25 yearsMLC 10 years late I FILE part 2

[25yearsmlc]

180

I hear you. (Oh, geez I just realized I've been paying for his/her phone and mine, which was my "Christmas gift" both on my credit card. Excellent).

So now it's her only phone (a pricey iPhone & I ought to know).

So I asked her partner to take the phone and delete the messages, b/c they're not healthy for d19. She agreed.

I think d19 took a screen shot of it...which just so $ucks. She's gay and so she'll associate his rejection with that, I THINK.. D19 was troubled and had a temper, and imo, her being gay is, IN H's opinion a bad reflection on him. I think he's ashamed of her, although I have seen efforts on his end to overcome that. (Hey, I'm not giving him an award, just admitting that he's never condemned her and will tell anyone who gives her crap, that it's none of their business and I have one BIL who says "Christians must condemn gays". H and I were totally on the same page with that idiot).

My guess is it's more that d19 is angry at him b/c she saw more crap from him than the older ones did. She suspects other A's (and she might be right).

She just sent me a text telling me I'm a 'Star mother" and that she is "proud of me and so glad" I'm not with her dad.

I don't feel vindicated, but I feel sad for her and on the other hand, I also do feel loved. Oh Christ...

Hmm, that's a tough one. My older B is gay. He has never told me, but my M told my W and I several years ago. I kind of figured as much, but whatever. Never talked about it with my F at all, I got the impression from my M that he initially rejected the idea but came around to accept it. My M and B are victims, that's their nature. If you ever needed to study the art of the guilt trip, they would be the first ones to observe.

Shame usually breeds secrets, and they get harder to hide. Then more secrets to hide the first secrets, etc. I'm just saying this this^^ is a whole lot of "not saying" .

I read this quote and I'm paraphrasing it...

Disclosure builds intimacy. The less we share of ourselves, the less we are known, and the more shallow our connections.


To my knowledge my F never said anything to my B about it, nor held anything against him. I suspect he was probably disappointed, perhaps in himself, I'm not sure. I'd ask him but he had a stroke two years ago and has been in a nursing home since.

so it's too late to ask, now? Not to hammer the point too much, but damn...this is the cost of the secret. To be clear, I'm referring to the gay B, not the rest of the stuff your mom sort of knows but does not need details of.


Can't talk, I don't even know how much of him is still in there. My W's step-father met the same fate two weeks after BD. MIL is now taking care of him all the time, plus working two jobs, plus trying to keep kids in line...telling my W to unfùck herself is now a low priority, as much as MIL is on my side. Wow, am I rambling or what?! Sorry!!

I was angry when I was your D's age. It took a girl breaking up with me to really calm me down. I don't know what I was angry about...it was just in there for some reason. You can't do anything about your H's view on D19's lifestyle choice.

well, I asked d19 if she thought any of her sexuality was related to her poor r with her dad. She said "it didn't help." She had a boyfriend before but in any case, some will chime in about how being gay is not a choice. I KNOW THIS...she is also attracted to men, or was, so there's a preference in there somewhere.

Our older d also declared herself bisexual around the same time h left for his 2nd year away (Just checking a job out" - never admitting that he was missing her junior and senior years of high school),

When she came out, and discussed the boys she had dated, she also said "men have hurt" her more than women.
When both daughters told me they were not straight, (but they are very different and i don't mean to just lump them into one group),

I know for a brief day or so, it crossed h's mind that he might have played a part in their discomfort with men. Whatttt???

Not so much their attraction to women but for sure their fear of loving a man. I mean, they said that. This isn't guess work. But he couldn't "go there", way too painful and maybe, well imo, H is more concerned with how he is seen than whether he's done wrong.

That whole difference between guilt (you know you did wrong, even if no one finds out) and shame (worrying that others will find out AND reject you or see you in another light, is your worst fear, not the content of the action)....

Shame played/plays a huge role in h's life now more than ever. To hear his narrative of our m...we all know there are different perspectives but my God, his is WAY off of my kids and my own recall. S30 said h is mentally ill and I balked. S30 said "mom, look at him. He substitutes his reality for ours...good riddance to lunacy."

So 180...what do you think the role shame AND OR secrets played in your family? Is your gay brother close to anyone in the family? Does he have a committed partner?

I don't know him at all, obviously. But I feel an estranged loneliness for him. And since your parents never addressed what was under the rug they had swept things,

I bet you can see why your w's fears mounted. Maybe to her, the strokes meant eternally unresolved issues.




Everyone who makes that choice has to deal with it in one form another. I'm not saying that's good or bad, it is what it is. But you are a Star Mother for caring about her and asking her partner to clean out the texts!

thanks

180,

that's a lousy experience to recall. (Sorry). I'm intrigued that you never mentioned it to your dad.

So, the model of marriage you had growing up wasn't exactly something positive to emulate, was it?

Eh, it's okay. Not as bad as when my W and I drove up to my parent's house after the stroke and found a briefcase of sex toys my F had stashed in the garage which he had, presumably, been sharing with his old secretary. W and I never told my M, we drove down the street and threw it in a dumpster. She found out about the A, but the least we could do was spare her that discovery.



My parents fought a lot when I was young. Nothing physical, just lots of yelling. Consequently, I hate yelling.

A lot of us learned what "not to do", but we tend to revert to it when stressed OR we do the opposite. H for sure either yelled or kept it to himself in his emotional backpack where he could seethe, then lose his $hit in a huge over reaction b/c it was really about things he'd been accumulating,

or he'd do what is called "Collusion" in which he'd complain to others about me or something I did or did not do, but never tell ME, the appropriate audience. I've pondered this behavior a lot. Here is why it's so destructive.

(And I'm not referring to a few minutes of venting to our peeps, which is normal and probably healthy). But the complaints that are never shared with the correct target, like your spouse or your boss, co-worker, is unfair to the target, and its disloyal. Ever wonder who spoke of your b's life, or your wife & you, lately?

I think H did it to get buy in from his bff, b/c for one thing, his bff is also MY friend and bff's wife is close to me. So he wanted to lay the groundwork for heading off to Alaska, and justifying nearly daring me to file. OR he just passively hoped others would pass on the criticisms and that way, h wouldn't have to own anything.

Either way, what a jerk.

The disloyalty of this^^ and the failure to show up for me when I was so sick, felt worse to ME, than anything else short of hitting me. (I filed before news of OW came out)

Some argue about how A's are the "worst thing ever, the biggest betrayal, most disrespectful" etc. I am weary and leery of black and white rules like that.( I mean, they can speak for themselves, you know?)

To be clear, yes I hate A's too. They're gut wrenching. I get it.

But I can at least I understand the temptation. (There's an appeal). Heck, 25 years ago I almost had an A. It was Desrt Storm and we were both Active duty. 2 little kids at the time.

I was so lonely, that it hurt. H was irritable when he was actually home, He worked 80+ hours a week, every week and there was no end in sight. One week I counted his hours away at work and it was 96, plus he read for a case when he came home. So he still wasn't present.

Those are insane hours and it's awfully hard on families too.

I still come close to justifying the A too, based on this^^^ his irritability when he was home, which was rare. I mean he wasn't exactly grateful for MY sacrifices, as he fell asleep at the table, often. The "almost A" was about MY PAIN and the temptation of an attentive OM, not my "disrespect" for h or the marriage. I think i did resent H for the situation sat some level, but not consciously.

But I digress...

Deserting a sick spouse, the one who bore your children, the backstabbing about you, that takes time and thought and isn't a momentary lapse. It'd be awfully hard to overcome this.

I TRY to imagine retcons just so I can say "never say never". So I can always say I'm open hearted.

But even if all the work in the world happened in h's heart and mind, even if he woke up and did all the work needed - I would not believe it to be effective till a few years had passed.

*So maybe in your situation, maybe it really is a thing where you back off, each get space and touch base now and then...until she sees that the you were close and bonded, for a reason.



Was definitely a shock when I went through OCS, hah. They toned down as I got older and by the time I was in college they really seemed to get along like great friends a lot of the time. I know there was still plenty of arguing, but as much as they bítched about each other, I would watch them at dinner and they really got along well sometimes. Let's just say that I thought I had learned what NOT to do from my parents....but....my R went flat instead and now I'm here. At least the dog still likes me, I think...

Learning what not to do, is helpful. I strongly believe that learning what TO DO, is more important. Why?

Because in times of stress, we revert to what we know OR we avoid anything remotely resembling it, too much.

G, a dear friend of mine, (H's bff) is perhaps the best h and best father I know. He's about 50 and he's always been a sensitive fair thoughtful guy.

G's role model for what Not to do, was his own dad. G's dad impregnanted his OW so that when G was 9, he watched his mom cry, his parents divorce and his father introduce the OW (now his W#2) as his new family. G was supposed to accept her without much time, and also welcome his new baby brother.

A few years later G's dad got a divorce and G was supposed to adjust again. His dad remarried wife #3, Sally. His dad and Sally remained married for some time. That's when I knew G's dad, and he was borderline weird. I recall him saying something like "Who wears the pants in this family?" And this was in modern times, you know?
Stuck out in my recall of course.

So fast forward a few years and Sally left G's dad. His dad just fell apart. I mean, he was very controlling and domineering and seemed strong,

but when his 3rd m fell apart, so did he. Eventually, after draining those around him for some time, G's dad took his own life.

Lousy, right? YES it was lousy. So how did G become the best dad/h that I know?? He sure knew what NOT to do, but how'd he learn how to to the right thing?

He found a few role models. He had a role model for being a good dad/h from his FIL, and he learned about fathering from his kids' coaches and he learned about how to handle stress from a deacon at church. So that when life threw him a curve ball, which it did, he had positive paths and options to choose from, that he already knew.

Last week there was a photo of G and his family on FB. Not a posed one either. Just them walking on the beach with their adult kids, and their spouses, and 2 grand kids.

I was happy and then mournful and then envious. I confessed this to them. I recall thinking that "it could have been h and me." So, 180, keep up your work for 2 reasons.

1) b/c it'll make you a better man. Period.

2) b/c your w might look your way and see that consistent changes were made, over time, so she can believe them to be real, and lasting.

She can come to believe only with time and change, that you guys are not destined to be your parents.

While you are at it, contrast any of those negative images that you can. If your dad was a fat sloth then you come the slim fit guy.

You get the point.

Hang in there.