not believe any of what you hear and less than 50% of what you see. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared."

AnotherStander,

Thanks for your response and insight. I'm always eager to hear what people have to say about my situation.

Per the advice of several members of the this board, I've been practicing detachment. However, I did slip up on Sunday, if that's what it is, when I again apologized to her at church for acknowledging my short comings and hurting her. That will be the last time I apologize.

With respect to her EA, I've taken Acc's advice to heart and have resigned myself to the fact that I can't do a damn thing about it. Only once did I confront her about her EA and that was over a month ago right after Easter. I haven't brought it up since. It's so hard to not reach out and give the woman I love a hug and say "I love you". I know that will only drive up her resentment toward me, which is a tragic shame.

A question for the experts out there: In our final meeting with our Deacon, should I read to her a letter that acknowledges some of her complaints and to touch upon the good times we shared. I want to express to her how I feel and how her EA has accelerated the downfall of our marriage. I feel that this will be the only time I'll ever have again to tell her these things. Since she's made up her mind on getting a divorce I figure I've got nothing to lose by doing this. Thoughts?

[AnotherStander]

However, I did slip up on Sunday, if that's what it is, when I again apologized to her at church for acknowledging my short comings and hurting her. That will be the last time I apologize.

Sounds pretty minor as far as backslides go.

In our final meeting with our Deacon, should I read to her a letter that acknowledges some of her complaints and to touch upon the good times we shared.

From Sandi's rules (#3):

"Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc."

I think you now fully understand these deacon meetings are not doing any good. Personally I wouldn't write a letter at all, but would just go in, look her straight in the eye and tell her you appreciate her sharing her thoughts with you, that it helps you to better understand what her feelings are and that while you may not agree on every point you acknowledge how she feels and will respect that.

I want to express to her how I feel and how her EA has accelerated the downfall of our marriage.

It actually didn't. EA's are a symptom, not a cause. Believe me, I understand. We all want to find that "smoking gun" that caused our marriage to fall apart. But there isn't one, it happened over a long period of time and for a number of reasons. Once we accept that WE are the reason it failed then we can start the process of rebuilding ourselves and maybe start a new relationship with our spouse.

[Accuray]

PS- hello Acc, how have you been?!

Hello AnotherStander! I've been good -- in a new relationship for over two years now, loving life!

Teppo I'm just going to reinforce what you've said and what AnotherStander has said, there's nothing you can do about the EA. Reading and tracking her text messages is the equivalent of punching yourself in the face which you will eventually figure out. Best not to look, and to enforce that by cutting off whatever access you have.

I'm also in Boston, and I can tell you that in MA it doesn't matter at all. She could have sex on your kitchen table in front of the town and you could be perfectly faithful and it wouldn't make any difference at all in a divorce.

A divorce in MA consists of a child custody agreement and a financial settlement. The only thing that would impact the custody agreement would be if one parent could be proven to be unfit, and infidelity doesn't count. The financial settlement consists of alimony, child support, and division of your assets. Every lawyer I spoke to said that everyone ends up in the same place on asset division, which is about 50/50, and the only difference is how much money you spend fighting over it. Alimony is based on your income differential, the only think you need to know is that for marriages under 20 years alimony is for 80% of the duration of the marriage, and for over 20 years its for life, so if you're getting near the 20 year mark it can be a critical decision point.

If it comes to working through any of that I'm happy to share more details, but my only point in sharing it now is to tell you that there is no benefit to keeping track of what your wife is doing because it doesn't matter. The only thing that would matter is if she's doing things that would pose a danger to the children, like getting drunk or taking drugs and driving them around, or leaving them unattended overnight, etc.

My wife had a few EA's so I know exactly how devastating it is. She absolutely feels horribly guilty and she blames you for that, because what she really WANTS to do is enjoy her EA guilt-free.

For that reason, there is zero chance that she'll be able to hear you if you write her a letter or pour out your feelings to her. She'll just feel that you're making her responsible for your happiness and she won't like it at all.

There was a great quote I used to post here but it's been so long I can't find it. The gist of it was this -- your wife thinks she knows you 100%. She knows how you dress, how you think, what you like, what you don't like, how you will react to things etc. It's like you're playing a game of poker with her and you are showing her all of your cards, and she's not showing you any of hers.

Time to stop showing your cards. Time to make her guess what you're thinking and what you're going to do. Time to change things up to make her wonder if she knows you as well as she thinks. The best thing you can do right now is make her wonder.

People in affairs have a nice situation -- they're getting all of this excitement from their affair partner, but they also have a nice safety net with their left-behind-spouse who is longing away for them.

Time to pull out the net. Lean into this -- GIVE HER MORE SPACE THAN SHE IS ASKING FOR. Do not, under any circumstance, tell her how you feel or what you want.

Do you have the self-control to pull that off?

There was a person I referred to this board that I met through a friend, so I got to see him both online and in real life. His situation was similar to yours. He kept insisting that if he gave his wife space, he was giving her permission to leave the marriage, and if only she know how he felt she would surely reconsider, so he kept convincing himself that writing her heartfelt letters was okay.

So he would send her the letter and it would have no effect other than pushing her farther away, so then he would conclude that he just didn't do a good enough job expressing himself, so he needed to send one more letter, etc. etc. and he ended up "one more lettering" himself into a no-return situation.

I promise you, your wife knows how you feel. There is no need to tell her again. Instead, the very best thing you can do for your situation is to change things up and go the other way.

Regarding the MBR, I would tell your wife "I understand that you're involved with another man, and that you'd like a divorce. I'm not okay with being in an open marriage. Since you're the one that wants to leave, I'd like you to move out of the MBR and I plan to return to it beginning tonight."

How do you think that might change things?

If you do that, you're clearly not pursuing, begging or pleading right?

Acc

[Teppo]

PS- hello Acc, how have you been?!

Hello AnotherStander! I've been good -- in a new relationship for over two years now, loving life!

For that reason, there is zero chance that she'll be able to hear you if you write her a letter or pour out your feelings to her. She'll just feel that you're making her responsible for your happiness and she won't like it at all.

There was a great quote I used to post here but it's been so long I can't find it. The gist of it was this -- your wife thinks she knows you 100%. She knows how you dress, how you think, what you like, what you don't like, how you will react to things etc. It's like you're playing a game of poker with her and you are showing her all of your cards, and she's not showing you any of hers.

Time to stop showing your cards. Time to make her guess what you're thinking and what you're going to do. Time to change things up to make her wonder if she knows you as well as she thinks. The best thing you can do right now is make her wonder.

People in affairs have a nice situation -- they're getting all of this excitement from their affair partner, but they also have a nice safety net with their left-behind-spouse who is longing away for them.

Time to pull out the net. Lean into this -- GIVE HER MORE SPACE THAN SHE IS ASKING FOR. Do not, under any circumstance, tell her how you feel or what you want.
Acc

Thanks for the response, Acc.
The point of my letter is to read it to her at our last meeting. I figure if our marriage is truly over, this will be the last time that I would have her attention and opportunity to tell her how I feel about our marriage, her EA, and the affect a divorce will have on our son. Let's just say I have a lot to "get off my chest" because I haven't had the opportunity to do so. I feel that if I don't tell her how I feel about everything that I'll regret not saying anything. With this in mind, do you still think it's a bad idea to read the letter to her?

Thanks