New to the Boards. Marriage in Crisis.

[Rose888]

Or, if you typically consult on things like this, "I'm going to church on Sunday, and I'd like to take the kids."

It recognizes that she could potentially have made other firm or tentative plans for them during that time, while being firm about what you are going to do yourself.

[Chris73]

Or, if you typically consult on things like this, "I'm going to church on Sunday, and I'd like to take the kids."

It recognizes that she could potentially have made other firm or tentative plans for them during that time, while being firm about what you are going to do yourself.

This might work best. I'll try it!

Thanks everyone!

[Painter]

I think Rose's approach is perfect. I would possibly add, 'And you are of course welcome to join us if you want to,' but in a very casual tone. Don't be invested in her decision or have any expectations. Think about her as a neighbor or friend - it's nice if they come, but you won't miss them if they don't.

Being the child of an alcoholic myself, I'm going to throw in a thought I had after reading your posts. Living with an alcholic can make you addicted to drama. It is experienced as painful and bothersome on a conscious level, and it will initially feel like a relief when you don't have it in your life anymore, but there may be long-time patterns of chemical reactions in the body that can make you feel bored with a 'normal' life, so after a while you may subconsciously create disruption in order to get the adrenaline rushes that you used to get from the drama created by the alcoholic who is no longer there. Does that make sense?

Maybe your WW has a need for excitement that she's not getting satisfied in a stable, reliable and predictable marriage with a solid partner. I wonder how she would react to a little unpredictability on your end. GAL-activities and pursuing your own agenda could potentially provide that. I'm really curious what would happen if you experimented a little with this.

[Chris73]

I really like what we've all constructed together for the church question. I'm going to try:

"I'm going to church on Sunday, I'd like to take the kids, and you are of course welcome to join us if you want to."

Regarding the drama addiction, Painter, you are spot on.

By nature I am non-confrontational (to a fault I might add). The thought of even starting an argument makes my pulse race and my body flushed with heat. I avoid it like the plague. I've done this all my life and my current course of therapy is helping me realize how unhealthy this is for me.

Meanwhile, after the affair was discovered, my wife and I had a few conversations about "what happened". She admitted that even in the short 5-month span of the EA/PA she would regularly get into fights/arguments with the OM. She said it made her feel alive. She even said she was mad at ME because I didn't blow my stack when I found out.

So yes, I definitely think she has a drama addiction. Something that her own therapist is (hopefully) working on with her. I haven't seen a drastic change in her behavior since I started my GaL activities. It's only been about a week since I did my 180. But I've been making future plans to do things without her and this church situation will likely make her take notice.

I just wish I could help her figure out how to find a healthy substitute for the drama she's longing for...

[AndrewP]

Chris73 - In my own situation when my W was still living at home I would make plans like yours and use almost identical phrasing "you're welcome to join me".

Often she would almost look like she was considering it but usually leave me hanging. I'd shrug my shoulders and go and do it anyway. I remember one more elaborate adventure (dinner and a movie) where I never heard back from her, sent her a text telling her when I would be buying my ticket for the movie, and that I was leaving for the restaurant.

She never joined me but I think she appreciated the courtesy. Since I never pushed it perhaps it wasn't pursuit?

So - don't expect a definitive answer and don't change your plans to accommodate her.

[Painter]

Very interesting.

There's many other things you can do to elicit a little adrenalin besides arguing (which is destructive). Anything from rollercoasters or hot air ballon rides to a sports event or climbing a rock wall at a gym can give a rush. On a more intimate level, role play can be really interesting (this would have to be negotiated as something you both would want to try). Think Phil and Claire Dunphy from Modern Family and their regular meetings as pretend strangers in a hotel bar.

You may need to get really good at setting boundaries and take the lead in the relationship. Most women want to respect their man. It might not be a popular idea, but I really think it's devastating to a R if the woman loses respect for her partner. It doesn't mean that you steamroll her, you have to be sensitive to her needs (and it sounds like you are very aware and insightful) but that you are also a rock that is there regardless what stormy emotional sea she is in. I know it's a lot to ask!

[Chris73]

Thanks AndrewP and Painter.

I am fully on-board and committed to being the rock and the lighthouse in our R right now. And I totally understand about the respect issue. Clearly the loss of respect for me and our R contributed to my W thinking that going outside the marriage was acceptable. And there's no doubt that I contributed to that loss.

The hardest part for me is striking a balance between detachment and pursuit. My wife and I are still very friendly toward each other so I am using my GaL techniques to detach but also trying to be as positive and supportive as I can. For example, every morning I ask my wife (or txt her if she's still sleeping when I leave for work):

"How can I make your day better?"

I feel like this is a very direct question and requires a direct response from her. I've been doing it consistently for the past 9 days. Some of the responses have been the single word, "Nothing." Some have been "Nothing, thanks for asking." One day I got, "Thanks for asking. I can't think of anything right now. Have a great day!" Today I got "I'll let you know" with a "hmmmm" emoticon.

Now look, I'm not naive enough to think that all these little changes in her responses mean much. But in Step 2 of the DR, MWD talks about setting realistic goals and thinking small. One of my goals is related to improving our emotional closeness since we have very little of that in our R right now.

This weekend will mark 7 weeks since we've had sex, and in that 7 week's time there have been very few instances of any other physical closeness. A few days ago, I stopped saying "I love you" based on the DR recommendation that it puts too much pressure on my W to return the sentiment. I touch her occasionally and we still kiss/hug hello/goodbye, but that's about as far as it goes.

So for example, a goal of wanting to have sex with my wife twice a week is clearly far-reaching. But when the DR asks me, "What would be the first sign that things are progressing toward this goal?" I would say that it has to begin with behaviors that indicate some softening on her part: a few extra words in a text, a more enthusiastic "hello", an unexpected touch, or a hug that lingers just a little longer. Basically anything that would indicate a chink in the armor.

Am I overthinking this too much?

[j20a00g]

Yes. - goal right now should have nothing to do with sex. She mentioned less than 2 weeks ago that she wants to separate and you are concerned with sex or physical anything?

I suspect the only reason she still kisses or hugs or anything is not because she enjoys or wants it but because she's pacifying you.

The "how can I make your day better" bit is im quite sure smothering to her as well.

Read more about detaching.

[Chris73]

This is very difficult advice to take but I understand why the things I'm doing might be counter productive.

Yes, of course the sex/physical contact goal is far off. But again, the DR book mentions that far off goals are ok so long as you understand how to set your expectations low and notice the little things that indicate progress.

Today I have a full day alone with my kids (W works all day on Saturday) so I will focus on them and my GaL progress. Tomorrow I'm going to try the church thing discussed earlier in this thread. At some point this evening my W and I will need to discuss a few things regarding plans for the holidays and so on. I will bring up the church discussion then.

Thanks in advance for any add'l advice or encouragement you can throw my way today. It's been a very rough morning for me.

[j20a00g]

Far off goals are ok! Absolutely! But right now you are jumping steps. You can have a goal to run a marathon in a year from today but, if you never get off the coach from now until then, how do you expect it to happen?

You are on the coach. First thing is first is to sit up. Not to just close your eyes, tie your laces together and try to run a marathon.

Imho, your goals right now should be only about you. Also, you may want to look into the LRT