I have not read the book. But the way you summarize it, it seems to be using the language of moral absolutes in a very odd way.
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2) A HD husband must force the LD woman to make a choice, either "WANT" your husband or divorce. She must regain her desire. Problems arise when they are not forced to choose.
What does the word "must" mean in this case? Is it immoral to decide that marriage is important enough to do whatever you can even if you aren't getting sex?
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3) Mercy sex, or duty sex, is very bad for the relationship. Any man that will accept this kind of sex does not have self respect and confidence, which then causes the LD woman to lose her desire for the man that is willing to accept crap from her.
This sounds like it's all about the status of the man. The moral absolutes have to do with the male ego, and the most immoral thing you could do is to accept crap from someone.
Quote: 4) The HD man must regain his self repect and confidence bu chosing to not allow himself to reamin in a marriage with a woman that is LD, and to not allow her to give him crap for sex.
So self respect and confidence come from deciding you won't take crap from nobody even if it means wrecking the marriage and the home. I always thought self respect came from doing the right thing even when it's very difficult.
I hope your summary is unfair, or that my reading of your summary is skewed. If not, this doesn't sound like a great book, at least not when it comes to this particular subject.
Given I've only read a small bit about you, I can't say that my guess is anywhere accurate.
You are paralyzed by intimacy and trust.
As you work through this with your H, if you can understand that your 'enemy' is NOT him, but your incredibly honed defense mechanisms, you will understand that you are battling yourself, not him.
Tell him what you are feeling, explain to him what you are battling; talk yourself through your anxiety attacks and overwhelming urges to withdraw. Remember, YOU are the captain of your ship, not your emotions. The defense mechanisms at one time served a very valuable purpose --- your emotional survival. You are through the trauma, but your defense mechanisms don't know that.
You can be AWARE of your feelings of anxiety, panic, etc., and mentally step AROUND them. You do not have to give in to them, but you need to go slowly so they will not shut you down all together.
If you do shut down, don't worry about it. But you really need to tell your H what is up so that if it becomes too much for you, then he doesn't take it personally.
Remove yourself from him without lashing out at him, go into a dark room, collect yourself, and find your center. Then try again.
What he says is that we all must face the 2 choices that are presented and MAKE a choice. Where problems arise is when we duck the choices. So for a LD woman, she must face the 2 choices that she has, and they are "To regain the ability to WANT our spouse" or basically divorce. For the man, his choices are to accept nothing less then her desire or move on and find someone else that will WANT you (divorce). The problem is that so many of us accept a third option, to do nothing or continue the failed tactics that result in nothing.
About the status of the man, yes, we should not accept crap. What I have seen from my own wife and also from what some other LD women have posted before is that their HD husbands are not the confident men they need. When a man gets affirmation in the form of a women that desires him physically, he is extremely confident in ALL phases of his life. But once a HD man is being rejected physically both in lack of sex and lack of affection, it wears down his confidence. This makes him unappealing to the LD women which causes him to get even less sex, and the circle continues. In effect, the women causes the man to become unappealing to herself. The women sees that she can give very little to the man in a physical relationship, and when she sees how easily he is willing to put up with the crap that she is giving him, she loses respect for him. She wants a man that is willing to stand up to her, even about sex.
So us guys need to regain our self respect and confidence. THis means removing thoses things that destroy our confidence, and what hurts a mans self confidence more then a LD women?
I am not sure I agree with everything this guy has written yet, but it does seem to have some truth to it. He seems to be a brilliant analyst. Like I said though, it confuses me when compared to other books I have read.
By the way what is the right thing. I have 3 young kids in a marriage where there is no affection and very liitle sex. If I stay, then the kids will be far better off. There is no violence or anger in the house. But a women that does not desire affection and sex, has absolutly no way to make ANY love bank deposits with me. There is absolutely no point to a marriage to a ND women. Heck, even the Bible says that divorce from a ND woman is OK.
We know that it certainly is not physical touch. She loves to talk, so I would guess that quality time/communication is her primary language. She also grew up poor and in a totally dysfunctional family with no Dad. I think that she may have married me to get financial security. We are not poor, but the securtiy is not always there. She also wishes I were more ambition, meaning I think she wishes I would get more job advancements and make more money. So would this be acts of service? She also wants me to do more with my kids, and she wants to see me do more with other guys.
Corri, You're absolutely right about the intimacy and trust issues. Ironically, being molested didn't affect me sexually; but somehow it affected my ability to trust (at 5 I believed that my parents could not protect me) and to be emotionally vulnerable. I never told my parents (and to be honest, it's not as though I remember whatever happened as if it's a videotape running through my mind--it's just bits and pieces and recurring nightmares), and it's possible that I was told they wouldn't love me or something like that. All I know is that I felt very "bad" and that I was afraid that other people, including my parents, would see the badness and that I was somehow unloveable.
Couple that with my upbringing that a woman should be completely independent and shouldn't be dependent on a man for anything at all (the old feminist way of thinking that essentially says that a woman without a man is like a fish without a bicycle), and you have a recipe for marital disaster.
The sex hasn't been as frequent as it should have been (meaning as frequent as my husband would have liked), and it wasn't until I read TSSM and Michele's interview with the couple where the husband expressed how he felt rejected that I realized how much I hurt my husband that way (in fact, we talked over the weekend and he admitted that he felt rejected). And, this epiphany has led me now to see how unkind and controlling I've been in other ways in our marriage.
Even if you're on the right track, you'll get run over if you just sit there. Will Rogers
To love at all is to be vulnerable. Love anything, and your heart will certainly be wrung and possibly be broken. C. S. Lewis
Quote: What he says is that we all must face the 2 choices that are presented and MAKE a choice. Where problems arise is when we duck the choices. So for a LD woman, she must face the 2 choices that she has, and they are "To regain the ability to WANT our spouse" or basically divorce. For the man, his choices are to accept nothing less then her desire or move on and find someone else that will WANT you (divorce). The problem is that so many of us accept a third option, to do nothing or continue the failed tactics that result in nothing.
So there's only two choices, and the HD man needs to confront the LD woman with these two choices, saying, "this way or else", and measuring it all in terms of sex? I don't buy this. When things are difficult, it's often helpful to try to widen the number of choices, and to pick an approach where *you* can take the initiative.
I really like what Michlynn said about a 6 month trial in which she is trying to do everything she can to show love to her spouse.
Do you know your wife's love languages? Was there ever affection in your marriage? How much affection do you show her, and how does she respond when you do?
In my own marriage, though, I also decided that I had to be really clear about my needs, and not drop the subject. I do tend to be fairly confident, and I am finding the support network here helpful as well.
Quote: About the status of the man, yes, we should not accept crap. What I have seen from my own wife and also from what some other LD women have posted before is that their HD husbands are not the confident men they need.
This does not ring true with me for my own relationship. Confidence is not my problem. Confidence, combined with careful reflection, is very important - but confidence for what? Ultimatums can be an easy way out, and place the blame squarely on the other person. That makes them appealing - particularly when you lack confidence.
Quote: The women sees that she can give very little to the man in a physical relationship, and when she sees how easily he is willing to put up with the crap that she is giving him, she loses respect for him. She wants a man that is willing to stand up to her, even about sex.
I'd be interested in hearing from LD women if they think this approach would work with them. I have read sharings from several LD women that tell what the "Aha" experience was for them, and I don't recall any that seem to quite fit this pattern.
In my own marriage, we have been able to ratch up the visible affection quite a bit in the last few months, though sex is still a hope for the future. And I am finding that affection helps a *lot* in dealing with sex. People around us have been noticing and teasing us about the way we are flirting with each other.
Quote: I am not sure I agree with everything this guy has written yet, but it does seem to have some truth to it. He seems to be a brilliant analyst. Like I said though, it confuses me when compared to other books I have read.
I'm a great believer in empirically-based medicine. Does he offer solid statistical evidence that his approach works?
Quote: By the way what is the right thing. I have 3 young kids in a marriage where there is no affection and very liitle sex. If I stay, then the kids will be far better off. There is no violence or anger in the house. But a women that does not desire affection and sex, has absolutly no way to make ANY love bank deposits with me. There is absolutely no point to a marriage to a ND women.
Is your wife open to working on the marriage at all? What if you had to work on other areas first, before the sex issue could be resolved, would you do that? A marriage without sex is a very odd, difficult thing, and a marriage without affection is worse.
Quote: Heck, even the Bible says that divorce from a ND woman is OK.
The Bible is very clear that marriage is intended to be a sexual relationship, and strongly urges partners not to withhold their bodies from each other. But I'm not familiar with any place in the Bible that says it is OK to divorce your wife if you aren't getting sex. Of course, in the Old Testament, you could put away your wife fairly easily with a certificate of divorce for just about any reason, but Jesus said this was "for your hardness of heart", and the New Testament is much more stringent about marriage.
Then the wife pulled the old bait and switch. For the first four years of my relationship, there was lots of affection and sex everyday. Then the first kid comes along, and my lover was replaced with a mom. The sex drive has declined ever since for 14 more years. I believe that her drop in desire is 75% physical and 25% relational. I could probably come up with a least a dozen contributing factors. No realize that I can have sex with her more often if I ask. I have to take the initiative 100% of the time. We have sex about once every 6-8 weeks now, so we in effect have a sexless marriage by definition. I am not sure what her love languages are, but they definitely are not physical touch. My wife never touches me, never flirts with me, never kisses me (last time was almost a year ago), and never wants sex. She is like the women that Michelle decribes in her book, not only fo many women lose interest in sex, they also avoid affection, since this can lead to sex. Jonathan, you are a lucky man in that your wife still can be affectionate. Mine chooses not to be.
Confidence, how can a guy keep his confidence level up when his wife tells him that she is no attarcted to him, that she hates to kiss him, that she does not care if she ever has sex again. (And I am attractive for a 45 year old guy). I get rejected probably 75% of the times that I try to initiate sex.
My love language is physical touch. The only things that my wife can do to show me love is to have sex or to be affectionate. Anything else that she does is appreciated, but it is not love to me. These other things will not deposit any love in my love bank. My wife wants me around as her companion, not as her lover.
As far as the bible is concerned, I have been doing a fair amount of reading frome christian web sites, and yes, divorce is allowed by the bible (not preferred though) for commiting a sexual sin. What is a sexual sin? Infidelity is one that most people think of. But withholding sex from your spouse is also. Also, if you are a man and you do not meet you wifes needs outside of sex, this is also a sexual sin. So no the question becomes, how much sex does a couple have to have to avoid commiting the sexual sin of withholding sex? That is never really defined. But since I am in a marriage that experts list as being a sexless marriage, I am guessing that my wife is probably commiting a sexual sin. God does not like sexless marriages because he knows that men are weak and their eyes will wander. He gave men an unbelieveable sex drive, so he wants couples to LOVE making love if yiou read the song of solomen. He knows that BOTH spouses will have severe problems if they do not meet each others needs as described in the song. In fact, he bans the withholding of sex by one partner except for times where both parties agree, and even then, only for praising him for short durations.
I got my book today of The Passionate Marriage. Got through chapter 11. I've started into the book from the beginning, too, and I have to say that I think Chpt. 11 is going to make more sense to you if you start at the beginning and work your way up to that. I also think I got something different out of Chpt. 11 than you did.
Anyway, I've got some questions for you, and it's straight up. No hidden agendas here, just try to answer honestly. ASIDE from the sex issues,
Do you trust your wife? Do you believe she is a woman of integrity? Do you believe she possesses an above average amount of intelligence? Do you believe she loves your children as much as you do? Do you believe that her faith in God is as strong as yours?
Okay, try to keep an open mind when I ask you this. Given the answers to your questions, why do you feel you are the only one that can truly work on saving your marriage?
Now you may fire back -- "I've tried to tell her how unhappy I am!! She just won't do anything!!"
I don't doubt you one bit. However, I do not think she understands with absolute clarity just how close she is to losing her marriage, and you are the only one who can do that for her.
I think one of the reasons the W or H is reluctant to tell their spouse of their unhappiness -- or even that they are ready to walk out the door -- is because they do not trust their spouse to STOP them, or to really get serious about working on the marriage. So they stay in a half marriage, hoping the spouse is going to wake up and get real.
I would never advocate saying to your spouse "if you don't start working on this, I'm packing my bags and leaving." That is a threat, and you are not leaving your spouse any room to make a choice.
But I truly think that if you want your spouse to hear you and take you and the situation seriously, you must take yourself seriously. Really answer for yourself where you are on your happiness scale, where you want to be, and have enough respect for your own state of being to say to your loved one, "look. You seem to be okay with the state of our marriage. If that is really the case, then I need to be honest and frank with you. I'm sorry, up until this point I haven't been. I love you with all my heart and I don't want to hurt you or our children. But I can no longer continue in the state we are in. I feel like an emotional and physical prisoner in our own home. There is no trust between us, there is no communication, there is nothing more than an unspoken agreement between you and I to not rock the boat. I don't think divorce is the answer, but neither is staying in this gridlock. I really think you and I need to pull together and seek whatever help we can find to get us out of this.
I don't think the marriage should be MY way, but right now, it is all YOUR way. We need to find a path to OUR way, and I am telling you right now, I will do that with you, and I will do everything in my power to meet you half way.
If you feel you can't do this with me, or if you feel you won't do this with me, I need to know. No one should feel like a prisoner in a marriage. Not me. Not you. And if this is what we are, and if this is how you want to stay, then one of us has to have the courage to end it, for all our sakes. And I am the one willing to do that.
Take a week to think about it, and let me know your answer. If you think you can't decide, or you won't decide, then I will.
Your marriage cannot and will not go anywhere until you are ready to trust your spouse to handle the truth. Now they may not LIKE the truth, but you cannot fix what you are not willing to acknowledge. Look at Glenn's and Pam's exchanges. Neither one of them likes what they are hearing, but at least now they have the TRUTH out on the table. The going may be slow, because it HURTS to see and recognize truth. It takes some time to gain your footing and lose your illusions. But they are on the brink of having an incredible relationship because they are now at least TRUSTING one another to deliver the truth. A person can RESPOND to that.
Look, we are all adults here. You need to grow up and so does your wife. It HURTS to grow up and leave your illusions behind. People hit emotional gridlock for a REASON. And that reason is because it is time for the B.S. to end and start working together, and trusting one another to hold up their end. You do your part, and I'll do mine. But the only way we can do that is if we TRUST one another to deliver truth.
We all know and recognize truth. My H has given quite a bit of his truth, and it f'ing hurts. What he is saying isn't what necessarily hurts, my losing my illusions is what hurts. I have to take a good, long look at myself and OWN my behavior. Until he is willing to speak truth to me, there is nothing challenging my illusion, my false sense of whatever. And until I can rid myself of that false sense of whatever, he and I can go NOWHERE.
I must do the same for him. I have to give him my truth and trust that he can handle it, or he cannot respond to me in an honest fashion. Withholding truth and trust is either my weakness or his, depending on who is withholding. It is an attempt to hold the other prisoner by keeping THEM stuck in YOUR illusion. It is the ULTIMATE power play. Do you see?
Remember, CeMar. You cannot fix what neither one of you is willing to acknowledge. You don't trust your wife to hold up her end of the marriage. She uses your lack of trust in communicating your truth as a means of holding you prisoner.
If you love your wife, if you love yourself, and you want to save your marriage, you are going to have to get real and honest with both yourself and with her.
You just told me you have every reason to trust and believe in your wife. She was present and made her marriage vows, just like you did. Now trust the integrity you think your wife has and start having some real conversations with her.
Never doubt that it is going to be painful and hard. But just know the pain and the insecurity and the doubt you will feel through the process is not necessarily an end, but a beginning.
