Still hanging on ... just

[JRuss]

Oluwa -- I am not judging you, because I struggle not to do the same things in my situation, but you are really hurting things with your pursuit. It is only going to drive her further and further away. Read and read and read again Cadet's link on the Pursuer/Distancer dynamic. That dynamic is the Grim Reaper of relationships and will kill them every time.

Right now, you need reassurance and demonstrated connection; she needs space. Only one of you (you) can give the other what they need right now, and that [censored], but it is the reality. It will only be when she feels the space created by you pulling back that she'll move back toward you, and, frankly, she may never even do that, which is why everyone stresses to you that the focus must be on you to start doing the things you need to do to be happy with our without her. But if you keep doing what you're doing, she most certainly won't move back toward you -- eventually she'll convince herself she has to get out and away in order to escape from what she'll feel from her perspective is intolerable smothering.

It's all very messed up, and it's really hard when you're under the same roof, but you have to figure out how to drop the rope and pull back.

We are in your corner -- hang in there!

[Oluwa]

I am sorry you are going through this. I totally understand that you want to know what is going on but all you are doing by asking her a bunch of questions is showing her your insecurities and that's not attractive to them. As hard as it is you need to let her go about her business and focus on you. The worst thing you can do is pressure her and push her further away. Stop pursuing her and GAL. It's hard but you can do it.

Thanks BillyHo. Believe me I know the mistake I made, and its why I posted here, mentioning that I wasn't happy with what I did. I am saying that I am finding it so hard, its so difficult to believe detaching may bring her back. What I need is what you and a few other posters have just sent. I need the reality messages and they are tremendously helpful, as even now I understand I need to try harder to detach and give her space. "Drop the Rope".

Like I said earlier, 5 hours ago I was positive after finally getting the DR book and starting a plan of reading and following the exercises. Then when I got home and she gave me her news about going out, I collapsed in a blubbering heap of weakness. I KNOW this is not the way to go, but I am going to make mistakes as I try to take control of myself.

As darknes says, there has been little detachment evidence from my posts, but I am posting like I have been detached, whereas I have more likely just been distancing myself from her, which means I don't have to monitor her emotions so much, this is a different to being detached.

Guys I am learning, and I will keep posting my successes and f***ups. Hopefully overtime there will be less of them.

[JRuss]

Detachment is the hardest part I've found. It is a state of mind, not a set of physical actions or happenings. It takes a lot of time and effort and consistent actions on your part.

So start with the actions first, because you can control those. Pull back physically: don't follow her around, don't ask for cuddles, don't initiate physical interactions, quit looking at her trying to deduce her moods by what her face or body language looks like, do your own things out of the home without inviting her; and pull back verbally: no asking about her day, no asking about her plans, no chit-chat, above all else, no R talk.

See how that goes. Don't try to solve the entire detachment riddle at once. Small but consistent steps will be the best thing, I think.

[Oluwa]

I want to address your comments darknes because they are so insightful and useful to me. I do thank you for your time in reviewing my ramblings.

Im pretty sure the rest of this post shows a complete lack of detachment...What do you think shows your detachment?

Yes this last post was the meltdown, where I lost all sense of detachment and essentially freaked out! You know I actually went and red Sandhis rules for 10 minutes before going back to the MBR to talk to her. Even after reading the rule about if they go out, dont ask where they have been etc. Its amazing the human mind and habits/rituals you form over the years.

I was talking more about my detachment of not trying to engage with her through the week. It was a start.

First, why did you ask her? Better would be to say OK. And then propose a different day or days that YOU want to go out and do something.

Thank you. Yes I should have done that, but panic got the better of me and wanted to know.

You mention a bunch of time how this is such short notice. What difference does it make? Its still a day ahead of time. Sometimes, they wont tell you until they are walking out the door.

Yes I agree with you here, only that this short notice is new behaviour to me and I a labelling it as a further deterioration in our R. Rightly or Wrongly, but thats why I panicked.

Again. Why? What were you hoping to gain? How did going to talk about it get you closer to your goals?{/quote]

Well I don't really have any defined goals in my sitch at the moment. I only got DR book today, so I am yet to try an understand goal setting in the context of my R. But in my current mindset I was hoping to understand what her planned night was, if it is an innocent girls night out, then I feel much better and less threatened.

[quote=darknes]What are you expecting. You think if she were going out with a guy or were going to meet a guy she would just TELL you? If you know the answer is a lie or you know you arent going to believe the answer, then asking the question is a complete waste of time and effort. All you do is appear paranoid and weak.

I love this comment, its so spot on for me. Asking the question is totally illogical, it does just show weakness and fear, "ooo!! what is she going to do outside without me!".

So what part of any of this shows detachment? Shows your strength?

Yep none of it...totally agree

Sigh. NO R TALKS!! Not a single word of this is a good look for you.

Yep... totally failed in no R talks.

Granted, why are you asking her to cuddle with you and you arent even sleeping in the same room? You just come off as desperate for her affection.

I know. But over the last year, we have had a pattern of watching TV and she will come over to lie with me. Or she will wake up in the morning and move across. That has stopped, although I am less in the room as well.

Why do you think SHE is going to alleviate your anxiety?

Because she will tell me the details of the night out and I will then be ok about it. Although as you have said, I have no guarantee of whether she is telling the truth or not.

Lets play this out:

- She told the 100% truth. Shes going out for a girls night with Sophie.
- She told half truth. Shes going out with Sophie but the intention is to meet guys.
- She lied and is doing something else.

What is different for you in these scenarios?

This is actually easy to answer. 1st one is what I want to hear, I am happy for her to go out on her own to enjoy herself, assuming it is innocent. Before the BD etc, she did go out once in a while and I had no problem with it.

Oh! I get your point, I have no way of knowing whether its option 1, 2, or 3...

1) What exactly do you want to know?
2) What is your alternative to the "DR process"?

1) I want to know where we are going with our R. I want to know whether I should keep trying to save it or make plans to seperate. I get it that she doesn't know the answer, but am I wasting all my energy trying to save something that is eventually going to end anyway.
2) Given its been a year and a half plus at least, I dont have an alternative to the DR process, other than being the one to start the seperation. I know I need to follow through on DR, but this post shows that I am going to backtrack alot as I keep trying to work on it. I feel in some way that once I succeed in detachment etc, then I won't want to be in the marriage anymore anyway, as there will be nothing to be in it for.

[Oluwa]

Right now, you need reassurance and demonstrated connection; she needs space. Only one of you (you) can give the other what they need right now, and that [censored], but it is the reality. It will only be when she feels the space created by you pulling back that she'll move back toward you, and, frankly, she may never even do that, which is why everyone stresses to you that the focus must be on you to start doing the things you need to do to be happy with our without her. But if you keep doing what you're doing, she most certainly won't move back toward you -- eventually she'll convince herself she has to get out and away in order to escape from what she'll feel from her perspective is intolerable smothering.

JRuss thanks for this! You describe the interaction very well re: reassurance vs space. Like I said earlier, I do get it, and I had a reasonable week of trying to detach, but the news of in going out, made me go back to being weak and push for answers that make no sense. Hopefully I am learning my lessons, and your comments and support are so invaluable. Thank you again.

[Oluwa]

Detachment is the hardest part I've found. It is a state of mind, not a set of physical actions or happenings. It takes a lot of time and effort and consistent actions on your part.

Yes this is so true. Intellectually I know what I need to do, but emotionally I am all over the place.

So start with the actions first, because you can control those. Pull back physically: don't follow her around, don't ask for cuddles, don't initiate physical interactions, quit looking at her trying to deduce her moods by what her face or body language looks like, do your own things out of the home without inviting her; and pull back verbally: no asking about her day, no asking about her plans, no chit-chat, above all else, no R talk.

Spot on again!! She has even said this before, that I am always looking at her to see what her mood is like and its too much!! I have stopped that for a while now and she hasn't complained. It amazes me how emotionally attached I have been to her over the years. I can only detach and see where that takes us. She said a while back, that "I can't carry you anymore!". It's like how many more signals do you need MAN to detach and GAL......

Thanks all for the support, it means so much.

[MoveFrwd]

I want to know where we are going with our R.

Nobody has a crystal ball. Thats like asking who's going to win a sporting event before it happens. Sure, there are odds and probabilities...but what happens during the game impacts the outcome of the game.

So, you cant know how it's going to end, because you havent written the beginning or middle yet!

I want to know whether I should keep trying to save it or make plans to seperate. I get it that she doesn't know the answer, but am I wasting all my energy trying to save something that is eventually going to end anyway.

For now do nothing but read DR.

Then set goals.

Than do what brings you closer to them.

[Oluwa]

Hi quick update.

When I saw W this morning, we were talking about something else and then she says, oh this is the person (sophie) I am going out with tonight and she showed me the WhatsApp conversation she had with her on her phone.

I looked briefly and said ok.

So, its good (I think) that she felt she should show me, as maybe she realised I was a bit concerned and it was fair of her to let me know who she is going out with. Although, she doesn't have to of course.

She said, oh I will probably be out really late tonight, as Sophie doesnt want to go out until later. I said, of course, I dont expect you'll be back until 3/4 am.

Left it at that.

[ForGump]

In your first post your WW talks about caring for you forever, and take you to the hospital if you become sick. Like many WS, I don't think your W fully grasps what a divorce will mean. Some divorced couples stay friends, but most likely you will go get your own life, and you will not stay close friends. You will have a new partner who will cuddle with you, watch TV with you, and if you get sick, your new partner will take you to the hospital, thank you very much.

It seems to me your WW wants to have her emotional cake and eat it too. She wants the reassuring emotional comfort of your marriage, but get rid of you at the same time.

[Oluwa]

Hey everyone,

So yeah, didn't see much of wife throughout saturday as various kid duties. She went ot get her hair done late afternoon, so didn't see her until evening. If your following my story, she is going out tonight, so new hair looking good. In a good mood as we prepare food for family.

I find a movie to watch with S12, and he inititially doesn't want to watch it, but 20 mins in he starts to like it. W comes out of bedroom to talk to son, "is dad making you watch a bad movie?", S12 "nah! its actually ok!". 30mins later W comes back in home theatre, "Im going in 10 mins", S12, "where are you going so late?", S,m "im going out with my friend Shelbie". S12 "why so late ?", Its around 9:40pm. I said, "thats the time you go out clubbing".

I say "Have a good night!", admittedly in a flat tone, and she says "Yes! I will have a fantastic time!", and wiggles her hips. I say "Why say it like that ?", she says "because you are clearly not happy that I am going out?". I said "I didn't mean it like that, I genuinely mean have a good night!". She wanders off.

A bit later, I got to room and say "Hey! why be so sensitive over what I said?". She says, "well clearly you are not happy I am going out", I say "well I would like to go dancing as well!", she says "well I don't want to go with you. We have been out 3-4 times over the last 4 months so I want to do something different!". I said, I understand, and I am genuinly happy that you will have a night out, I am sure you will enjoy it."

She is so cold about goig out, clearly I have no opinion and can't ask about anything witout her being offended.

I said, "You look Stunning! I do really hope you have a good night!". And then I left the room. 5 mins later she left to go out.

As of now, I finished movie witgh S12, then set up the SPA, drunk a bottle of red wine while watching a movie, which I enjoyed.

Now in home theatre, planning to sleep before she gets home. The thing is, if you saw my wife dressed up, there is no way guys won't be hitting on her, but in true WW/WAS syndrome, does she really see beyond the initial attraction ?

I don't think so, she is probably MLC as well, and thinking her whole life will be better if we seperate. But she hasn't thought this through at all.

I am so confused about DR/DB, as it seems that you offer yourself as a doormat for your S, and you have to focus on being perfect, while they do whatever they want, with the vague hope that one day they might turn around and come back to you.

How is this sustainable? If you have been the weaker partner (NGS etc) how do you turn that around without you waiting for you S to decide your worth it? Do people understand the paradox I am trying to explain ?