Thank you hoosjim. We are in this together it appears and I take a bit of comfort knowing that I am not the only way...unfortunately.
Yes you made a good point in this day and age. There are ALWAYS different ways and methods to get around detection. I am in the IT security field and know quite a bit about this and know that you can always hide online if you really try hard enough. This is the reason I have no pressured TOO MUCH to have her open her phone to me. She'll say or think I'm controlling and I'll be left with likely no evidence of anything because it's already deleted or hidden.
Thank you for the thoughts and prayers and same for you my friend.
My take is not quite as urgent on this: Yes, it would be a nice sign if she would provide this (and I brought it up with mine last night, opened the door, and will bring it up again in a couple of days), but, at the end of the day, in this day and age there are about 10,000 different ways that a WW can contact her AP surreptitiously. (Create new email or other accounts, get a "straight talk" or other pay as you go phone using cash, even installing vonage on their phone so calls don't get registered with your provider. (And, if they're really slick, they can hide apps in the background so they are not easy to find in a cursory search.) If she's gonna cheat she's gonna cheat.
I'd like to respond to this statement, b/c I've seen very similar words from other LBH'S. First of all, the above quote is absolutely true!
I want to go on record as saying that the purpose of transparency is not to make a spouse stop cheating. Someone who is determined to cheat will certainly find a way to do it.
Transparency is a plan to support both spouses. It's a method of restoring assurance and trust to the betrayed spouse. It also aides the wayward spouse in avoiding tempting contacts with the AP, b/c she has nothing to hide from her H. Without full cooperation from the wayward, transparency will fail in healing either spouse. Transparency comes after the WW agrees to end her affair.
The H needs to have a reference point where he has drawn a line in the sand, and the wayward has agreed to end the affair and to have no other contacts from that point forward. It is not necessary that she feels happy about it. However, it is necessary that she agrees to do it, in an honest effort to withdraw from the addiction of the affair, and to regain her H's trust. This is the part that she has to understand. Otherwise, her resentment and rebellion will override the purpose of transparency, and she will claim the H acts like a prison warden, a spy, etc. She will balk at not having privacy, and she'll twist and turn it around until the H begins to feel he was wrong and should apologize for not trusting his WW. My point is that he needs to understand transparency, himself, before he attempts to present it to her.
Some men require a detailed account of the W's day & night. I believe that could be overdoing it, and it's not going to last very long before she'll balk. I tend to doubt these WW's who want to send photos every 15 minutes prove where they are or the activity. I do not know enough about all the new apps or how a H could verify his WW wasn't using them to contact her AP. As previously stated, she could find a way to contact the OM if she chooses to do it. The H is not to stand guard over her all the time, or constantly asking for proof of her activity.
Before ever bringing up the transparency word, a H should know where he stands. She should have to make a choice. She either chooses the M or the A, but she should have both. She either ends the affair and communication with the OM.......or separation occurs. If the H doesn't intend to separate from the cheating W.........why even bring up the affair in the first place? And........if she refuses to be transparent, he should accept her refusal as her choosing the OM over him.
Transparency does not have to last forever. In the beginning, and until she is through withdrawals, the H should verify her phone activity. From time to time, he will look at her messages. As he becomes more assured she is being honest, he will not verify as often. Over time, the verification will become less and less frequent.
If the H catches her in a backslide, then he has a choice to make. They can start over again or he can call it quits on the M. Here's the thing to remember while she's going through withdrawals........every time she contacts OM (see messages, hears his voice, sees his name, hear someone else talk about him, sees his photo, see him across the parking lot, etc. & etc.) it yanks her back to the starting place of withdrawals again. It is kind of like a drug addict can't have one more hit.
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Thank you as always Sandi. That makes perfect sense the way you stated it. Any thoughts of next steps for me? I'm in a strange place where she is kind, friendly, seems tolerant if not slightly happy to spend time with me, a bit more caring and she's definitely stepped up on her responsibilities as a parent. But, she still hasn't come clean on lies she's told me even when shown proof. She denies almost all wrong doing. I have no proof of a continuing affair but something still doesn't feel right...besides the lies.
I know, I know she's eating cake...but I think there is actually more to it. I feel like she is coming around...but the addiction of the OM I think is still holding onto her.
I feel as if I am in the same boat. Same sitch as you regards to W showing behavior of coming around. But its as if the OM is still somehow in her ear. OM endes conmunication, but my W may have just found anither to secretly contact him.
Sandi, you mentioned all those were ways that a WW could end up back at a starting place. I am not at a place where my W would agree to no contact. But if she was I know for certain that my W has screen shots of photos from his FB page and has written at least 3 poems about their sexual experience on her phone. Could that there keep her in a permanent withdrawal? And if so how would I address that situation.
Sandi, you mentioned all those were ways that a WW could end up back at a starting place. I am not at a place where my W would agree to no contact. But if she was I know for certain that my W has screen shots of photos from his FB page and has written at least 3 poems about their sexual experience on her phone. Could that there keep her in a permanent withdrawal? And if so how would I address that situation.
Absolutely, those things could keep her emotionally attached to the OM and craving contact with him. The hardest part for her will be getting him out of her head. Looking at any keepsakes from the affair is like a drug addict getting a fix. In order to break the addiction, she has to stay clear of the things that will trigger her desire to reach out to him just one more time. Each time she succumbs to the temptation, it sets her back. It's not fun for her, b/c her desire for her MR feels dead, and she sees it so impossible to revive. (We can give you ways to show support with this ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ later).
Let me ask you something, b/c the last part of your quote implies your W volunteers to end the affair and stay in the MR. So.........you have not approached her about the OM or what you would need to stay in the M? I need to refresh my memory about your situation. Until then I will answer based on a decision to approach your W with the news you cannot remain in a MR of betrayal, disrespect, and mistrust.
Transparency is nothing more than a cat & mouse game, if the WW has not agreed to end her affair and work on the M. And let me add one more thing, just b/c she agrees does not mean she'll be honest. I suggest the H does not automatically believe the MR has reconciled just b/c the WW ends her affair. Some WW's will end the affair (b/c it was about over), but also inform the H she will not work to save the M.....and wants a D. So, be mentally ready for almost anything.
Even if the WW agrees to end the affair and do the necessary work to revive the MR.......the H should be very careful about assuming their relationship has reconciled. She will have a very tough process ahead of her (if she genuinely goes through the necessary work). Until she has gone completely through withdrawals, don't assume the MR has reconciled mentally/emotionally.
Withdrawals can last for months. However, as long as she's proving to be trustworthy, then you and W can work on your friendship. You can incorporate a lot of fun activities. It doesn't need to be all gloom & doom, if she's trying to do the work. If she is doing the things you asked for (transparency, deleting all texts, photos, social media tags, and any other avenue she and the OM used to contact each other)..........then you could tell her you want to encourage her and help her through the withdrawal process. Many people are not informed about the addictive hold an affair can cause. They don't really know what to expect after ending an A. Remember, she will initially respond to her mental state, and a period of depression usually follows the end of an A. The span of time the depression lasts, varies. When your W is calm and she is showing an attitude of willingness, you should be able to convey information you've read on the topic of affairs. Cadet's signature line says, "Knowledge is Power". If the W knows the emotions she feels are very common following an A.......then hopefully, she will understand that those feelings will pass. She is not doomed to sadness and despair for the rest of her life. This post is too long, so I may have to carry this part of the discussion to a later time.
I tried to put these actions into steps, but I'm too wordy! Not even sure I dare try to number them. Anyway, let's say you are ready to break your silence about the affair.
1. You have sufficient proof (or your W confesses) of an affair. No matter what type of affair (EA, PA, IA), you have decided you cannot stay in a M of betrayal and mistrust. For you, it compromises the integrity of the M and your dignity.
2. [u]Therefore, you draw a line and tell her that you will not continue to live in a M of dishonesty, disrespect, and betrayal.
3. You present her with two options. (A) In order for the M to continue, she immediately ends the affair and blocks all contact (directly and indirectly) to the OM, his family, their shared friends, shared hangouts, app sources, and connected workplace. In addition, she agrees to being transparent and commits to the necessary work in restoring respect in the MR. (B) If she refuses option A, then she finds another place to live and files for divorce.
There are no other options, although she may try to force one by telling YOU what she'll do and not do. Well in that case, you need to be ready to separate. If she refuses to end all manner of contact with the OM,..........and refuses to commit to necessary efforts in restoring the MR..............then separation should follow, unless you want to live in limbo. Most WW's will try to drag it out as long as long as they get benefits from both sides.
4. If she agrees to option #A, then you can explain what you will need from her in order to build trust in the MR. In other words, you briefly explain your transparency plan.. Frankly, I believe there are other important factors that should be included. Such as you finding a qualified therapist who supports couples healing from affairs. Also, having your W sleep in the bed with you (just sleeping, initially).
But now listen........if she is hostile, screaming, etc. before you even mention the word transparency, then I suggest you wait until things are calmer. If she picks the second option to go with OM.......there's no point in giving her all this stuff about transparency.
The main target at this percise moment is for her to choose the M or the OM. Don't try to present everything you've learned in DBing (as some H's want to do) b/c it's overwhelming, and it's not really the time. She has a choice to make. I don't recommend time & space for her to think it over. Most WW's have dragged out the time, and still tell the H she doesn't know what she wants. That's not how this works. She either chooses her M or her A. She can't have both.. If she wants OM, then she needs to pack her bags and go to him. If she wants to stay in the M, then she needs to calm down and listen. You must stay in control of your emotions as you explain the purpose of transparency. Don't raise your voice, but do say the words with determination.
Be alert about her claims of how they will just resort to "being friends". She cannot be friends with the OM.........no matter what! Be alert to any proposals she makes, that doesn't line up with your options.
She is the one who betrayed her H, so the burden of proof is on her, and it comes through her willingness to be open with her H and show him that she has nothing private or secret from him. This is not to imply there is no work for the H. They will have individual work, as well as couple work. Her work may look nothing like his work, especially while she's going through the painful process of getting back to a healthy place.
5. Once you have explained what you will need from transparency, tell her she needs to begin right now, by deleting and blocking everything that was associated with the OM. You need to watch with her as she deletes and/or destroy things. BTW, if she has passwords, she needs to give them to you. The first time you are blocked, you'll know she has private/secret things from her H.
Needless to say, none of this should begin late in the night. If you approach her about the affair........choose a time when neither of you have been drinking, are stressed with other distractions, or physically exhausted.
Sorry for taking up so much room. I have difficulty finding an end!
It is not about what you feel should work in your M. It is about doing the work that gets the right results. Do what works!
Well folks, sad to report that her affair is still ongoing...on Mothers Day of all days. Wife was at yoga training and half way home from being at MIL with our kids...I saw her gps showed her van at a closed restaurant. Seems like she got out early. I drove there to find empty van. Waited around a bit and then called. Told me she was on way home but of course she wasn't. I called her out and her end went silent as soon as she figured out she was busted. I started driving home and actually passed his truck with her in it going other direction. Honked at them and kept going. Guessing she had been at his house.
Swapped a few texts. She apologized for deceiving me...fell on deaf ears. The ridiculous part is she mainly just kept asking how I knew where she was. I just kept my mouth shut.
She finally came home even after I told her I didn't want her here. Left blanket and her pillow on couch and she ended up sleeping with one of the boys.
How low can a person go to skip spending even a bit of time with her Mom and kids on Mother's Day to go spend time with the OM? Sickening.
On top of that she admits to lying but still won't fess up to a PA. I think she is afraid of putting it in writing because of fear of me using it in a custody battle but I'm not sure.
I'm drained, frustrated, and angry. Going to see if I can consult with a lawyer ASAP and also try to get her to leave. The sight of her makes me ill.
I am really sorry to hear that this is happening to you. Get yourself a lawyer and focus all your energy into your kids. The worst part of not knowing is over. You will get through this and life will go on.
Sandi, your timing is impeccable. Your last post above hits right at the heart.
She is still not staying in our MBR but also will not leave the house. I can't force this and she knows it.
We spoke on the phone (while I was on my way to see a lawyer) yesterday. She was literally crying for 1 1/2 hours and I held strong and firm. In fact I was a bit of an ass, but it was well deserved.
She committed (again) to breaking things off with OM and today she said she texted him all was over. Of course I requested to see text but she claims it was deleted already.
I reminded her that she broke all trust with me, her parents, and all of those that are closest to her. Crying on part continues. I asked if she would still be having this conversation with me IF she hadn't been caught again and she avoided. I probed again and she said probably not.
Anyhow a lot of back and forth and she did commit again to break ties with OM. Told her I still don't trust her at all because I have no reason too. Transparency was also brought up but it will be again just so she understands. She still isn't completely committed to MR because she still doesn't know what she wants, still isn't happy with our MR, still loves me but isn't in love with me, cliche after cliche. Told her she needs to make a decision...either commit to working on us or we separate or divorce. Told her I need a definitive answer soon. I know I should immediately put her feet to the fire, but I also wanted her to calm down and put a bit of effort into the decision before rushing just to tell me what I want or don't want to hear. I need her in a more calm state than what she was.
Today she went to a lawyer, we openly discussed this. She claims she was going because I was trying to get her out of the house and only wanted legal advice. She said her mom is so angry that she didn't feel like she could go there or that her mom would even help her out. She says she did NOT hire them or put them on retainer and since I can see bank charges, I don't think she did. She says she is not ready yet for that.
During same conversation and on her way home from the lawyer, asked if I wanted to have lunch with her my youngest?!? Really? You just saw a divorce attorney and now you ask me to lunch??? Insanity. I told her no thanks of course.
