180man Thread 4

[25yearsmlc]

Not that I'm an expert, but I second everything 25yrsmlc said.

My anniversary and wife's birthday are in May, too, and I'm not getting her squat. I'll send a card to my MIL, though.

I have to say, I think your detailed plan for GAL is great. Keep it up!

My W also has a birthday in May. Not sure how to proceed with that one, considering I don't want to appear to be neglecting her. Even though she still wants a BD. And I know what the rules say about gifts. As for mothers day, I may get her the most basic if all cards, since she is the mother of my child. Pretty sure my W will noticed the difference compared to me going all out in previous years.

Thanks Jim, thanks Tread. Hope my GAL plan wasn't too hard to read...the + items are things I've done already. I feel good about making some progress.

I know for certain I won't get her any presents, but I may consider a card like 25yrsmlc suggested...depending on how things go over the next few weeks, I guess. Our anniversary is the day before her bday, both are at the end of the month.

Good point on the difference between previous years and present. I hear what you're saying about following the rules, and I agree that gifts would not be a good idea in general. However, we're humans, not a math equation. I feel the desire to slowly reconnect with my W and it's possible that a card may be appropriate. 25 said to someone else on the board recently that perhaps if you open up a little, she will open up a little. I'm really not sure, but I do know that all is not black and white.

I think my words to a guy around here was that "Disclosure builds intimacy"

and I absolutely believe this with all my heart.

If my h had come to me with his inner fears and shame & whatever festered into his resentments and secrets, and had done it without judgement or anger

I suspect we'd either still be married in a loving m...

(or we'd have split long, long ago and known why...)

Disclosure and emotional sharing are, imo, how most EA's begin in otherwise functioning m's.

One spouse shares too little or withholds (very related), and the lonely spouse feels shut out, and or looks elsewhere, or leaves to do so.

The more authentic and open we are, the more safe our loved ones feel in being authentic and open with us...providing we are listening with open hearts and not judgement.

[25yearsmlc]

180

my comment about "Disclosure" does not mean you need to do that, NOW.

It's general advice, and better applied for m couples or couples in piecing...

I don't know what your porn/intimacy issues were - and am still not clear on who is deploying near your wife, or the OM, or you, etc. Are THEY going to be close to each other?

In any event, I do have a few questions.

Re the birthday card and MIL cards//

I'd do nothing for your w's birthday - b/c that is about HER and your feelings for her, which she certainly knows.

If it's about the anniversary and you are bidding goodbye to the m but with a decent feeling about it when it was good, then keep it brief and don't sign "love". Understand this is NOT for her to look at you differently

-but if it does - it will not be due to you sending a card about the anniversary. I tend to think anniversary cards after divorce are only okay if there were kids involved, b/c it validates the beauty of what was created by the m, even if the m ends...

I tend to disagree (rarely!) with Sandi on the inlaw card, but I don't know your r with your MIL.

In my case, my inlaws have been in my life longer than my own dad was, and I do not want to lose my connection to them.

I can honestly say with certainty that sending my MIL a birthday card does not reflect a desire to pursue my h. MAYBE at worst it reveals a desire to look above reproach and negate whatever I fear h is saying????

But, I also know that she's my kids only grandma now and she's a loving woman I've known quite well for over half my life. I love that woman and to a lesser extent, my FIL.

I also love my h's brother and his wife. They live an hour from me, now. BIL will always be like a brother to me. When d28 and d19 visited at Christmas, we went to see BIL and his wife.

We had a blast. BIL and I barely spoke of h or the divorce. Maybe 5 minutes & it was BIL who brought it up...I felt validated but did not feel that BIL was going to call h and try to talk h out of anything.

180, my situation is a much longer m and we have children who are the only grandkids and only nephew/nieces for my BIL/sister in law.

So that's ^^where I'm coming from.

Check yourself. Are you really doing it b/c you'd keep in touch with them in 5 years even when you are remarried to another woman?

Because if that ^^ is not true, then consider the card a grateful farewell card and mean it (without saying so).

But if it's really to keep the pathway open to your w, I'm not on board.

No one is suggesting a scorch and burn policy here. But I do feel a huge longing and pursuit thread in here.

Last questions.

IF somehow, your w returned tomorrow and said "let's make it work"

what would be different in the marriage, than before?

For now, just address what you would do differently... Specifically

[180Man]

Look within yourself.

Is it?

Why are you doing it? What are your expectations?

You can wrap it up in a pretty package and label it as "decent" or "opening up" or "something positive" or "reaching out" or anything else you think sounds like a good excuse. But to the wayward it is pursuit.

Actually, you may be hurting your own chances by sending these cards to the MIL and Step-MIL.
...
Your wife knows you, and she knows the true intentions of you wanting to mail cards to her relatives...maybe better than you know yourself.
...
If anything screams of pursuit to the WW.....that certainly does.

Check yourself. Are you really doing it b/c you'd keep in touch with them in 5 years even when you are remarried to another woman?

sigh

Well, when I posted this morning I was on the fence. But after reading everything you guys have said today, going to IC, AND talking to my hair stylist during my appointment today (she's about a year ahead of me in her divorce situation and we talk about our shitty situations...she seems to know what's up).

You guys are right.

To answer your question 25, I do love these women. They are my family. I don't have the decades of family experiences with them that you do with yours and I don't see myself being able to cope with attempting to keep in touch with them if I do have to move on to another R.

It's embarassing to keep finding myself in this mental place again and again just to have you guys pull me back from the ledge time and again. I'm trying hard to do all this work on me, but my brain sometimes just can't deal with this new reality. Honestly, sometimes it feels like she's just on deployment, like none of this is real, and that I'll drive down to the base one of these days and pick her up with flags and shít waving everywhere like any other return from a deployment. Fortunately these thoughts don't last too long, but sometimes I can't fathom this version of reality.

Thank you to the three of you for giving me a big slap across the face, I guess I needed it.

I doubt you'll listen to me b/c you don't like what I have to say.

Sandi, I'm sorry I made you feel as if I didn't value your opinion. I never intended that. In fact, a couple of months ago I read through page after page of your postings from over the years. I think I was really frustrated last time you posted on my thread because I was really having a hard time hearing what you guys were telling me and then you made a mistake thinking there was an OM#2 in my situation and the thought of that combined with everything else at the time was just too much for me. I also feel as if my writing style is too verbose and that, ironically, makes it harder for people to help me because there is so much to read through. So, that's why I started a fresh thread last time, it wasn't you. I'm sorry that I came across that way and made you feel unappreciated.

what would be different in the marriage, than before?

Well, I feel I have made a lot of progress since December. I know I'm not there yet, perhaps I'll never fully feel like I'm there, I don't know. I also know I am, like others here, more eager to resolve this sooner rather than later, despite knowing that it probably hasn't been long enough yet. We both need the tincture of time right now. But my brain fights this.

So what would I do differently? Continue going to the gym all the time. I was never fat but I got soft around the edges and I never fully apprecitated the significant stress relief that the gym brings me now. That would have helped me during so many stressful times at work, but instead my W had to watch me stress out at home while I tried to study my face off and pull my hair out worrying about if I might fail. Funny, she would look at me and say...in all of the years you've been doing this, how many times have you failed something? I would say...well, I failed an event once. Meanwhile my peers have failed multiple things over the years. So...the gym would have helped on many levels and I think it's one of many things that can help keep you well rounded and grounded.

Sex. I would do sex differently. I didn't appreciate the connection it brought us. I let it become routine. I was doing it for my pleasure, not for hers. But now I realize that it's not supposed to be like the trash you see on the internet. If I were to really just focus on her needs and pleasing her, that would change the dynamic completely. Not because she should be the only one to experience pleasure, but because by satisfying her, I would in turn be ensuring we are both satisfied. Not sure if that makes sense, but it does in my head.

Chores. Yeah...if I am home a couple of hours before she is, I need to take some time to clean the kitchen and sweep up a little bit. Get started on dinner. Acts of Service are one of her love languages and this stuff needs to be done anyways. She's not my mother. Yeah, I was really depressed last year about work and that made it hard for me. In fact, I still can't wait to get out of my current black hole of a job, but I'm making the best of it now. And I understand now that I can't just allow myself to get so sucked into my problems that it brings both of us down.

Negativity. PMA is something I need to work hard at. But I'm finding my faith and I'm developing my spiritual and philisophical sides and I know I'm susceptible to being negative, so I must actively fight against it.

I guess these are just a few of the things I would do differently. It's probably not enough, but I know I'm better than I was and I refuse to regress.




So...any of you need a mother's day card? I have two sitting right here...

[25yearsmlc]

I still say you can send your MIL one IF IF it's done as a way of thanking her for what she has meant to you (assuming this is authentic)

and say it in a way that shows you accept your w's decision. You just didn't want to leave your MILs life without ever telling her what she meant to you. Keep it brief, like under 1-2 paragraphs and wish them well

I think it's safe to do especially since you are NOT sending your w a card.

[180Man]

When I was at MIL's house in Feb for Step-FIL's massive stroke, I wrote MIL a letter before I left basically saying what you said above. It was heartfelt and difficult to write. I figured that would be the last time I ever stepped foot in that house and it made me extremely sad. I also left her a bunch of cash since, at the time, she had no access to money. Step-FIL managed all the accounts and whatnot and even though they had money in the accounts, it took her a couple weeks to sort out the legal bs. She knows how I feel. She thinks he daughter is an idiot, but she is consumed with taking care of her H. Even if she weren't, my W has to come to her own conclusions, not be forced by others. Influenced, sure, but you can't push a rope, right?

[sandi2]

I was really having a hard time hearing what you guys were telling me and then you made a mistake thinking there was an OM#2 in my situation and the thought of that combined with everything else at the time was just too much for me.

I also called you by the wrong name, which I think tipped you off that I had you and another poster confused. It happens, occassionally, when reading from post to post. Sometimes, when I sense the newcomer is emotionally shutting me out, I will back off. I don't take it personally, b/c I realize when I am trying to reveal the wayward wife......it is not the warm, positive words that are gladly received. Most people, I think, believe I am giving them 2x4's. That is not my intentions, whatsoever. All I can do is tell them what I have learned the past ten years, and then it's up to them to accept or reject it.

My posts tend to be way too long, and I think parts are missed. For instance, in my last post I gave the view from the wayward wife perspective........but I also said similar to what 25yrsmlc said about your relationship with your WW's mothers.

When you are on the board for a long time, you see sooooo many LBH'S trying the same attempts to desperately get their WW back. Don't take this the wrong way, ......it's as if the LBH'S are using the same cookie cutter to produce the desired results. I understand how we are led by emotions. For men, especially, their nature is to pursue.....so that is what their emotions are dictating. They also want all the hope anyone can offer them. Why wouldn't they want hope, right?

Well, sometimes I feel like a doom & gloom prophet that nobody wants to hear. I rely on others here who have that natural talent in their writing to encourage newcomers. I appreciate those folks very much. I feel that I have a small window of time to reach the ones I can, and if it appears there is a WW in the stitch, I just lay the information out there b/c I want the H to know what he's dealing with in his M.

I believe a M can be saved, even when there is a WW. Truthfully, we don't get the final results from most of our posters. They just tend to fade away. IMHO, there are many couples who D b/c the W is wayward and the H has tolerated her behavior so long that he either lacks the confidence to set effective boundaries.........or else she was too far gone before he finally decided to enforced his boundaries.

I will share something that I've never told on the board. I use to teach small groups of young married couples at our church. I had studied for years b/c of my own personal dissatisfaction in my MR. So, when I was faced with these small groups, I really dug in my heels to learn more about relationship issues, and to hopefully present information that would have wonderful results for these couples. We discussed the differences in men and women, the woman with a closed heart, the empty love bank.....etc. However, I honestly don't remember (without looking back at my old notes) if the subject of waywardness was approached. If it was, I'm sure it was disguised by some other modern and more acceptable term. But at that time in my life, I really was not informed about the foundation, breakdown, journey and the process of healing for the WW.

Several years later, I was no longer studying R books. My own MR was at an all time low, and my resentment and feelings of disrespect for my H was about to top out in a form of rebellion that I would have NEVER believed about myself. What I was experiencing had been sugar coated in the secular material I had read about MR. Some material may have made an indirect reference or used a softer term, but obviously, I saw it from different eyes than I currenty view it. The Christian material referred to the woman with a hard heart, the wayward woman, and the foolish woman (which, of course, I never saw myself in this category) I knew some other women who I thought fit that category. However, I was only observing the overt behavior of those women. I understood the definition of a wayward woman, but I had not fully understood the mindset until my own experience.

At some point later (after my wayward journey) I began to study it closer and I could see clear differences in the WAW and the wayward wife. I have continued to observe these patterns in marriages with a WW, over & over again. There is a common thread I see in marriages with a WW. For the most part, they seem to have H's who appear to have the nice guy syndrome.

Just sharing.......FWIW to anyone reading.

[180Man]

Thanks for sharing that Sandi, it's really interesting that you were working with couples before everything happened. I also find it interesting that you see a distinct difference between the secular and Christian flavors of R books. In December my W immediately went out on her own and bought "You and Me Forever; Marriage In the Light of Eternity" and "Love and Respect" which is also a Christian book -- the author's premise being that you can solve everything if the man is given respect and the woman is given love.

My W did not like that premise and felt she needed the respect and I needed the love. I didn't understand why we couldn't both have both. Needless to say, we stopped using this book shortly thereafter. The former book I am almost done with...it's okay, but it's really all about using your marriage to serve God together, not about how to fix your R after an affair. I also picked up the nice guy book people have talked about here, I made it about halfway through before getting distracted by other R/self-help books. I should probably pick it up again...I have a pile of R books that I need to finish, I guess I have a little bit of reader's ADD.

I have read your writings on WW vs WAW, albeit not recently, but I never could figure out what I have on my hands or if it matters. She is not in my face about anything like some W's, she has never called me a name or been verbally disrespectful, and in the two times I've seen her since BD in January, the conversation has been calm and as cordial as possible, given the circumstances. It does not feel like we are playing the same game that others are, especially since she has moved out and I'm not seeing her every day. Or maybe we are playing the same game but just a different flavor? Maybe I am naive.

Or maybe she IS right, maybe we just aren't right for each other and she's doing the best she can to make a civil departure from the R because...it's the right thing to do? On the other hand, three weeks ago she told me we were best friends and great partners and were simply not romantically suited for each other (I interpreted this as sex). Who wouldn't want to be married to their bff? Isn't that the whole idea? Well, I have my first sex therapy appointment today, so hopefully it's productive and not too weird.

25: It just popped in my head that you asked for clarity about our deployment situation and I think I forgot to respond to it? OM leaves the command sometime in the next few weeks, he will be on the other side of the globe with a new set of orders. He will not be anywhere near my W anytime soon. My W deploys in early July, they're supposed to go to the sand box, but your guess is as good as mine -- NK is certainly not off the table. I stay here for the foreseeable future, though I am applying for better career opportunities when able. I should hear back in August and February whether or not those opportunities decide they want me. I might lose my shít if they say no! Uggghhhh, if you only knew what I do for a living, my frustration with this desk job would make so much more sense. Of course I have been doing better and better with this damn job the last few months and now they're relying on me more and more...at least they are supportive of my efforts to return to my calling. I am thankful for that.

[sandi2]

To clarify, I agree that the W and the H should respect each other. It is crucial for the W to feel respect for her H, b/c it is tied to her desire. The man needs to feel admiration and she needs to feel cherished. When we fail to sincerely show our spouse our best efforts in filling their most important emotional need in a MR, then how can we expect more than what we get?

Thanks for sharing that Sandi, it's really interesting that you were working with couples before everything happened.

Ironic, right? Just goes to show that when we ignore those basic emotional needs in our spouse........eventually, it leaves the MR vulnerable. And btw, I am talking about years of unmet needs.

I also find it interesting that you see a distinct difference between the secular and Christian flavors of R books

Well, only b/c the secular material stays away from attaching religious references to their program, book, or whatever they are selling. It doesn't mean they don't have valuable information. In fact, I probably used at least an equal amount of secular resources as religious ones in my class, ......b/c my audience were young adult couples who mostly grew up in church and were seeking something further than hearing "thou shalt and thou shalt not" that they got on Sundays. They wanted "how to" solutions for particular problems the modern day family faces. So I tried to present that information......without teaching anything that was contrary to the beliefs of my church.

Unfortunately, I cannot remember studying the information that would be so critical for my own personal M crisis a few years later. I had studied about infidelity in religious material, but I had never read or heard anything about how affairs are addictive and all the other stuff I would be getting from my DB mentors. I felt as if I had been living in the dark ages! How had I missed it in all the materials about MR's? Maybe I wasn't searching for the right key words, maybe I read something but saw it with a self-righteous view, and therefore, missed what it was really saying, or maybe b/c I never dreamed it would apply to me one day. I know that the way I saw a wayward wife back then.....and how I see a WW after being one myself.....has been enlightening, to say the least. It's not just b/c I experienced it. It has much more to do with what I have learned since then.

Sorry, getting off the subject a bit. So anyway, there are good resources out there that reveal fresh ideas, and perhaps explain things in a way that we never had considered. Like men are from Mars and women from Venus that everyone went crazy over when it was first published. The author didn't really reveal something I had not previously studied, but his presentation was fresh, even funny at times, and simple to grasp. There are authors who are recognized as writing "religious based" books, who had written practically the same thing........but just used a different style in getting the message through to the readers.

Thanks for your interest.

[Btrow]

I have read your writings on WW vs WAW, albeit not recently, but I never could figure out what I have on my hands or if it matters. She is not in my face about anything like some W's, she has never called me a name or been verbally disrespectful, and in the two times I've seen her since BD in January, the conversation has been calm and as cordial as possible, given the circumstances. It does not feel like we are playing the same game that others are, especially since she has moved out and I'm not seeing her every day. Or maybe we are playing the same game but just a different flavor? Maybe I am naive.

180,
My XW is the same. She has been nothing but nice on every interaction we've had since BD, and she is all smiles when we meet. I cant even provoke her to any sort of negative reaction. Us LBS's all react in different ways to our sitches, maybe there also are different levels of waywardness. Or maybe some WW's are able to deal with their issues when they aren't around us.

[180Man]

Well, I went to sex therapy yesterday. I didn't quite know what to expect. I mean, I thought I did, but I definitely didn't. Anyways, it was both really good and really weird. Not sure how to describe it. Anyways, I have hope that I can work through some of my problems so they are no longer problems. I'll continue going to ST along with IC...it certainly can't make me a worse person, right?

Btrow, I just read through your thread...yeah...I wish I had an answer for both of us. I don't know. Yesterday I was onboard with continuing NC, but I am so easily swayed one way or another when I talk to others or read...I am normally not like this, but I guess in this situation I have no foundation or knowledge of what is right. I want to feel that what I am doing is the right thing. Since everyone pulled me back from the ledge in the last day or two, I have started to feel a mild amount of anger at some points in the day toward my W. Thoughts such as "Well, if she doesn't want me, if she wants to run away, if she can't handle this...fùck her!". Those thoughts are both scary and reassuring at the same time.

But then I talk to someone else last night and they plant a seed that takes me back toward...maybe I need to just be the man and tell her I want to see her once a week and do something fun. What if she responded positively to that? What if everyone is wrong? I mean, I know she would reply to any email I send. And I have the gut feeling that she would likely agree to hang out. And how else do you build goodwill and positive experiences other than to spend time with each other?

It's all very confusing and I hate it. I hate being resolute one day and the next day being unsure. And I'm sure I'm frustrating the hell out of everyone here. I'm such an amateur.

I can make a decision in a snap on whether or not to engage the enemy, but I'm a wet blanket when it comes to my M.

Time for a run, maybe it will help clear my head...