Newby here, desperate for some advice (thread 6)

[JRuss]

DonH -- Did you actually read sandi's post? There wasn't any "advice" in it at all. But even had there been, yes, I'm going to politely reject advice I know to be poorly considered, especially if it is delivered rudely. Others might beg for that, I guess, and I do see some unfortunate groveling here, but that's doormat stuff.

And there's no "woe is me, my life is terrible and over" with me. Let's dispense with the strawmen. Strawmen are never helpful where the goal is to have a meaningful conversation. What there is "with me" is a relationship that I valued very highly that has died. I administered CPR to the corpse for a long time, in a lot of ways, some of them DB-approved, many of them not. None of those efforts were successful in terms of "busting" anything. There is a low-to-no-conflict living situation that, for the kids' benefit, still mimics happily married life at times, which delays healing but which also gives me more time with my children, so I go along to get along, rightly or wrongly. This makes full detachment more difficult, I think, than in the more traditional physical separation scenarios because it pretty understandably draws out the Kubler-Ross denial/hope stage. There is worry and fear for the future (mine and my children's). And there is grief that cycles between that denial/hope, sorrow, anger and (although still more rarely than I'd like) acceptance. All of which I try to own, and all of which I'm working very hard to address and manage, albeit not all that well at times.

Just a quick word on these "dozens of books on how" to "alter" thoughts "to a large percent": sorry, most are written by charlatans for gullible people. History is full of false gurus. This site has it's fair share of them. Again, the work, the effort, the practice -- and I've spent hundreds of hours on this by myself and in IC -- is in realizing the true nature of thoughts, what they really are, and learning how to mindfully manage the relationship between those thoughts, one's emotions, one's sense of self, one's identity and, in time (hopefully), one's overall mental health. Hell, it is a huge, huge deal just to have that initial breakthrough of realizing you are not your thoughts; that they have nothing to do with your Self. A huge percentage of world's population never even wakes up to it, and they live their lives none the wiser, to their detriment.

So saying that we can't control the raw output of our thinking mind for more than even a few seconds at a time (and it takes meaningful, sustained practice to do even this) isn't self-pity or me not accepting things: it's just accurate. For all but the truly enlightened (and you'll have to point them out to me, because I've never actually seen one), it's what you do with the thoughts once they arise. To some this comes naturally; for those of us with my particularly ruminative brand of depression (and yes, I've been "addressing" it since even before BD), it takes a $hit ton of work, therapy, (possibly) medication, exercise, rest, GALing and time.

Honestly, most of my posts here at this point are intended to give voice to how hard I find this journey and to hopefully feel supported in those efforts. It really stopped being about busting my divorce quite some time ago. There isn't going to be that happy ending we all hope for when we first get here. Some days I have very strong faith that there will be a different but still very happy future; other days, it feels like things are and always will be pretty bleak. It is what it is. On we go.

[JRuss]

So, how can you learn to manage these thoughts better?

What I do to manage my thoughts, not at all always successfully:

1. I meditate. Every day. I haven't missed a day in over 2 years.

2. I go to a wonderful IC, sometimes weekly if I'm struggling, sometimes less frequently, but always at least a couple of times a month.

3. I GAL, and I exercise regularly. A tired mind is a less tortured mind, I've found.

4. Not super proud of it, but I also take a pill every day.

5. On the front lines of all of this, when I do catch myself in lost-in-thought mode, I try to gently bring myself back to the present moment. Lather, rinse, repeat.

5. Depression being in a lot of ways about feeling powerless, and knowledge being power, I read and study a lot about the nature of thoughts, about the Self, about consciousness and spirituality and, more generally, about managing depression mindfully.

6. I will often times watch shows on Netflix before I go to sleep. Sometimes mindless trumps mindful, if sleep in the immediate short-term is the goal (and no sleep is a big no-no for depression sufferers).

I would love to hear about things that help others.

[ForGump]

Speaking as another person in a zombie marriage ... it can be a quite comfortable place to be, as long as it lasts, even though the dark dread of the final end always shrouds that comfort. Kids, especially younger ones, are minimally affected by the lack of affection between the parents, especially if they are warm and friendly in a platonic way.

This must have been the way for thousands of years. It's probably only the modern marriage where we expect every couple to be romantic.

I'm not saying I like it nor I want it this way. Just that zombies feel kinda OK stumbling around. Til they get the final bludgeon in the head.

[JRuss]

Had a pretty nice all-four-of-us Friday night, got pizza, the kids and I were laughing, having a great time. Even W was in a happy mood.

It must have made her feel something she's been running away from, though, because I wake up Saturday morning to "just so you know, I am going to want to separate after the Holidays". Lots of spew about how she's suffered so long, how she's always wanted to live on her own and to feel comfortable in her own home but never has. I knew in the back of my mind that this was coming in the next few weeks, so I was able to stay composed and just told her ok, that's not what I want, but I am not going to stand in your way. You can get your own place and pay for it with the money you earn, and I'll stay in the house and take over the mortgage with the money I earn. We'll freeze your equity when you move out, and shortly before divorce, we'll sell the house and settle up. I tried to keep it all about business even though I was dying inside. She flipped out, said she can't afford a separate place right now and wants instead to rent a one-bedroom and have us swap in and out while the kids stay in the home they live in now. I said I needed to think about that. It would be less disruptive on the kids not having to start the back-and-forth to separate houses routine now, but I'm struggling with the idea that I'd have to live in a crap hole 50% of my time. I don't like apartment living. I'm meeting with a lawyer this AM to see what my rights are.

Honestly, what I'd like is for her to move to the one bedroom and come back to our house when/if she feels like parenting wouldn't be beneath her. It drives me nuts that one person can essentially have a slowly unfolding (as in years) temper tantrum pity party about the trajectory of the live she's lived and the choices she's made, decide she needs to blow it all up so she can have a new identity, and the three other people in the family all just have to go along with her and all of the disruption she's going to inflict. Don't like parenting and your life isn't exciting enough? Fine -- let me do 100% of it and shove off!

In an odd way, this seems to have moved me out of my rut of pining for my W and R. A person who can do this to her children -- essentially because she's bored and wants to see if there's someone better out there -- isn't attractive to me, at all. I'm sure it will cycle back and forth, but, for now the pain isn't about her but really just the suffering of knowing the time is fast approaching where I'll start missing out on so much of my children's lives, and they'll have all of this crap they have to deal with.

I've been trying to beat back the anxiety with mindfulness techniques, but it is hard. It is pouring down rain here today, so I'll probably go to the gym to work out and hopefully take my mind off things for a while.

[ForGump]

Holy cow. Big development, JR.

I like the way you held your ground on not moving out, at least until you've thought about it.

Remind me, are you in a state that requires a 1 year separation before a divorce?

If you held your ground -- no way in hell am I moving out -- then what's the worst case? Your W is files for divorce, so you can have kids shuttle back & forth 50%-50% of the time?

I look at my kids and the thought that comes to me isn't so much, Your mother is going to do this to you ... it's more ... that your mother is the person that she is, and the dice was rolled a long time ago.

[JRuss]

No one year wait here. My L this AM said minimum realistic time from file to full D is 100 days, mainly because you have to demonstrate that you've both gone to a co-parenting class and you have to get on the court's docket for things to be final.

If I held my ground and said no to the apartment model, she could move out and into a new place that could accommodate the kids' overnights, file, or stay in this zombie in-house thing. Complicating things is the need (or at least goal) of keeping our current house so that our youngest can stay in the excellent school for which he's zoned through this year and next. I'd likely file if she moved out to a stand alone 3bdr+ home if it weren't for the school zone issue, but by filing, I'd owe her half of the equity in the home, and I doubt I could swing that unless I were to refinance, and I haven't looked at that at all in terms of how much that would increase my monthly mortgage. I'll owe a not immaterial amount of monthly child support, too, and I'll never shirk that, but it adds to set costs each month.

Lots of not-fun stuff to consider, but it was sort of calming to talk all of this out with the L.

[ForGump]

Tough calculus ...

Refuse the apt arrangement, which might mean she'll move out and you keep your 100% access to your kids (til the eventual divorce); or she reacts by filing, which results in 50% access to your kids. Either way there will be some bad feelings.

Accept the apt model and you immediately lose 50% access to your kids.

I guess you have to weigh the odds are that she'll file vs. bad feelings it'll engender...

[JRuss]

I think there's no chance she'd move into an apartment if I were going to stay with the kids 100% of the time. She might be tempted on some level (the level that is screaming at her to live what she sees as a more exciting life), because she'd have so much less in the way of parenting obligations and more time for fun, but I think she'd think society, friends, family, etc. would judge her (and I agree they would). So, I think she'll push for the apt but, if I say no, will then just move to a stand-alone 3BDR. In both sitches, I'd lose 50% time with the kids, but the latter is much more expensive.

Honestly, I think I'd file now if I could get the son-needs-the-school-zone thing sorted. It might be that all he has to do is be in the zone when school starts next year, which would be early August here. I need to look into that, but it might be my end date I could be pointing to if I do end up doing the apt thing.

[Gordie]

It drives me nuts that one person can essentially have a slowly unfolding (as in years) temper tantrum pity party about the trajectory of the live she's lived and the choices she's made, decide she needs to blow it all up so she can have a new identity, and the three other people in the family all just have to go along with her and all of the disruption she's going to inflict.

I feel exactly the same way and my W keeps saying it will be better for the children and for our relationship because she will be happier. How do you manage the pain and the anger and sense of betrayal and personal failure?

[JRuss]

Gordie -- it's very hard to manage those feelings, and I've been anything but successful so far, at least for any sustained period.

Honestly, I think that, once we're separated, it will get easier strictly from my perspective. The great unknown is how the kids will fare, and that keeps me spinning a lot of the time.