So Confused and Conflicted (7)

[25yearsmlc]

a whole lot of LBSers who do reconcile don't return here to keep us posted.

They have moved on from the painful ordeal to heal, and for many, it'd be like returning to a cancer support group after being in remission and declared cancer free.

So it's extremely hard to generalize objectively. There's no control group.

I know 3 DB reconciled couples, and the LBSers never came back here to report.

[Vanilla]

There is also sense in which certain treatments and interactions including therapy and IC/MC create dynamics which asist wayward behaviour escalate.

Firstly it can validate poor behaviour. At least some of the responsibility becomes reflected back on the non wayward.

Secondly CBT and NLP help waywards learn better coping and protective techniques. They make better decisions with deception and covering their tracks. They learn new strategies.

Thirdly they point to the fact they were present as 'trying' and failing. And blaming.

Finally it can be a way of getting out of an R and blaming to get the biggest slice of the pie. For example deferring D or triggering the LBS. For example moving to a jurisdiction more favourable to their position on D then filing in that jurisdiction.

The most important aspect is to know that which is best for you, and to work on you. When people get to wanting out then they look after their interests and that should be considered. Waywards can be cruel and haphazard, they can also run and hide. They can also be brazen and bragging. There are all sorts. Showing your hand and having your heart on your sleeve makes you more vulnerable in some sitches.

I believe in Intel not perception. Know the facts, the law and youR rights and stand by them. Particularly important with regard to children.

There are also situations where being unfriendly and using LRT is just more of the same. Ignoring further a non wayward who feels neglected isn't going to help.

I think it's important to know if your spouse is wayward. We are not the thought police so that requires INTEL. Most people are poor at understanding deception.

A spouse who is done and S who has a bf or gf isn't wayward they are simply moving on. They are done. Especially if D papers are filed.

A spouse who chases, seduces or is being seduced, on dating sites etc having a PA or even an EA, or looking for one is wayward. This can apply even if the OP is unaware or uninterested or even non existant. This deception can put the non waywards sexual and physical health at risk.

Many M are as in DB just jaded and require great work, DB is amazing for those sitches. Truly most R even friendships have phases of closeness and distance. DB helps us learn and grow to be better partners. I confess I read both books on average once a month. When my time for a new R arises I trust I can be much better as a partner.

My M did not repair, in fact applying DB made my sitch worse. The stronger I got the more I was subjected to abuse. Very confusing at the time, not now though. I am still glad to have applied DB, do that which works, when nothing worked or could work for my M, DB worked for me.

Those are my thoughts

V

[WshIKnw]

A spouse who is done and S who has a bf or gf isn't wayward they are simply moving on. They are done. Especially if D papers are filed.

What about a spouse who left a marriage where there was still a lot of love between the two spouses, because the spouse met someone they thought was better, but the person they met is a dead-end road -- a fantasy life, of turmoil? (Two cheaters paired up together, a relationship with a co-worker, the guy has a wife, that doesn't seem to have much income, and four kids, and is Mormon, though the WAW isn't.) Isn't this spouse a wayward even after she left and sought complete separation? She has all the characteristics of a wayward, for the most part, I think.

[25yearsmlc]

V

I don't think "DB made your situation worse",

or it'd be like telling a battered wife that putting her arms up to keep her face protected is "making it worse."

You got healthier, and that escalated things till you saved yourself.

That's how I see it anyhow

[25yearsmlc]

A spouse who is done and S who has a bf or gf isn't wayward they are simply moving on. They are done. Especially if D papers are filed.

What about a spouse who left a marriage where there was still a lot of love between the two spouses, because the spouse met someone they thought was better, but the person they met is a dead-end road -- a fantasy life, of turmoil? (Two cheaters paired up together, a relationship with a co-worker, the guy has a wife, that doesn't seem to have much income, and four kids, and is Mormon, though the WAW isn't.) Isn't this spouse a wayward even after she left and sought complete separation? She has all the characteristics of a wayward, for the most part, I think.

I know that definitions and labels seem helpful b/c we want to believe the WAS will regret and or return to us. We want to know what the barometers are to let us know...

Of course. That's natural. The downside is when it continues to deflect from our personal work, especially on things the WAS did identify as problems for them, in us.

You know your history and you know the warnings your w gave you that you - for whatever reason - did not heed.

My suggestion to you, again, is to work on the things you know are valid b/c in the event she turns your way again, you'll be more like the man she hoped for.

I don't see this as risky to you. My question is whether the only reason you resist making those changes, is b/c you only want to do them if you know your w will return?

See, that's tactical, it's not authentic change and she would feel, and so would I, that the "changes" would not last b/c you don't want to make them and you don't think you should, unless there's a payoff guaranteed.

Sadly, there are no guarantees in any of this. Ever. We just have to give love as best we can as long as we can.

it's not about the love we get back; it's about how deeply and fully we give love.

[Vanilla]

A spouse who is done and S who has a bf or gf isn't wayward they are simply moving on. They are done. Especially if D papers are filed.

What about a spouse who left a marriage where there was still a lot of love between the two spouses, because the spouse met someone they thought was better, but the person they met is a dead-end road -- a fantasy life, of turmoil? (Two cheaters paired up together, a relationship with a co-worker, the guy has a wife, that doesn't seem to have much income, and four kids, and is Mormon, though the WAW isn't.) Isn't this spouse a wayward even after she left and sought complete separation? She has all the characteristics of a wayward, for the most part, I think.

Yes the thoughts are wayward, they are trolling for another before separation.

Which means there was gaslighting in my view, the LBS has convinced themselves there is still a lot of love.

That's why I think it's unreasonable the action of the wayward because it's script.

V

[Vanilla]

V

I don't think "DB made your situation worse",

or it'd be like telling a battered wife that putting her arms up to keep her face protected is "making it worse."

You got healthier, and that escalated things till you saved yourself.

That's how I see it anyhow

Yes I understand your view. I can't see myself healthier at this stage, more knowledgeable perhaps. The Giggalo ramped up the abuse. I will move any discussion to my thread. Apologies wsh for the hijack.

V

[WshIKnw]

Which means there was gaslighting in my view, the LBS has convinced themselves there is still a lot of love.

Do you think that my belief that my wife still has a lot of love for me (or at least did right before she switched over to the OM) is a false belief?

That's why I think it's unreasonable the action of the wayward because it's script.

Sorry. I don't understand this sentence. Can you elaborate on that?

[25yearsmlc]

my question for you Wsh, is not meant to offend but to get you to dig deep and probe

Which means there was gaslighting in my view, the LBS has convinced themselves there is still a lot of love.

Do you think that my belief that my wife still has a lot of love for me (or at least did right before she switched over to the OM) is a false belief?


No one "knows" the answer to this^^ question so it's all guesswork.

But what difference does this^^ make to your course of action, now?

Because You have your own work in your sandbox that you (usually) agree is real.

So if she retains some love for you and looks back to check on how you are doing

either b/c she's just a kind woman who once loved you

AND OR b/c she's curious to see if you have changed

why not present the best self you can? it's work you agree you want to do anyhow, right?

OR If she never looks back to see how you're doing,

wouldn't you want to do what you need to do to become a happier more fulfilled man, anyway?

See, the course of action for you is the same, regardless.

That's why I think it's unreasonable the action of the wayward because it's script.

[WshIKnw]

Of course. That's natural. The downside is when it continues to deflect from our personal work, especially on things the WAS did identify as problems for them, in us.

25, I know of some things I need to work harder to change, but can you tell me what you think I need to change?

You know your history and you know the warnings your w gave you that you - for whatever reason - did not heed.

I don't agree that my wife gave warnings about breaking up. In my opinion, she gave requests, not warnings. A warning, to me, would be "if you don't do X, Y will be the consequence" or "I need X in my life" or "I can't live this way". I wish I had treated her requests as warnings, but I didn't have the experience/knowledge to know to do that. I didn't heed them because I didn't realize the seriousness of them. To me, my wife acted happy. There isn't usually a huge need to improve a happy person's life. Hence the name, "WshIKnw". She did one time say, "if you don't give me such and such attention, then I'll find someone who will". I don't remember what the attention was exactly, but I didn't take that very seriously, because I just thought she would never do that, and she only gave an explicit warning like that, like once. So, I just thought she was making an idle threat or being semi-silly, especially when I believe it was over something semi-silly: she wanted to be tucked in bed (which means given some attention for a moment after she laid down, whether it's rub her back, just sit there a moment, read her a story, whatever), and I didn't want to do it that night. It seems so stupid that this is the kind of thing that I lost my wife over. Everytime I hear stories about women leaving men, in real life, it keeps being over really serious things, like the man cheated, or wouldn't make a living. And I think back to how I did none of the serious usual deal breakers. And now, it's like "Man, my wife wanted so little out of me. Those things would have been so easy to do more of, without fussing, compared to losing her. Had I just given another 10% or 20% in all those little things she complained about, that would have probably been all she needed." And I would have done that, had I understood how much she needed or desired these things, before it was too late. Love wasted on the young and ignorant.

My suggestion to you, again, is to work on the things you know are valid b/c in the event she turns your way again, you'll be more like the man she hoped for.

I feel like the vast majority of her complaints are resolved simply by me realizing how much she needed those things, and by being reminded of just how important she is to me, how easy it is to lose her, and how she and I are not the same. She has different needs, that must be met, and a different love language that I must "speak". And there are a lot of things that I can't change without her around, like everything dealing with her not getting enough of any given sort of attention from me. There were a few things that partly had to do with me understanding the seriousness of the situation, but also had to do with overcoming certain problems of mine. Those things aren't just an issue of being woken up, but are an issue of overcoming adversity. I don't think most of her complaints involved that, but probably some of her biggest complaints did.