So Confused and Conflicted (7)

[Vanilla]

Which means there was gaslighting in my view, the LBS has convinced themselves there is still a lot of love.

Do you think that my belief that my wife still has a lot of love for me (or at least did right before she switched over to the OM) is a false belief?

What I think doesn't matter. There is that probability and it needs considering.

Why?

At the moment you have only one view of it.

You may never know what is in her head. She left and did not work on M. That stinks frankly especially as you felt it was full of love.

What matters to me is you and your future. That you consider this possibility and know that working on you is the best option.

I say this to encourage you to think about your choices. Like 25 because this option as a choice is a possibility that can stimulate your thoughts to growth and development of you.

That's why I think it's unreasonable the action of the wayward because it's script.

Sorry. I don't understand this sentence. Can you elaborate on that?

When spouses leave they seem to have a 'script'.
A playbook. Waywards do that which they need including practiced and well rehearsed lies. That is hurtful too.

V

[LITB]

And the second time? Did the "alien" leave? Was your wife back for the most part, with improvements? Was she her loving self again? Surely she must have been, for it to work, but I'm just asking.

I'll briefly answer your questions. It was no longer up to my W for our M/R to continue. I had done the work and had moved on. The tables had turned.

So I wasn't so anxious to let her back in until I believed her changes were genuine. And I had to take our kids into consideration. Otherwise, I would have been content going my own way.

Today, I can say that I don't regret working on our M or even going through the mess. We are both better because of it and so is our M. Many lessons learned.

It took hard work to change behavioral patterns, and improve relationship/communication skills. I will always suggest to identify issues and work to address them. Be the captain of your ship.

[Woke_Up]

Dealing with my W back then was like dealing with a petulant child. When she didn't get her way, it would get ugly. I had to learn how to effectively respond to her without adding fuel to the fire.

LITB

In these situations, what did you find worked for you?

[25yearsmlc]

Of course. That's natural. The downside is when it continues to deflect from our personal work, especially on things the WAS did identify as problems for them, in us.

25, I know of some things I need to work harder to change, but can you tell me what you think I need to change?

I have given you several suggestions about learning social and personal cues so your partner won't have to quantify the importance of requests and you won't then decide if you think it's worth doing -a lot of people gave you feedback about how you view your situation and tend to thnk it was all a misunderstanding.

I have said many times, her "complaints" as you call them were repeated and those are warnings that she sees need for a change.

You calculated it, rather doing it for love, and you miscalculated it. So it's not really a misunderstanding so much as a miscalculation

You took the risk that she would not leave you for doing X and not doing Y, even though you knew she wanted those.

Seems no matter how many times Sandi OR LITB, or Kaizen or I say this

you retain the same intractable position that she did not warn you.

You know your history and you know the warnings your w gave you that you - for whatever reason - did not heed.

I don't agree that my wife gave warnings about breaking up. In my opinion, she gave requests, not warnings. A warning, to me, would be "if you don't do X, Y will be the consequence" or "I need X in my life" or "I can't live this way".

I know you don't agree. You expected specific words to be used, I understand your that.

I 'm saying the words she used were in fact warnings FOR HER b/c She left.

So they must have been warnings, and now is not the time to argue semantics.


Wouldn't it be useful for you to learn about NOT measuring and quantifying the relative value of a "request" and try to love her as best you can?

When I say to "love your best" -do you think I want you too be a doormat? I don't. Being giving does not usually lead to doormat behavior...it usually results in the return of deep love in healthy r's.

I just want you to be more giving so everything is not measured. I think have a feeling she loved you very much. But she needed things from you that she did not get, and Wsh, maybe You cannot give her those? And if so, that's sad, but good to know now.

So maybe you need an introvert or homebody or a different type of w if your w's requests were too subtle OR hard for you to comply with, so you only wanted to give her things that mattered A LOT b/c it wasn't worth it to you otherwise.

I'm just throwing out ideas.

I wish I had treated her requests as warnings, but I didn't have the experience/knowledge to know to do that. I didn't heed them because I didn't realize the seriousness of them.

You have said this ^^ very often. So, what can you do to learn better listening skills and to pick up on cues?

To me, my wife acted happy. There isn't usually a huge need to improve a happy person's life. Hence the name, "WshIKnw". She did one time say, "if you don't give me such and such attention, then I'll find someone who will". I don't remember what the attention was exactly, but I didn't take that very seriously, because I just thought she would never do that, and she only gave an explicit warning like that, like once.

so even when she DID use words you say you understand, you ignored it and took the risk of "calling her bluff" This just seems like gambling and you lost.

For her to say those words, was a glow in the dark blinking red light WARNING...



So, I just thought she was making an idle threat or being semi-silly, especially when I believe it was over something semi-silly: she wanted to be tucked in bed (which means given some attention for a moment after she laid down, whether it's rub her back, just sit there a moment, read her a story, whatever), and I didn't want to do it that night.


You slept in separate bedrooms right? And she wanted you to come to bed with her...but you refused the type of intimacy that was important to her. Like refusing to have sex, really. To HER, tucking in or just getting a few minutes in the same bed, meant a lot-- it was intimacy any way she could get it, and you denied it to her so it's NOT silly.

she saw the porn as a cause of your lessened libido, so her social needs were not met, her intimacy and physical needs were not met fully at least, and I don't know what else to say.

You minimize your mistakes and her needs, and those 2 habits are the chronic problems that keep you stuck in place. Her needs were ignored for the most part, and you keep saying it's a "misunderstanding" & I want you to see that it's a calculated risk you took repeatedly.

She actually came out and pleaded for some basic physicality in the marriage and you said no. Because you
"didn't want to do it that night" I don't want to kick you when you are down but you must learn to see that this^^^ is her being clear and you ---- being ??.

Saying it was a silly or stupid request/need WARNING - is again minimizing her needs over yours. And it shows that even her warnings were ignored.

Can you admit a mistake without then justifying it? I'm asking, b/c if you cannot, that itself is an issue to work on'

maybe in your job you cannot admit any error,

but in real life we all make them AND we do Not learn from the mistakes if we always justify them

b/c then we are not really admitting a mistake, just simply saying we'd do the same thing in the same circumenstance...which is what your w probably fears...




It seems so stupid that this is the kind of thing that I lost my wife over. Everytime I hear stories about women leaving men, in real life, it keeps being over really serious things, like the man cheated, or wouldn't make a living.

there are far more complicated reasons and I don't think your w's complaints were stupid.
I think that you are AGAIN minimizing your role and blaming her for Over reacting and no matter how many times I or others point this out, you remain unmoved.
Unchanged...unseeing.

She wanted other people in your lives b/c you are a quiet man who likes to stay home and that made you her exclusive human interaction...

I think she felt hurt repeatedly by your relative low desire for her, which she knew you were getting your needs met with porn, so her needs were...NOT met and that is no small thing

You kept at the porn and didn't ML more, even though she complained about it and she said that you hurt her feelings about her body.

And you didn't sleep in the same bed - which bothered her and she made her feelings known....and you would not even cuddle or tuck her in

which would be so easy for you, but you "didn't feel like it" and that was after she said she'd find someone who would, if you could not do this one tiny important thing for her which would be a drop in the bucket of all the other things missing

her request sounds like a cry out to the world, so desperate, & your response sounds really self absorbed b/c that was a blinking red light of "I NEED TOUCH FROM YOU"


it's not a stupid reason to want out of the m, it's a desperate cry for help.


And I think back to how I did none of the serious usual deal breakers. And now, it's like "Man, my wife wanted so little out of me. Those things would have been so easy to do more of, without fussing, compared to losing her. Had I just given another 10% or 20% in all those little things she complained about, that would have probably been all she needed." And I would have done that, had I understood how much she needed or desired these things, before it was too late. Love wasted on the young and ignorant.

My suggestion to you, again, is to work on the things you know are valid b/c in the event she turns your way again, you'll be more like the man she hoped for.

I feel like the vast majority of her complaints are resolved simply by me realizing how much she needed those things, and by being reminded of just how important she is to me, how easy it is to lose her, and how she and I are not the same. She has different needs, that must be met, and a different love language that I must "speak". And there are a lot of things that I can't change without her around, like everything dealing with her not getting enough of any given sort of attention from me. There were a few things that partly had to do with me understanding the seriousness of the situation, but also had to do with overcoming certain problems of mine. Those things aren't just an issue of being woken up, but are an issue of overcoming adversity. I don't think most of her complaints involved that, but probably some of her biggest complaints did.

[Ginger1]

I think we have been telling you in many different ways by many different people that you calculated the risk vs. benefit when dealing with your wife and her needs.

These were decisions you should have been making out of love. Not because of detailed warnings that come with consequences. I mean, the woman was asking for some basic things in a partnership. Nothing over the top at all.

I will say for me, but I cannot speak for your wife, but if my partner doesn't do those things out of love, but rather out of calculated risk and level of consequence, I would feel unloved and not cared for as a wife should. Love is a choice we make every day.

I love the sport of hockey. I loved attending hockey games. My ex disliked hockey. He could have made me the happiest woman in the world by attending one game with me. he refused. I hate football. I would sit by his side, watch games, and if he wanted me to attend a game with him, I would be supportive and in good spirits. Why? because I loved HIM. Didn't matter if I didn't like football so much. I loved him. I didn't have to calculate anything.

I hope that example helps a little.

[sandi2]

How are things going?

[WshIKnw]

Hey, Sandy. Thanks for asking.

After some pursuing on my part (writing sweet things to my wife, or at least things that I hoped were sweet), my wife started talking to me again. Three Sundays ago (end of April), she wanted to meet with me. We spent about 3 hours together. We met for lunch. Something funny happened during this time. An old man by himself kept talking to us, asking whether she was my wife, telling me I had a beautiful wife, saying he was wondering why she wasn't wearing a ring, talking about things he wished he'd done differently in his marriage, etc. It was pretty comical because things have been a little tense between my wife and I. After I finished eating, she said, "Are you ready for some closure?" and I said, "What kind of closure? You know what kind of closure I want." She wanted to discuss the separation agreement and come to an agreement. I thought it would go better if we walked at a park and talked about it there. I thought we would both feel more comfortable than in a busy restaurant. We spent probably the first hour at the park talking "business" -- separation and legal stuff. In the last hour or so, she started to warm up, and I could see my actual wife "in there". She was saying things that made it sound like she was thinking about the possibility of a future with me (like wanting to know what my family thought about the idea of us getting back together), she was getting emotional, I was a little emotional, we were exchanging kind, loving words. I got a sense that there was a little bit of a "flame" there -- a chance.

On Tuesday, I tried to get her to join me for a free beginner's ballroom dancing class. She said she was having dinner with a friend, and might join me, but would not rush the friend out the door. W did not come in time to dance, but I did see her and her friend walk by and look at me, through the window. I later invited her to see a love story at the movie theater on Friday night. It was the exact kind of movie that she loves (the new Beauty and the Beast). She was wishy-washy about coming. I told her I would be there, and it wasn't a big deal if she didn't come. She came, and we were both early. We talked together until the movie started, and things were quite friendly. During the movie, she was sighing a lot. So, I was concerned that she wasn't enjoying herself. She was "exchanging looks" with me a lot during the movie, and at one point, when Belle leaves the Beast, and the Beast acted like he would never see her again, my wife looked at my sadly, and I wondered whether it made her think of how I felt when she left. It sure made me think of that.

To make a long story short, after the movie, we had dinner together, she was extremely flirty and seductive, and we went back to my (the marital) home and had a "lovely time". I then took her back to her car at the theater. The next morning, she wanted to go on a hike with me, with our/her dog. After we did that, we got lunch and went to a park and sat at the water and talked for a few hours. She was being herself all throughout this weekend. We both then went home to our own places to take naps. I then later invited her to dinner, and she came. She always dressed up nicely and put on makeup each time she saw me over the weekend. She said she could go for "it" again. So, we went back to the marital house again, and then I took her home. After Friday night, she talked about how she felt foolish about what we did, and after Saturday night, she said the same thing again. So, that's pretty interesting that she felt foolish about it, but did it again anyway Saturday night. On Saturday night, she said she wouldn't probably see me on Sunday.

On Sunday morning, she sent me a sad email where she shared with me a poem that she had written when we were together where she talked about how jealous she was of other couples that did things together that I wasn't doing with her, like coming home from work early enough to often go on walks together in the afternoon. She asked why did she need me so much in her life, when clearly I didn't need her. I told her I cried a little when I read it and told her that maybe I should have been reading her journals, so that I would have the complete picture of how she felt inside. I told her I was very sorry that she felt so unloved, and that I was a neglectful husband. "I don't want you to ever feel that way again, and I'm so sorry that you did for so long. I don't know why I thought things were fine." I then sent her another email and asked to to listen to Reb Bradley's Unraveling the Mysteries of the Female Mind (http://www.ultimatehusband.com/main.htm). I told her that I thought that talk really nailed the dynamics of our marriage, that the talk is mostly about the typical differences between men and women, and that he lays out what men should be doing differently, than what comes natural to them. She said she listened to 80% to 90% of it before deciding that he was just recapping. I don't remember whether she commented on it.

She later decided to join me for church. That was really great, because I had been for many weeks by myself, and I missed her so much when I was there without her. The service had an Amazing Grace forgiveness theme. ("Amazing grace how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost but now I'm found. Was blind but now I see.") I felt like it was speaking to us a lot. When we exited, I let her lead the way, whether to avoid walking past the preacher or not. She asked which way I usually go. I told her, by the preacher. So, that's the way we went. We both shook his hand. He said, "Verrry nice to see you, W." She later asked whether I talked to him, and I told her that he had asked where she was one Sunday. I told him that I didn't know. And he said to call him. So, I did.

We then went and had lunch together, and then went to another park and walked around for a few hours together. While at the park, I took her hand twice, while she was stumbling on tree seed pods. Probably the first time since December that I had held her hand. We then went back to the church to take her to her car. Then we went our separate ways, and only spoke very little the rest of the night. Over that weekend, she talked a lot about getting back together, how she would want things to change if we did, and how we both wanted to take it slow and not have her move back in any time soon.

Monday, she called me while I was at work to tell me about a health problem of hers. Tuesday, she called me while I was at work to talk to me about going to cooking classes together. I asked her whether it was more for us to learn or for us to have fun. She said to have fun. Wednesday, we talked in the morning about something through text (I don't have my phone with me at the moment). But it was very friendly and felt warm and loving. After my ballroom dancing class Wednesday night (which I haven't been able to get her to go to yet -- I'm still on last week, just so we're clear), she wanted me to call her because I was supposed to replace one of her headlights that night. I called her and immediately noticed that she might be in a mood, with the way she said "hello". Turns out that she was, because I got out only about 4 or 5 sentences responding to things she was saying, before she said that she kind of hated talking to me, and it was just like old times, with her having to be "ultra specific" about everything she said, because I apparently like to be 100% sure what people are saying and what they mean, rather than having to infer things. She said she didn't really want to get together, but wanted to give me a chance to fulfill what I said I would do, and let me fix her headlight. For some reason, the "stranger" was back.

We decided to meet at the house. I'd get the bulb and she would get the food. When she arrived, she was much nicer, and we had a nice time replacing the bulb together. We then went into the house to eat (dog was with her). All I can remember at the moment from that night, was that she was no longer the sweet, loving wife that seemed so interested in the possibility of getting back together. But she was was the alien again, now saying things like, "are you sure it's not that you want me just because you don't want to date, or because you don't think you can do any better than me?" She was back to suggesting that we not be together, basically. I don't know what changed.

Thursday, she messaged me in the morning, and asked me to give her a list of several things that we could do together on the weekend. I think this was also when she added, "and ask your friend for some tips on how to woo a woman", which was a typical alien insulting thing to say. I gave her a list. She then said, "now pick one of the shorter things on that list". I asked her to eliminate some, and she chose to go watch the sunrise together, which I don't think we had ever done together, because I was usually not up at sunrise in the past.

We talked about going to do crafts on Friday night, and I said I would be at a restaurant for dinner, since I had some nice coupons to use there, where she was welcome to join me. She never agreed to go. I went there to have dinner. After 5 or 10 minutes of her not being there, I texted to tell her I wasn't clear whether we were on for crafts. She said she was running late, and had already eaten dinner. She arrived looking madeup nicely, and about 30 minutes late, which was okay, because she never agreed to have dinner with me. That went quite well. I think it was then that we drove around and she told me how miserable she was and how she shouldn't have came, and how boring I was. We went and got her some icecream. Later, we went back to the house to watch Netflix or something, and she was very sleepy and didn't talk much. She went to sleep. I was being very nice to her, rubbing her feet and her back, and she was acting like she enjoyed it. She later woke up complaining of feeling really bad and wanted me to take her back to her car, at the restaurant. On the way, she was super mean to me, talked about what a mistake it was to hang out with me, how being around me was miserable, and so forth. When I put her out, she didn't say anything as she got out of my car. She just shut my car's door. After about 10 minutes, she called and apologized several times, and said I didn't deserve that. She said she just didn't feel good. She said she probably shouldn't have had the beer with some medication that she was taking for a small health issue. The medication said to not have it with alcohol. So, I attributed some of this to her feeling bad. And that was very non-alien like of her to call and apologize a few minutes after having a fit. The real, sweet wife would have always done that, pretty much. When she called, she said she wouldn't likely be on for the sunrise watching, but she might be on for breakfast.

On Saturday morning, we had breakfast together, and things were a little bit standoffish with her, but she did get me to hold her hand a little. We then walked around stores, and as we did that, she warmed up. She asked whether I would buy her some fairly expensive pillows (probably just seeing what I would say). I said, "I will if you continue hanging out with me for several days and continue being nice." She later saw paint by stickers books and said she really liked them and suggested that my (our) nephew would like that for his birthday. I said I would buy her one of those books, as they weren't very expensive. We later took the book home, and worked on one of the pages in the book. We both enjoyed it, and she talked about really enjoying it a lot, and really turned into my old wife. She talked about how much she liked doing very low pressure stuff like that with me, and a very warm exchange was had between us, where it felt like we could be very honest with each other. A lot of hugging and kissing happened then. We then went and watched one of her favorite shows on Netflix, and she got very kissy with me. Then she was supposed to go hang out with a girlfriend that was coming to town to see her. So, I took her back to her car. She said she would miss me and didn't seem to want to leave me, but had a prior arrangement to hang out with her friend. I didn't see her the rest of the night, but I think I talked to her some later that night. On Sunday, she sent me a funny video at 4 something in the morning (which is odd for her to be up at that hour), and then later went back to sleep. She woke up too late to join me for church. I went alone. We were about to go to lunch together, but she called and said she had a [minor health problem, assuming nothing serious underlying] and needed to go to urgent care. I asked whether I could sit with her, and she was happy to have me go with her. It was very nice getting to play such a strong role of husband again. She was glad to have me with her. We then went to lunch together. There, she told me that all she ever wanted from me was for me to love her, and teared up. I told her that I always loved her. I just didn't always show it as well as I should have. And I told her that throughout all of this (breakup and such), I thought that was all she needed from me. We held hands some across the table. It was a nice lunch with her. I believe she was then very tired, and so she took me back to my car and she went home to nap. Not sure what else happened between us Sunday night. I think she called me that night, like twice -- once because she couldn't sleep. She refused my offer to read her some stories, which is something she used to always want.

On Monday (yesterday) morning, she said she didn't feel good. She was staying home from work. I offered to stay the day with her and keep her company. I offered to take her food, since she didn't have much to eat. But she doesn't want me to know where she lives and/or be in her house. So, she declined all of it, though she did want those things. I suggested that she should talk to our pastor, because he is very calm, compassionate, and non-judgmental -- that he would help her to feel better. I told her that I had a very nice time talking to him. She said she appreciated the suggestion, and that she had also thought of talking to him. She later called me while I was at work, which was the first time I have gotten a call from her at work, since like at least December. She was upset because one of her problems had worsened and it was scaring her. She then talked to her doctor and called me back to tell me that the doctor said she was okay, and not to worry. She then got much better throughout the day. She called me in the afternoon, and I then called her back, once I saw her call as I was leaving work, going to the dance class. She sounded really happy and good. I said I was going to dance class. She said she was going to class, too. And I said, "oh yeah? what class?" She was going to a shooting class for women. Her class ended up being canceled but she had a nice evening. She probably hung out with her girl friend. We spoke a little through text in the evening.

This morning (Tuesday), I texted her to tell her that I would love to go on a walk with her and the dog this evening. She said she was supposed to have dinner with her girlfriend tonight. She said maybe another time. She didn't tell me when would be a good time. I had to ask her what evenings she didn't have plans. I said "okay, how about we have dinner and go on a walk Friday night?" She said she thought she would enjoy it, but felt anxious about it. So, instead of saying "no", she would say that she would think about it. I said, "Sounds good. I'm curious why you feel anxious about it." She said, "I don't know. That's something I want to find out. Talk to you later." She then asked me whether I would ask my counselor to give her a recommendation of who she could see for individual counseling. I asked her to talk to my counselor herself, in case the counselor had any questions to ask W, before making a recommendation. It's interesting that W doesn't want to talk to my counselor, probably because she is my counselor. W said she might contact my counselor and talk to her. W then sent me an email about a TV show that she likes, and that's where I am now.

So, I'm trying to figure out why she is so "hot and cold". I bet you know a lot about that, Sandi. I have an appointment to talk to DB coach, Chuck, on Thursday night. It's like she's about the same as she was in December, when she was on her way out the door, after dropping the "I'm not sure I want to be with you anymore" bomb, except now she's talking about coming back, rather than talking about leaving. I'm just taking it slowly with her, and not counting any eggs before they are hatched.

[25yearsmlc]

You have frequently complained that she was NOT clear with you about her needs - see your screen name --
but here (below) she was guiding you & pointing out a way for you to learn more...b/c maybe she's tired of dragging you along to help...


"and ask your friend for some tips on how to woo a woman", which was a typical alien insulting thing to say.

how is this^^ insulting, given your history??

I gave her a list. She then said, "now pick one of the shorter things on that list". I asked her to eliminate some,



Am I reading that^^^ right??

You had a wonderful chance to show consistent change...

So many LBSers would love that chance

there's more, but I'm just sad for both of you.

SO MUCH of your post had a million hopeful signs and opportunities for you...

[25yearsmlc]

you have a shot at this Wish

remember how you felt a month ago...

and how you said you'd do whatever it took to be the man you want to be and the h she deserves.

I'm reprinting a letter from a WAW here -


FROM A WAW TO A LBS HUSBAND. (not her own LBS h...but one who changed & improved for 6 months, & wants to know why his WAW won't return to him, and how she can still be at all interested in OM)

When I read your interactions with your wife, I could so easily identify with your wife's feelings/words/sentiments. I have been in her position in my M. I was the ignored, the devalued, the neglected one who was treated as less than his other many interests or hobbies or jobs.-

One of the things that I have tried my hardest not to do, is not to engage with another man. Not just because of my marriage vows, but because I knew that when I truly engaged in any type of R with another man, it would make it that much harder to ever reconcile with my H.

Because being treated differently (better) than the way he treated me would lessen him so much in my eyes. So, I can see where your W is coming from.

When you've been mistreated to the point where you actually let go of your R enough to let another person into your heart, or bed or whatever, it takes a boatload of work to get back on a page where you're recommitted to even think of being with your S - and those uncertainties that she's expressed to you, I don't know if you truly, truly fathom how deep they run.

Six months of getting back on a page where you treat her the way that any wife should be treated, does not even scratch the surface of the years, the intrinsic devaluing that occurs when you're systematically mistreated for such a stretch of time.

And I promise you that while you have recommitted and worked for 6 months, your W has simply been trying to get to a point where she can even buy into the changes, where she can even think that you might have changed and not scoff at the thought.

Because when you build up hope again and again and again in your H and he crushes it again and again and again, you develop a thick skin, a protective doubt, a conditioned response to even the slightest, grainiest seed of hope. You are taught that when you hope, you will be disappointed. When you try, you will fail. You are taught that you will never be what he wants - and it is hard to shake what you have come to believe is reality.

And for the changes that you've made to have come only when she walked away and OM became competition, I can definitely see how she can doubly doubt that you truly want to be in a M with her, and not just to "win".

Even you today say that you are not sure that you don't just want to "win".

Step 1 - figure that sh!t out ASAP. Because if you actually do manage to convince her that you really do want her - and really have recommitted to her, and you actually just want to win, you'll put her through hell.
_______________________

[25yearsmlc]

another piece from your post...


On Saturday morning, we had breakfast together, and things were a little bit standoffish with her, but she did get me to hold her hand a little. We then walked around stores, and as we did that, she warmed up. She asked whether I would buy her some fairly expensive pillows (probably just seeing what I would say). I said, "I will if you continue hanging out with me for several days and continue being nice."

Wish, this ^^^ is the way you got here in the first place. You calculate a risk and then

decide if it's worth it to you. Incredibly manipulative and controlling and COLD

Try loving and being giving to her...without a quid pro quo or control. Just because you love her and without expectation of payback...



She later saw paint by stickers books and said she really liked them and suggested that my (our) nephew would like that for his birthday. I said I would buy her one of those books, as they weren't very expensive.





my new ^^record of