Still lost, still confused (part 2)

[fightin]

Gosh j2, I don't know how you do it. Seriously. You can only take so much abuse. She doesn't realize what she is losing, but that will be what she has to live with. If you choose to walk away at this point you can know you gave it all you had to give. Praying for peace for you, friend.

[MoveFrwd]

For me, I have since day 1 said that to me (my feelings and thoughts) that once divorce happens it's over forever. I know many on here still work on themselves in hopes that they will have a new, better relationship with their former spouse but I am not one of them.

I think you are missing the point.

People on here, like me, are working on themselves in hopes of having a better relationship with our next partner. If that turns out to be our spouses, then I imagine many on here would be happy. Unfortunately, none of us have control over that outcome; all we can do is understand where we went wrong in the old relationship and learn how to do better in the new one. If your only definition of success is reconciliation, then I think you are setting yourself up for failure.

How does it look different? Once divorced, she will be the woman I impregnated twice. That's it. Nothing else. Not a friend. Not an acquaintance. Nothing but the woman who happens to be linked by kids.

OK. But how is that different from what she is to you right now?

I get the whole "mother of my children" part. That's why I have been so respectful and flexible and patient. But if I am not treated with respect as "father of her children" then she will not get respect from me.

You get to choose how you treat someone. In my mind, Im going to treat everyone how I would like to be treated. What you are saying above sounds like the opposite of detachment - letting your actions be controlled by hers.

4 therapists were in shock on what I've dealt with and each but the last 1 suggested I run....fast! I didn't. But at some point, you stop allowing someone to disrespect you and your boundaries.

Pro-marriage therapists?

In any case, why are you letting her disrespect your boundaries now? A weak boundary isnt really a boundary. So what are your boundaries? How are you going to maintain/protect them now?

So what will be different after divorce? Everything. No friend. No coldness from me but complete and utter disinterest. The legal documents will say what can and cannot happen and those would be followed to a T. Legally binding and agreed by both.

Like I said, why is that different from right now? In my opinion, the actual act of 'divorce' is no different from changing your facebook status - it's just reporting your relationship status to the government. I dont see how the actual act will actually change anything about your life.

[ForGump]

Fought for a year to be a great husband/father/man but it doesn't appear to have been enough....for her.

Not to be argumentative but ... I think the best question to ask is has it been enough for you.

Are you the man you want to be. One you respect.

The more you can take your W's feelings & reactions out of the equation, the better, I think.

I do agree with you that a year is a long time to fight for this.

Best,

[Vanilla]

Dark to J2

For me, I have since day 1 said that to me (my feelings and thoughts) that once divorce happens it's over forever. I know many on here still work on themselves in hopes that they will have a new, better relationship with their former spouse but I am not one of them.

I think you are missing the point.

Yes absolutely

People on here, like me, are working on themselves in hopes of having a better relationship with our next partner.

Yes, yes, yes

If that turns out to be our spouses, then I imagine many on here would be happy.

I always think it's the LBS that chooses in every sitch.

Unfortunately, none of us have control over that outcome; all we can do is understand where we went wrong in the old relationship and learn how to do better in the new one.

each R is different, what works in one may not in another or at a different time. Often we don't go wrong, it is not our circus or monkeys.

If your only definition of success is reconciliation, then I think you are setting yourself up for failure.

Absolutely

How does it look different? Once divorced, she will be the woman I impregnated twice. That's it. Nothing else. Not a friend. Not an acquaintance. Nothing but the woman who happens to be linked by kids.

OK. But how is that different from what she is to you right now?

Great post agree agree agree.

I get the whole "mother of my children" part. That's why I have been so respectful and flexible and patient. But if I am not treated with respect as "father of her children" then she will not get respect from me.

You get to choose how you treat someone. In my mind, Im going to treat everyone how I would like to be treated. What you are saying above sounds like the opposite of detachment - letting your actions be controlled by hers.


Wow, great thoughts.

4 therapists were in shock on what I've dealt with and each but the last 1 suggested I run....fast! I didn't. But at some point, you stop allowing someone to disrespect you and your boundaries.

Pro-marriage therapists?

In any case, why are you letting her disrespect your boundaries now? A weak boundary isnt really a boundary. So what are your boundaries? How are you going to maintain/protect them now?

I would love to know the answers too.

So what will be different after divorce? Everything. No friend. No coldness from me but complete and utter disinterest. The legal documents will say what can and cannot happen and those would be followed to a T. Legally binding and agreed by both.

Like I said, why is that different from right now? In my opinion, the actual act of 'divorce' is no different from changing your facebook status - it's just reporting your relationship status to the government. I dont see how the actual act will actually change anything about your life.

It may set him free to date and feel free. For some of us these changes aren't appropriate or permitted until D.

----------------------------

I love this post by dark.

V

[Maybe]

That IS a great post by dark. I want to soak this advise in. I should treat H as my potential next partner...

And j2, even I, someone read and agree with all the resources l but having troubles following, can tell that that is your anger talking. I read that fear attracts fear, love attracts love. My issue is with fear, I think yours is anger? Let's all go back to love. I would not want to walk away from this as a person not being able to love or be loved... you?

[j20a00g]

It primarily is anger and fear. I think anyone who isn't on here to try and save their marriage at least in the beginning is not being truthful. Ofcourse working on myself and being the best I can be is the primary goal but, I have yet to meet anyone that is please or happy just competing in the olympics without them wanting in the back of their mind winning the gold.

It's deflating when someone who you have built a life with tells you after 18 years that you aren't good enough but this OM is. Do I know it's true? No. but it's true to her and she's the judge, jury, and executioner.

Vanilla is right about the "set free" comment. This has been over a year now. 8 months since being intimate (once all year), 7 months since kissing, 6 months since hugging anyone other than my D's. It's not easy. Not at all.

Yes, the last was finally a true pro marriage therapist (gottman) and not one that just claimed to be like so many do. Throughout our marriage, she has always been a teller. She gets loud and animated when she is angry. I no longer allow to be yelled at or cursed at over the phone. With regards to other boundaries, it's interesting how when someone doesn't want to be around you how boundaries aren't that difficult to enforce. Past boundaries were not being around when she would be texting OM during family time. But again, not an issue anymore.

I've tried the "treat everyone as I wish to be treated" and it sounds awesome! But again, when your best friend begins banging your wife. You lose some faith in humanity. Sorry if I sound bitter but, it's true. 2 people that got tons of respect, encouragement, support, etc (all things I wish from people) ended up pouncing on the opportunity. If you can't trust your spouse or your closest friend, who can you?

How does my view change on her post divorce from what it is now? Divorce may be just the legal side to some but it's far more to me. I'm not religious but I deeply believe that marriage is a bond that is treasured. Not disposable. Many things can tarnish or ding that bond but, divorce breaks it forever imo. It shows that someone gave up on the other. Permanently.

I'm not so sure that the statement about many people are here to make themselves better for their next relationship.....if that's truly the case then I'm not so sure the divorce busting model or website is the right place. I get the some parts of personal enrichment can cross over but, most of the technique and method is geared towards trying to save your marriage. There are far better resources for personal development. MWD is in the marriage saving business. Not the prep for your next relationship business.

[Rose888]

Here's the thing--no system can promise you control over another adult.

What we can control is us. DB has made me a better person and a better partner. The crisis in my marriage motivated me to dig deep in a way I wouldn't have otherwise.

In my case, DB also helped my marriage, but even if it hadn't I'd be better off because of it.

[Maybe]

Hi J2,

I feel for you, you stitch is much more F up than mine (although mine is pretty out there too...). Things must be hard for you, but I want to assure you things aren't easy for you XW and XBF. They might think it's true love and all, but when the lust wear off, and it will, they will need to face their conscious. Trust me they know the pain they are causing to you and the children, be the bigger person, do the right thing, let the universe punish them, it's hard, but harder the challenge the greater the reward.

My H texted me just then, saying I am doing the best and hardest with S, and he appreciate me. This is the same person that said I was a crazy control freak, and he wants nothing but run away from me. When they are not busy defending themselves, they can come to their senses. Just don't be their enemy, or they will be too busy fighting you rather than reflecting on themselves.

In saying that, I am still lose. I still don't know if I should hope for his return. So really, I am not in the position to give you a speech. I thank you for commenting on my thread, it's always good to a third party's opinion coz I am so consumed by my emotions to see clearly.

I think you are doing great, feeling the pain is part of the process.

[j20a00g]

Thx rose and maybe.

[MoveFrwd]

It primarily is anger and fear. I think anyone who isn't on here to try and save their marriage at least in the beginning is not being truthful. Ofcourse working on myself and being the best I can be is the primary goal but, I have yet to meet anyone that is please or happy just competing in the olympics without them wanting in the back of their mind winning the gold.

Of course everyone comes here originally to save their marriage. Nobody thats single and looking for self improvement would go to a forum about divorce. That said, the things that are best for your marriage are also the best for you...in other words, the path towards self improvement is also the path which has the best chance to save your marriage.

It's deflating when someone who you have built a life with tells you after 18 years that you aren't good enough but this OM is. Do I know it's true? No. but it's true to her and she's the judge, jury, and executioner.

I completely agree. Nobody likes to be told that there is somebody 'better' out there. Maybe he is, maybe he isnt. Youre right - your opinion doesnt matter on this topic.

Vanilla is right about the "set free" comment. This has been over a year now. 8 months since being intimate (once all year), 7 months since kissing, 6 months since hugging anyone other than my D's. It's not easy. Not at all.

Nope. It isnt. So wat youre saying s that on the day of the divorce you are going to go out and start dating again? I understand. For me, I didnt wait until the official divorce; I think I started getting 'out there' about a month before it was finalized. I say to each their own on that - I feel it's more about timing and each person rather than whats reported to the government, but I can understand the other side.

Throughout our marriage, she has always been a teller. She gets loud and animated when she is angry. I no longer allow to be yelled at or cursed at over the phone. With regards to other boundaries, it's interesting how when someone doesn't want to be around you how boundaries aren't that difficult to enforce. Past boundaries were not being around when she would be texting OM during family time. But again, not an issue anymore.

You said this:
But at some point, you stop allowing someone to disrespect you and your boundaries.
So what boundaries are being disrespected? My question was why are you allowing your boundaries to be disrespected now? Your comment was that your divorce would end the disrespect.

I've tried the "treat everyone as I wish to be treated" and it sounds awesome! But again, when your best friend begins banging your wife. You lose some faith in humanity. Sorry if I sound bitter but, it's true. 2 people that got tons of respect, encouragement, support, etc (all things I wish from people) ended up pouncing on the opportunity. If you can't trust your spouse or your closest friend, who can you?

You dont have to apologize to me. But on the one hand, you want to be 'set free' to see other people and on the other hand, you've 'lost faith in humanity'. So you are itching to get ride back on that train but now with a bitter heart? Yes, people can be incredibly cruel. But in my mind, if you learn how to treat others as you should, they will respond in kind.

How does my view change on her post divorce from what it is now? Divorce may be just the legal side to some but it's far more to me. I'm not religious but I deeply believe that marriage is a bond that is treasured. Not disposable. Many things can tarnish or ding that bond but, divorce breaks it forever imo. It shows that someone gave up on the other. Permanently.

Thats a fine view. In my mind, the bond is broken at BD. The actual divorce proceedings are just paperwork. I believe just as strongly in the bond of marriage, but I dont believe the break is permanent - anything can happen at any time.

I'm not so sure that the statement about many people are here to make themselves better for their next relationship.....if that's truly the case then I'm not so sure the divorce busting model or website is the right place. I get the some parts of personal enrichment can cross over but, most of the technique and method is geared towards trying to save your marriage. There are far better resources for personal development. MWD is in the marriage saving business. Not the prep for your next relationship business.

As I said above, in my mind, the marriage is pretty much already over at BD. So there isnt anything to 'save'. The only thing we can really control is our words, thoughts, actions, reactions, emotions, etc. So that is where the energy should focus. As I said above, that type of self-discovery and self-improvement is exactly following the DB model. It's about getting a life....it's about doing the 180....its about setting personal goals and trying to achieve them. We all come here hoping to reconcile and Ive seen many who have. My hope is that those relationships come out stronger and more mature based on their time here.