So Confused and Conflicted (7)

[giftd]

I just wouldn't always try hard enough, especially later in the marriage, as I felt more and more secure in the marriage, with each passing year.

One thing I learned about myself is that I became content with what I had and the status quo. This isn't a bad thing necessarily, but marriage and relationships aren't static, they constantly change. I missed some changes and therefore missed some needs. This doesn't mean my wife is without her own set of problems that she needs to deal with, but I can't control those.

Take a real look back over the marriage and see how it changed over time. There are always signs that you missed. Focus on what you missed and why, then work on how to notice in the future. This usually meant being more active in listening for me, not formulating a response while she is talking. Most people aren't able to tell you exactly how they feel if asked but their actions and tone say a lot.

Men are from Mars, I Love You But I'm Not In Love With You, 5 Love Languages, Hold Me Tight were all books that helped me a lot (still working). There's a link on here somewhere for more resources. Try to keep your beginners mind when reading these books and this thread, even if you don't end up agreeing there's usually something you can take from it.

[sandi2]

Sounds like the situation with my wife, unfortunately. How the heck did I last so long with her, with the way everyone here is telling me I was such an idiot?

My first thought is that she loved you very much.

For example, at the time, I saw sitting around with the husbands or her friends making small talk as a waste of time. I wanted to be at home working on my hobbies, instead, or doing something else that seemed like time better spent. Now, I don't see it that way. I don't want all my eggs in her basket. I have seen what a risk that is and all the pain that comes when she is all of a sudden gone.

I hope I won't sound unkindly when I ask if you notice any selfishness in the above quote? What about her wants? Can you try to see how she wanted & needed the two of you (as a couple) socializing with other couples? I wonder how many times she felt bored and lonely when you were ignoring her and choosing the computer or your hobbies over quality time with her? Here's the thing.........if you don't see this now, and learn from it......then you repeat the same mistakes again in whatever relationship you have.

Even by saying you don't want all your eggs in her basket, has a selfish tone, IMHO. Yes, we encourage you to GAL and mix with other male friends...........but the way you said this statement, it's like you are still thinking about your feelings. Maybe you could take a communication class........or maybe I should?

When I say "sacrifice", I mean any of kind of giving or loss on my part, from the smallest thing to the largest thing

Maybe I'm not understanding you.......but as I see this ^^^^^^^^^^, I am asking if this is not what people do in a loving relationship........giving of themselves?

I'd come home from work, I would spend all that time with her until she went to bed, around 9 or 10, and then I would stay up until about 12 or 1 doing my hobbies.

My H's hobby was watching TV. It always took priority over me, at least that's how I felt. He would not go to bed with me. When we had sex, he would immediately get back up and watch more TV. He complained about us not having enough sex. But guess what? For years I told him that I needed time with him in bed, having pillow talk or cuddling. He would say he didn't like going to bed that early (10:00). So, he usually fell asleep on the couch watching TV. I also suggested he could return to his TV, once I had a little time with him. He never "heard" what I was saying. I plainly told him many times how I needed the emotional intimacy in order to want the sex. So, how do you think it made me feel to know he could not "sacrifice" a few minutes of TV to be with me in bed?

You guys are making me out to be worse, I think, than I was. I do know I made a lot of mistakes

.

Well, if I am guilty, then I apologize. I don't mean to make you sound worse. I am trying to help you see areas for growth.

Yeah, I definitely need to read more books on the differences of men and woman. I've got Men Are From Mars, and Brain Sex, that I will definitely read. And I've read enough of The 5 Love Languages to get the gist of it, but I will finish reading that. I forgot that just because I receive love primarily through physical touch, my wife doesn't necessarily receive love as much that way. She doesn't. She is about quality time and services. I have studied a lot of material from a guy named Reb Bradley, as well, about how to be the "ultimate" husband. I found his material very insightful. I also have great books on being an attractive man (mostly personality-wise). I started re-reading those. Are these the types of skills you are referring to, Sandi?

Reading these books, is getting the information you need. Applying what you learn will become skills. Yes, these are good sources! I encourage you to discipline yourself to study them, and don't skim over the content. It seems you need a lot of information about men-women relationships and the differences in the two genders.

I've seen you mention cards she'd give you and how you thought it meant things were fine, and you seriously believed the printed verses in the cards. Have you noticed that all these type of store-bought cards are written with flowery words of love? I don't understand your decisions to not seriously take her verbal requests, but yet, you get "confused" about how a card is worded. Maybe that's just me.

[WshIKnw]

I'm going to respond with more, but I just realized how it's funny how it's almost all ladies that criticize how I was in the marriage, and it's mostly the men pushing me to not be wimpy and to GAL. I think men understand more why I made the mistakes that I made in the marriage. And women understand better my wife's point of view. This is good, though. Helps me to learn her point of view, which I definitely need to understand better. What's crazy is how I thought I was doing fine all those years. My wife's cards and notes telling me I was doing fine didn't help in my misperception. As I said a few posts back, last year's Valentine's Day card from her said "You're all that I ever hoped for in a husband." And she underlined the words "all", "hoped for" and "husband". I assume that I wasn't a wonderful husband/boyfriend for nine years, that all of a sudden turned into a terrible husband some time in the final 9 months before BD, because I don't see how I significantly changed during those final 9 months. And the words that she wrote, herself, in the anniversary card she gave me a few weeks before BD indicated that she was still very happy with me. Would have been nice had she been consistent with her words. Either I need to improve or I don't. Let's make up our mind.

[25yearsmlc]

(deep breath...)

I gave you a huge list of GAL activities, remember? I'm a woman. So how's that figure into your equation?

LITB is a man and he said you were resisting suggestions to change your viewpoint, and you are resisting them. You only hear the "please change" feedback from women, and it seems to come across to you as nagging and complaining...so you dismiss it or ignore it.

Maybe that's how you treated your wife's feedback, you are literally STILL blaming her.

I think your dismissive attitude towards feedback from women Is revealing.
I just feel as if You tune us out.

When you say people here are telling you that you were a "jerk or idiot as a h" -- I looked to see where those words were used but I could not find them

No one said that...

Can you see that how you spin feedback you don't like, could be incredibly harmful to the communication you so stridently complain of?

In other words, even if she had written it all down in a card, you might well have dismissed it as "just her complaining" - b/c she stayed.


I hope you'll someday look at why you handle feedback from women,

so differently than feedback from men

even when it is so similar.

[WshIKnw]

I must be autistic or something because I can't believe the words that I wrote in the last post caused that much frustration and/or offense that I seemed to cause you to feel. Please believe me when I say that was not my intent. And I'm sorry if it did indeed have that effect on you.

I'm going to respond to things you said, individually, not to argue with you, but to try to tone down your negative interpretation of things I said, because I think you're misinterpreting me.

I gave you a huge list of GAL activities, remember? I'm a woman. So how's that figure into your equation?

You did. You are right. Maybe my observation is wrong, but it just seemed like the women responding here were the ones busting my chops the most about how I treated my wife. I just thought it was a funny and interesting observation, though it might be an entirely incorrect observation. I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers.

You talked about me blaming my wife. I'm not just blaming my wife. I blame myself all the time. I beat myself up constantly, whether I write it here each day or not. I'm not sure why some of you seem to think I just blame her. No, as I've said several times here, I blame myself almost entirely for putting her into a vulnerable position -- for not affair-proofing my wife. But I do blame her for confusing me some about how well I was doing, for not giving me the kind of warnings and feedback that I would understand, for not being willing to give me a second chance after I finally understood the danger our marriage was in, and I completely blame her for making the choice to allow herself to fall for another guy, and for never telling me anything about her developing feelings for him, and for pursuing a relationship with him, rather than trying to do something for our marriage, like marriage counseling, and rather than separating herself from this threat to our marriage.

I don't see myself as dismissing anything anyone has told me here, and I'm very sorry anyone feels dismissed.

I meant that somewhat in jest, when I said that people here regard me as an idiot or jerk. I don't think anyone has explicitly used those words. I think it would probably help a lot if you could see my non-verbal communications with the text that I write. I don't know. I'm so surprised by how often I seem to make people mad here.

You said I spin feedback I don't like. The only feedback that I've gotten from anyone that I didn't like, was feedback that I thought was harsh or pessimistic about my chances with my wife. And I can currently only think of one person that has said much of that kind of thing. Aside from that, the only feedback I don't like is when people act irritated or offended by me. And I don't like that because I'm sad that I'm having that effect on people here, especially when I write things that I think are completely innocuous.

[LITB]

Let's keep it simple.

Given all of the advice that has been given to you, what is different about you today than when you arrived here?

I'm curious what you do for a living if you don't mind me asking. I'd like to know how you interact with co-workers.

[LITB]

You can dissect your sitch all day long. If you don't make changes, the chances of reconciliation will be unlikely. Again, you have amazing advice from both genders. Please, do something with it.

[Dawgs]

You can dissect your sitch all day long. If you don't make changes, the chances of reconciliation will be unlikely. Again, you have amazing advice from both genders. Please, do something with it.

He's been given the advice over, and over, and over, and over and yet still comes back to the same thing. Instead of crying how people on here are harsh, do something about the situation. He needs to prepare for life without her because she's gone.

[WshIKnw]

Given all of the advice that has been given to you, what is different about you today than when you arrived here?

I'm​ not sure, LITB. I understand DB a lot more. I trust it greatly for saving people, but I currently take it with a grain of salt for saving marriages. Since BD, the most obvious change in me is an awakening about the state of my marriage, and how important my wife is to me. I have a huge desire to change in ways that she needed, and to take her requests much more seriously in the future. I reach out to people a whole lot more than I did before. Before, I felt like I pretty much had everything I needed, but now I'm trying hard to build relationships with people. I just approached and talked with a neighbor last night who was very supportive and sympathetic of me, who knew my wife and I quite well, pre-BD. My wife said around the end, that to have a good friend, you have to be a good friend. I can't just sit back and wait for people to contact me. I have to put myself out there. I feel like I'm listening to what people tell me a whole lot more, even though I don't always jump to do exactly as they tell me I should do. I'm trying a whole lot more to stay away from the computer and get out more, but I'm definitely not doing enough of that. I think the hardest thing is trying to make a friend that I can do things with on a regular basis. I'm trying to improve my health and appearance, though lately, motivation has been hard on that front, due to depression. I flew in a plane last week, for an introductory flight for flight school. I would have never done that when I was with my wife. I was very fearful. I'm not sure how else I'm different, LITB.

I'm curious what you do for a living if you don't mind me asking. I'd like to know how you interact with co-workers.

I'm a programmer. I generally get along great with my coworkers, but I tend to be quieter, and wait for people to come to me to talk, usually. So, other coworkers that act the same way I tend not to talk to much, but do have a positive relationship with, mostly. I will sometimes, usually once or twice a week, seek out coworkers to talk to them. I always acknowledge or greet people when passing by. I have pretty much never hung out with any of them outside of work. I don't feel a good connection with a lot of people. I don't feel like I'm good enough for a lot of people. I didn't feel that way with my wife. She made me feel extremely valuable, especially before that last year of our relationship, but even during the last year, as well. And I felt like I got her, like I had a good connection with her. I don't feel like I get a lot of people, especially people my age. I feel like I relate to older people more, but who hangs out with older people? I've been this way since I was a teenager. My wife completely filled this "connection void" in my life. So much in my life was fixed by having her. I feel like I really sabotaged a great thing, without knowing what I was doing.

[Vanilla]

Wsh

It is not ok for you to be treated this way by your WW. It isn't no matter what you think your failings are.

You have been hurt and as a modest shy man that hits at self esteem. Truly it does. You seem to me to be an ordinary H, with ordinary needs and requiring a faithful W.

WW could have taken a different course, could have resolved some issues with you. All sorts of choices. Her behaviour was her choice and is her responsibility.

It is rotten and you deserve better.

I always think that when an LBS is as down as you are then there is likely some trauma behind it. A reason, a source for those feelings and thoughts, some compounded damage, possibly from childhood. Before you go digging deeply into the changes to make, I suggest some extreme self care, some tenderness, some compassion for yourself. I want to say, ok you had some choices, possibly some poor ones. You didn't cheat or lie or treat your WW with disrespect as she treated you. I want to say this is not ok. I want to say that survival is important that you are important. That what you think and feel is important. I want to say that I believe you and am sending you some strength for today, for those moments when it's unbearable.

I want to say those things to you, so I am saying them. I am saying it's ok to go at your own pace and feel what you feel.

Hugs

V