Wife wants divorce, but hasn't said divorce

[25yearsmlc]

These kinds if issues often occur when there's an outside influence on the marriage.

Meaning another man, or even possibly just a friend shitting on me?

I don't know what "a friend shitting" on you actually means, (other than being another man.) Is there someone you are thinking of?

At any rate, given your w's actual post partum issues and recently having a baby, I would not point to the direction of another man.

Of course I could be wrong, but this^^ is a situation that raises an alternative to an affair.

And you need to work on what you can control, which is yourself and your own behaviors.

If it's related to your dynamics (and there are real issues therein) and needing help with the baby and any other stressors,

time AND Your own changes are what you can/should do.

I mean, just from what I'm reading, which is from your viewpoint, I sense some "Stuff" for you.

Nothing rare about that. We're all human. But to simply point to another man and focus on that,

to me, is really counter productive.

hang in there, focus on You and Your work. Be supportive to your wife for now but stop waiting to hear the "word" divorce, when actions are what matters.

My h denied wanting a divorce when I asked, AND he said he'd tell me if he did want one...

but all of his actions said otherwise.

[jason35]

I read some advice about how I should decide the type of man I want to be and act that way. Accept that my wife is gone. If the man I become is someone she can respect she will possibly open her heart to me again.

My concern with this advice is that it may mean setting boundaries with her and calling her BS. She might respect this, she might use it as further reason to keep her heart closed to me.

[mvgfwd2]

Standing up for yourself, boundaries and calling her on her BS, are things that give her reason to respect you. Doormats get no respect. That is why you are in this situation. But understand the difference between enforcing a boundary and controlling. You can control yourself and how you react when a boundary is crossed. Demanding her to do something is controlling. You can't control her, only you.

Always remember ACTIONS are strong, WORDS are weak. And saying something just to get a reaction is super weak.

[mvgfwd2]

You have complied with leaving for a short time. And longer than you were asked. Why can't you move back home? Why should you leave and not her? Consider asking a L about moving back.

Is there an OM?

[jason35]

You have complied with leaving for a short time. And longer than you were asked. Why can't you move back home? Why should you leave and not her? Consider asking a L about moving back.

I haven't move back, because I had hoped space would help her realize that we could work this out. However, that clearly hasn't worked. There is no legal reason I cannot move back home. The house is in my name. She stayed in the home because she's a stay at home Mom and takes care of our son throughout the day.

Is there an OM?

Not that I'm aware of.

[25yearsmlc]

Jason

could you address some of the concerns I wrote about?

Although some folks always believe and blurt out that your focus should be on whether there is an OM -

I'm not one of those people.

And you have issues of your own in your sandbox

and your wife has a new baby and is a stay at home mom. And she has diagnosed post partum depression, (PPD) which most men do not understand well.

Many men blow it off as a slight mood disorder, which it most certainly is not.

But, back to who you can change, you...

what is it you want to work on in you?

HOW can you become a man only a fool would leave?

how can you support your wife with her PPD and other issues SHE has raised?

What do you think SHE would say if she were here?

[25yearsmlc]

you wrote this in your first post


Her issues with our marriage are my passiveness, convict avoidance, and lack of leadership. She feels that she has built the entire relationship and it is no irreparable. I have begun addressing these issue aggressively in therapy and owe a lot of help the the book ... She sees it as too little, too late.

She had asked me to address these issues in therapy 6 months ago, which I attempted but was not focused enough or successful enough as I was also dealing with the stresses of a bad job, being a father, and sole provider of our family.


and within 4 other posts, you said you wanted to call her on her BS.

What is the BS?

And can you tell us what you think HER life is like when you come home?

Here is something I saw my BIL do that really struck a chord in me. He returned home after a long day at the job, and being a sole provider. (My sister was a SAHM with 2 kids then. She did not have PPD like your w). The first thing my BIL asked her when he arrived home, was what he could do that would help Her the most, doing dinner or handling the kids.

SHE had the option. He was giving her a break. He really appreciated her efforts and today their kids are happy and well adjusted. Sister and BIL have a solid, happy m. It's going on 30 years now. That moment in time made quite the impression on me.

I've been a SAHM, I've been a full time working mom. Looking back, I know both options were hard b/c moms feel guilty about their kids at work and they feel unappreciated and under valued as SAHMs...

For me, going to work and then returning home to care for the kids, was easier. But I think it's mostly my being a SAHM that has assured my kids they are loved.

Just some thoughts that might help you dig a bit.

[jason35]

and your wife has a new baby and is a stay at home mom. And she has diagnosed post partum depression, (PPD) which most men do not understand well.

In this moment, I just realized that I had assumed that with the Lexapro, that she had overcome the post partum depression. But has she really? I do not know.

what is it you want to work on in you?

I have come to realize that I am a nice guy, and suffer from what Dr. Robert Glover calls "Nice Guy Syndrome". I try to please others in the hope that they will then please me. With the hope that life will be easy and calm. I do not advocate for, and assert myself and my needs for fear that I will be rejected. Because of this I have become a very passive person, a passenger along for the ride. And because I don't get my needs met, I have nothing to give, I have become shallow worrying about others. I need to get in the drivers seat, understand what I want and need, and get it. Then I will be in a position to share myself.

HOW can you become a man only a fool would leave?

I need to be stronger, more assertive, more in charge, show leadership, show a passion and energy from within that is infectious.

how can you support your wife with her PPD and other issues SHE has raised?

I can listen, I can hear her. I can communicate to her what I am thinking and feeling, I can have the strength to stand in front of her, and say what I think and feel, without fear of her emotions. With the knowledge that whatever her reaction is, I can handle it.

What do you think SHE would say if she were here?

She wanted and needed an equal partner. She felt she built the relationship because I always let her take the lead and didn't speak what I thought or was feeling. She needed me to give her myself fully instead of in such a shallow way.

I hope this answers your questions.

[25yearsmlc]

Thanks for answering Jason.

First, I'm not a psychiatrist, so I'm speculating, okay?

But my guess is that medication alone would NOT fix her PPD, and it is clear that you guys have marital issues that are playing a role in her perspective. Are you saying she's not getting any form of individual counseling or therapy?

Are you? That's not an insult. I just restarted in fact.

As for the NG syndrome, it's easily misunderstood. No offense, but there can be elements of it that lead to "covert contracts" in which you do what you see as your "job" (which is your work). So then you expect all of your needs met. Even needs you do not express. And Never mind your w's needs...

Your wife is taking care of a baby all day, and if you come home and are not helpful enough, then she's basically on call for him 24/7.

Hey, I freaking LOVE my kids, & am grateful for the years I was able to stay at home.

But it's not like babies say "thank you, mom" or give you promotions or pats on the back. Heck, they don't even let you eat your lunch or go to the bathroom by yourself. Literally. One of the things I loved about my job was drinking coffee while it was still warm...

While being a SAHM, I didn't eat a hot undistracted meal (wherein I could use both hands), in the daytime, for years.

It's draining, and can be extremely under valued. I noticed you stressed that you are the "sole provider".

It almost sounded as if you thought it was a given, that your job was harder or more important and vital than hers, as if she was just home all day eating bon bons while you worked at a "real job".

My reaction is that she was the sole provider of child care, and you were the income earner. I know you're thinking "25 is female so...she's biased" And there's some truth to that, but I would assume you want female input, & I've done both SAH and worked full time with kids, so here you have some female feedback.

As for you being too passive and not wanting rejection...here are some concerns with that...

Sometimes being "too passive" is code for saying you let your wife do all the heavy lifting in the M.

Just food for thought.

[25yearsmlc]

Another few comments...


As for fear of rejection - which we all have - just a couple remarks.

Sometimes fear that disclosure or admission of fault, will lead to rejection, pretty much leads someone to keeping secrets. And let's face it, secrets are the same thing as being dishonest. It usually starts with small things, b/c you don't want to tell your wife you got another speeding ticket or you are late from work b/c you delayed leaving work for a lousy reason,(like the traffic was NOT actually bad)

so you just lied. Why did you lie? B/c you wanted to avoid conflict (which very few people enjoys and most people want to avoid). AND you wanted to avoid the consequences of the truth, which were her disappointment or anger. The thing is, admissions and apologies -when done authentically are often bonding.

Hypothetically -

you could just confess that you were speeding - to get home faster, or b/c you were distracted and you apologize b/c you know the insurance costs will go up, etc

OR you dropped the ball coming home late, b/c you went too long at lunch and or you didn't get the work done that was due that day. You apologize for not getting there soon enough b/c you value time with her or don't want her to worry...and you don't want her to see that as a lack of appreciation for what she does b/c you Do appreciate it - so now you've turned an apology into an expression of love for her...etc.

I used to think my h made way too much of the difficulty of an apology - to the point where he rarely gave one. It's not as if I ever jumped down his throat for anything. So why the reluctance?

B/c my h and many people feel that if they admit a mistake or any type of "failure" then they will be rejected. As if the "Truth" were known that they had erred, someone would decide they were not worthy of love, possibly deserving abandonment. OR at least not seen as the nice guys they want to be seen as.

In my h's case, that problem did not come from me, it came from inside h. It was very destructive to our m and to his r's with our children.

It's a deep issue for people that can harm, limit or end important relationships in their life.

A real life example you may derive a lesson from - My older brother & sister work together.

Older bro make a fairly big mistake recently, which really hurt sister's feelings.

Objectively speaking, he was simply in the wrong, and didn't realize it till she told him privately that 1) he made a mistake about her & her kids and 2) how hurtful it was.

Instead of him simply saying he was sorry AND that he would make it right (which I'm truly positive would have ended the matter)

He hemmed and hawed! Then a week later, acted as if it had not happened. Like he had not made the mistake at all....(which was now, a lie)

That made my sister insane. There was tension at the job for both of them. So she finally cornered him at work and explained how his "Conflict avoidance" had made things so much worse than simply facing it as soon as he was made aware.

The mistake could have been a small matter, and handling it maturely probably would have solidified or improved their r! Instead, his "avoidance" was adolescent, and his shame issues ultimately caused him to be dishonest, in reality. Mind you, this didn't start as that big a deal.

Jason, you may find Brene Brown's books and TED Talks about shame's destructive effects and the need for vulnerability useful.

Fear of rejection (or Shame) can lead to having secrets. Secrets undermine trust & prevent full disclosure.

Why does "full disclosure" of our feelings matter so much? Aside from your wife asking for it, it's

Because disclosure builds intimacy.

Please take ^^that in. Truly important.

Dig deep. It's brave work.