Advice appreciated

[Tobias]

Wow. sandi2 what a thoughtful and kind response. I was afraid what it was you would say. But you hit a lot of it on the head.

I am hesitant in responding b/c of what you have said about her depression and thoughts of suicide. I do not agree that the current situation is all your fault. Neither is every little bump in daily interactions are caused from you not saying or doing just the right thing.

Thanks.

From reading your thread, it pictures a man who is blaming himself for the past and striving to make improvements. He has a younger W who is in a PA with OM, and listens to her talk about the OM. He seems so disparate to be in his W's life that he is willing to share her with another man. IMHO, that is a formula for a very unhealthy MR.

Yes. Honestly, I think if we are in a good situation and she has those urges and needs I can discuss that. I was hoping that by not forcing her NC she would recognize it was challenging to me and not pursue OM. But detaching and GAL seem so risky especially when there is someone else that delivers some of what she needs (emotional support, sex - last time two or three weeks ago with him). Like, I know I need to stop pursuing her but it just nags at me because that is exactly what I have been doing all these years. And then when she does want to hang out I now constantly wonder is she doing this just to get me off her back and then she can go back to OM. That is an unhealthy thought and I cannot control HER actions but it makes leaving the house seem like a risky choice. Especially when one text message showed when I was getting her food she was just chatting away with him and that was a day before I found out what was happening.

If your W is showing erratic behavior and mentions suicide, she should be under the care of a doctor/therapy. Does she show erratic behavior only when she is responding to something you've said or done? Does she show erratic behavior with others, at work, etc? What about her family? Are they close and involved in her life?

No. But I have told her before that I feel she is a different person around me. She is very pleasant and extrovert around others but this exhausts her and so I always feel I only got her bad elements. This led to fights and of course she wanted to be vulnerable around me. I didn't get that. So instead of comforting her and LISTENING I tried to fix things and I distanced myself. She pursued me but I was defensive. And then when she got defensive I started pursuing her. Then she distanced herself...repeat cycle.

this article was helpful for me: https://www.elephantjournal.com/2014/08/a-married-mans-secret-tears-grace-cooley-steve-horsmon/

Going back to your specific question: her erratic behavior comes from when she tried to balance me and OM. I mean leaving late at night before I found out and then after I found out realizing she didn't create the right boundaries. Knowing I love her, knowing she wants to fall back in love with me but doesn't know how. (and of course there is an evil voice in my head saying...don't believe anything she says). So no, she is not that way around everyone else AFAIK. But I can see pain and struggle in her eyes and face. So I think it's genuine. And she has felt miserable for so long and kept trying and I made mistakes. Hence why I blame myself so much. But yes her pain and anger and sadness and depression come when I deviate from just laughing with her and having fun.

I'm not sure if you are a meek and gentle man who compromises his boundaries.........or if you have a mistaken concept about DBing. Your W spends time with you on certain days and time with the OM on certain days. It's almost like a visitation schedule between you and the OM. Do you believe your W will be genuinely attracted to a H who is willing to share her with another man b/c he fears losing her? That must be a killer on your dignity.

It is. But I also understand polyamory and I also understand needing to feel not controlled. Even though I didn't try to control her I can see I did. But just to clarify she has maybe seen him five times in total and they had sex twice. I know that's true since the messages indicate when I was gone they only met once and since she doesn't drive and we work at the same place that she doesn't see him a lot. They do text a lot but he works weird hours and I did see their messages are mostly about jokes. It wasn't just sexting although it took up a greater role lately. But I haven't seen any messages since early last week.

As to being meek. I know she was sexually assaulted by an earlier BF. We are both passionate about sexual assault as a problem. I have always felt scared to be dominant or to talk about sex because I didn't want to be one of those men. And of course turns out she kind of wants me to be that person every now and then.

I tried to not make decisions alone but when we did things together and I didn't do something right she got angry. I got defensive and withdrew. She said she wasn't angry and I just give up. I got hurt. We fought. Repeat cycle. So yes she kind of wants a strong man who she can feel safe around. (and OM has guns and is kind of a good old boy but she does miss the ability to have good intellectual conversations and the fact his work hours make him unreliable for emotional support...but of course every text is a piece of magic I think. compared to her H who is sad and wants to be back with her. That makes her sad... etc. So I know I need to be strong and confident but I hate seeing her hurt.

Your W is bringing dispect into the sacred union of your marriage. You appear to believe the statements she makes about being with OM causes her to appreciate you more, and she's attracted to you, and how you need to be fair to him. Her values and standards and her sexually morality seems out of whack. Affairs can do that to people. It is not irreversible, if she has someone who is like a lighthouse, shining out the light from a place of stability. IMHO, you are trying to adapt to a lifestyle that is not what you really want, b/c in your heart you know she does not respect you if you share her with another man.

I have been trying to be stable and she got confused and said wait why he is changing now. But then I found out and I told two close friends and that hurt her. But ever since I have been trying to be stable while also being incredibly worried and struggling with my self esteem. I know I need to stop doing that.

I encourage you to stand by your core values. Do not compromise your integrity.
Don't confuse your aim in changing for the better.......with becoming a puppet. Sometimes when a person sees his mistakes and wants to make up for the past, he takes responsibility for all of his faults.....and the faults of his spouse. He blames himself for the inappropriate behavior of his spouse.....to the point of rationalizing her actions. In his eagerness to show his changes, he begins trying to appease and accommodate his W's demands to the extent his role becomes subservient . Is this the man you really want to become?

I know. And when I tell her she is perfect she says no I am not. I have made mistakes. I have been angry. I have lost respect for you. I have things I need to work on. I am selfish. I am an [censored].

No I don't want to become that man. But see that is the messed up thing. For years I felt I was having to do those things...but she saw everything we did as me doing what I wanted.

==

Update. So I confronted her about my fear that her texting makes it very hard for me to give her space. That I want to trust her and that I have noticed she is trying but that I am constantly worried about her just waiting to get out and is just not being genuine. I said I know I have things I need to work on but there is someone else involved and that is the challenge to me. Especially when giving you space means doing exactly what you think I have been doing all these years: ignore you and force you to find emotional support from friends.

It led to a shouting match and I told her I cannot live under the same roof and be married until you recognize how hurt this PA has made me. I will help you move out but I just cannot. It feels like you have zero regards for my feelings and care more about his feelings and how he feels about it. That knowing that this happened makes it harder for me to be strong and confident which makes it even more likely she is done with me.

After that she came over to my bedroom and said something that I wish she would have said earlier and maybe she did but it was one of those things where I may just not be listening. It is also semantics. To me wanting to save a marriage doesn't mean the only goal is that we are happily married. She only wants to see if we can save the marriage. But she doesn't want to commit to saving the marriage.

And yes, she is scared. She feels I have been emotionally abusive. I feel she has been emotionally abusive... (and I hate myself when I recognize that despite my intentions I was emotionally abusive) and I haven't shown this side and when I did it was one or two days before I would resort back. She said I can see you are really changing because in the past you had zero desire to just relax and calm down and breathe in and out. I told her that I needed to do that because my energy was just driving me insane. She said she checked out because she felt she was number 3 in my life: my work, wanting to watch sports (my escape from misery...as I teach about inequality and problems in our society) and then her. I told her that yes I made those errors where I turned you down and didn't realize I was doing it and then later wondered why we just seemed to not be right because in my mind she was the center of my world. I even agreed to buying a house. I focused on retirement. And in the meantime I told her no when she wanted to do fun things. She tried to address things I said but I didn't follow through (for different reasons... sometimes I was anxious to do something wrong because she would immediately snap at me which kills my confidence which then becomes a turn off for her).

She said she tried so many times and any time it felt better it would get bad. (Ironically, I felt the same way). I told her it's because I didn't understand a lot of things. I was so worried of losing you that I just couldn't think straight and acted out of desperation a lot of times. But that we never communicated fairly and openly about these things. She agreed and said she is really trying. And that it is just painful to think of the past. But that she wants to feel in love again. That if we would meet right now she would be madly in love but that she just cannot get over the past. That we need to meet a counselor to work on conflict resolution and communication skills (she NEVER said that lately). She says she just cannot commit to saving the marriage because she just doesn't know if she is ready for that. And that she was so DONE. She had been ready to leave for several years and I never seemed to take it seriously. That it just got very confusing when suddenly I DID seem to act differently. I told her this marriage is over. We both messed up and it just further escalated despite what we wanted. We need a new marriage. I don't ever want you to feel anything less than #1 and I want you to know how special and amazing you are. I told everyone those things except her. I thought she knew.

And just now she sent me a message saying go ahead and schedule the counselor.

(sorry that was long)