Gordie: Pulling it all together 2

[Gordie]

Now that my W's heart has hardened (it was like a switch was flipped), I feel this classic sandi2 advice applies to me:

I'm sure it must be very difficult for you, but please understand that a WAW is a different creature from the girl you M. The girl you M was in love with you. Your WAW no longer feels in love with you. Your bride wanted you to fill her up emotionally. The woman you have now feels emotionally dead to you. You used to be all she thought about and she wanted to please you. Somewhere, that faded away. She wanted you to compliment her when you thought she looked great. Now, it kind of irks her to hear it from you. She admired and respected you as a man, But she has neither for you now. She wanted to be with you sexually. But now she no longer desires you.

Even when PT is not the primary LL, people in love still want to be touched by their S. People who have a high drive may still have sex with their S, but the in-love feelings aren't there. People on the board have different opinions about having sex with a WAS. If there was always a healthy sex life in the M......who knows? But if she wasn't the one who usually initiated, IMHO I would have to say she isn't interested. "Most" WAW's feel completely "done" with the M. Once done.....she feels that's it. Can't go any further with it, and won't try.

She doesn't get to that point overnight. The WAW feels very unhappy, neglected, and lonely for a long time. The H may say it's not true, but it's her feelings and it's how she remembers it (right or wrong). She feels "empty" and then she begins to feel "dead" inside.

When she feels dead, she's in an extremely vulnerable position. B/c the first male who says just the right words to make her feels special, makes her feel pretty, or young & sexy.....she is in danger of stepping into an emotional realm that will thrive on her emotions. The more ego food she gets, the stronger the emotional fantasy.....and pretty soon, you've got a monster who has replaced the girl you M.

Yes, she will start looking really good! She'll work out, dress in younger looking clothes, change her hair, wear more make-up, and some start hitting the party life. (That's why I personally think she has another man's attention....or is looking.) I mean, you have to ask yourself why is she suddenly doing this (especially when she's so obviously disinterested in her H). And if there isn't a "why", then you have to ask yourself who. It is usually a who that sets off the ego spark in a woman (who has felt dead for a long time). Once she feels that little spark, she sees there's life after death, and she's not about to give it up.

Now, your nature will want to do all those things you should have done a long time ago. But you see, she doesn't want you to do it now. In fact, if you try to do it now, it will backfire and make her pull away quicker than ever. That brings me back to the touching. Some DB coaches have advised certain folks to do a little touch to see the response. Depending on that particular stitch. But it sure doesn't happen in all cases! B/c the WAW is no longer attracted to her H, and she no longer desires his attention, compliments, or touches. In fact, she goes to the extreme the other direction from her old self. It seems anything he does simply turns her off, and that's why anything that resembles romantic intentions will get you bad results. And each time a LBH tries that route, she has to show him that she's serious about ending the M, b/c she thinks you aren't accepting it.

[ForGump]

Gordie, tough times ...

But keep in mind right now is the time you need to DB the most. Be warm and super steady.

I don't wish this experience on anyone, but I'm glad to have your voice in this forum.

[Gordie]

Yes, I feel like this is the end. We didn't want to be in my presence tonight. I just gave her space. I did not pursue or initiate conversation. I spent the evening with the kids.

[Gordie]

We only spoke a few words to each other the whole night (probably the least we have spoken to each other in 20 years, even when traveling). I didn't ask about her day (I usually do), nor did she ask me about my day. She did ask me a D question because she has a meeting set up with her L. I told ForGump, I'm not good a distant (emotionally and physically not pursuing) and friendly. When I am distant, I know I am cold. How can I be distant and friendly?

[Gordie]

Dang, it's been five days since my W's hardening and my non-pursuit/LRT. It does feel like she is ignoring me and I am ignoring her. How does this help things? Is my non-pursuit/ignoring/LRT just more of the same for us...and what I did to contribute to the death of our M in the first place? I feel like I am in a panic.

I re-read the section of when nothing is working, as that is where I feel I am. One of the reasons MWD gives of why it's not working is that when some spouses decide the M is over (my fear after the last incident with POM), it is and there's nothing the LBS can do about it. Her advice is you can't mind read and know if that is your situation and keep trying things until you just can't anymore.

She also suggests looking for signs of hope, so here are the only ones I can come up with over the past 48 hours: (1) W's unsolicited compliment on one of my GAL activities, and (2) W's initiating physical contact by asking me for a massage (this after a day when she didn't want to be any more than three feet from me).

God, help me. I'm really, really desperate (hopefully, I'm not showing it).

[Rose888]

I think I missed something. Why are you doing LRT?

Do you think not pursuing is the same thing as LRT?

Are you generally a distant person? I ask, because I'm not. I tend toward over sharing. So when people say, "act like you're talking to a neighbor" that doesn't mean the same thing for all of us.

Iknow our situations are different, and those differences might be key here, but for me, distancing backfired. It was far more effective for me to be me but to work on living my life without letting the situation with H affect my mood.

So in that way, it was like a neighbor. If I see my neighbor, we talk, I ask about her day, I talk about mine, I commiserate if she's having a bad day--but her bad day does not make me have a bad day.

Not sure any of this is useful, but hopefully something in there sparks an idea.

[Gordie]

Rose, thank you--always helpful.

***I think I missed something. Why are you doing LRT?***

Over the weekend, the kids saw my W through the window at her place of business. We went in and W and POM were there alone working (nothing unusual) and the interaction was friendly and casual. When next I saw my W a few hours later, it was like a switch was flipped and her heart was totally turned off to me. She couldn't stand to be in my presence. She couldn't look me in the eye. This has never happened before.

***Do you think not pursuing is the same thing as LRT?***

Yes, I see LRT as not pursuing in the extreme, but maybe I'm not understanding...make that probably not understanding (though I keep reading those sections of the book).

***Are you generally a distant person? I ask, because I'm not. I tend toward over sharing. So when people say, "act like you're talking to a neighbor" that doesn't mean the same thing for all of us.***

Well, I'm generally a distant person to strangers, but not distant around friends and family. For me, I would not ask my neighbor how their day was or how they are feeling. I wave and smile and say hello. That's about all I did with W yesterday. Gosh, what you said never occurred to me. Maybe I need to be a warm and friendly neighbor!

***I know our situations are different, and those differences might be key here, but for me, distancing backfired.***

Yes, in the past, distancing has backfired (more of the same), so I have not been following that approach.

***It was far more effective for me to be me but to work on living my life without letting the situation with H affect my mood. So in that way, it was like a neighbor. If I see my neighbor, we talk, I ask about her day, I talk about mine, I commiserate if she's having a bad day--but her bad day does not make me have a bad day.***

Wow, that is eye opening. Maybe I'm letting my W's feelings and actions determine my feelings and actions (opposite of detachment). She was pushing me away, so I was trying to give her even more space, but am afraid it gets interpreted as me ignoring her. Maybe as FG reminded me above, I just need to be warm and steady.

***Not sure any of this is useful, but hopefully something in there sparks an idea.***

Yes, as always Rose, you are a font of wisdom.

[ForGump]

How can I be distant and friendly?

I'm probably the wrong guy to answer this since my W is divorcing me but what I tried to do is to be warm & friendly while interacting, but severely limit those interactions, both in number and duration.

[ForGump]

G--

I think you might be right that you're mirroring your W's moods, and that's not necessarily helpful.

When my W's head is filled with feelings, hopes, fantasies of another man... that's when she's the coldest to me. She HAS to be cold to me, to keep her emotional world consistent. She can't simultaneously soak up her passionate fantasies for other men while being kind and warm to me.

I think the same type of dynamic might explain why your W was so cold to you after she spent a few hours w/ POM. Her head (and heart) was still trapped in her fantasy, and she had to keep you out of that world.

[CaliGuy]

I re-read the section of when nothing is working, as that is where I feel I am. One of the reasons MWD gives of why it's not working is that when some spouses decide the M is over (my fear after the last incident with POM), it is and there's nothing the LBS can do about it. Her advice is you can't mind read and know if that is your situation and keep trying things until you just can't anymore.

Gordie, I will not contradict advice MWD gives, but you must realize that in MLC the tactics are similar but its more of the long game mindset. Things we do with a MLCr will not always provide immediate results for starters .... add that in with the fact they think these things you are doing are nothing but a ploy to trick them back into the miserable marriage they are so desperate to get out of. Summary .. They do not trust your changes are for real nor will they stick ... keep at it, though it may feel counter intuitive and not yielding results.

Over the weekend, the kids saw my W through the window at her place of business. We went in and W and POM were there alone working (nothing unusual) and the interaction was friendly and casual. When next I saw my W a few hours later, it was like a switch was flipped and her heart was totally turned off to me. She couldn't stand to be in my presence. She couldn't look me in the eye. This has never happened before.

This is a MLC trait, mine is horrible at this, still is. I link it to the guilt they wrestle with. On one hand they must prove to you, themselves and everyone watching this choice they are making is for the best ... deep down they know and they struggle terribly with it which is why they can not look you in the eye.

Maybe I need to be a warm and friendly neighbor!

Thats a good approach, keeping in mind that your neighbor may be nice one day and poop on your lawn later that night.

Yes, in the past, distancing has backfired (more of the same), so I have not been following that approach.

If you read a bit .. various sitches ... distancing is more for the LBS as a boundary, self protection. It only backfires when you are trying to use it to shock them out of the crisis, when you attach expectations on it or use it in a punishing way.

Wow, that is eye opening. Maybe I'm letting my W's feelings and actions determine my feelings and actions (opposite of detachment). She was pushing me away, so I was trying to give her even more space, but am afraid it gets interpreted as me ignoring her. Maybe as FG reminded me above, I just need to be warm and steady.

You have to find YOU. The guy you lost along the way, not many of us can make it through a 20 year relationship without losing chunks of who we are along the way ... this was the person who was confident and attractive ... it surely was what your W was drawn to. Now she sees the shell of a man who was, or this person who did not live up to what she thought he would be ..... now to be honest none of us would live up to that. Its Disillusionment on our spouses part and tied with MLC its the fuel that sends them running along with the issue they are not willing to face at this time in the crisis. ALL THIS IS OUT OF YOUR CONTROL

The one thing you can control is you. Find yourself ... GAL, 180 PMA .. all that. Do things that push you out of your comfort zone and rediscover yourself. Its really all you can do while allowing them to go through their journey.

In your case its more difficult with her there .. the constant reminder day in and day out. Some would love for the MLCr to be under their roof ... others the opposite. Having been exposed to both, I personally prefer not being in the front row seat watching the crisis for my own sanity. So accept this is where things are and give yourself time away doing things ... she may act like it doesn't matter and ignore you but she is noticing I assure you.