Me and Mildlife and...III

[CT1118]

Old thread:
http://www.divorcebusting.com/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2713115&#Post2713115

Took the wife part out of the title, but left the III as this is a continuation. Not that she is out of the picture. Just that the progression towards me has really moved - as in me towards me.

Affect and effect are two different things. This thought came to me sitting in class one night while discussing a business negotiation. I realized I had moved in my own view of myself. My spouse can still affect me but the effect is my choice. That is to say, she is still in my life enough to take an action which has the ability to affect me. However, actions do not have to cause change, dictate, or otherwise direct my behavior, which would be an effect.

That said, the Hockey game with son was fun. I invited a very old friend - 30 years, since 11 - who just happened to move from our hometown and land where I did and has a son 1 year younger than mine. The kids lasted about 10 minutes before they lost interest, but they made it though the whole game with the help of expensive pretzels, popcorn, and lemonade (oh my teeth!). I carried my boy upstairs to our apartment, in my arms, as he passed out in the Jeep. Laid him down, undressed him, kissed cheek, walked out and turned on a movie.


Steve Jobs movie, I would normally never watch this, but its on and I am really not. But I just heard a quote which has made this bad film worth it (I generally dislike Apple products so can't say I am unbiased), so I logged in to type. The quote was "When you're a father, that's what's supposed to be the best part of you". Well, I am not just trying anymore, I am being, and the proudest part of me is that I am a father.

[CT1118]

Sitch in a moment. Today s5 and I met up with the kid who he was in NICU w/ for 2 months and that kids dad. Did a swamp trail which for November it was way hot and filled with mosquitoes. But e made the best, did the trail, kids played at the park after, and then hit some tacos at a Mexican joint. S5 would later tell me "this was an awesome weekend Daddy, the best ever". I am not one to leave the bar set where it is for long, but that was great to hear. I have him all next weekend too, which I am already looking forward too.

To continue from my last thread, I said I did not intend to answer my spouse's email and that was true. I saw no need, nor point. The way I felt about it, my answer would have been control seeking and that is what I am seeking not to do. But...

She came over to drop him off on Saturday morning. She came in (actually s5 opens the door, which I do not mind, this is his place too, if she shows up alone, I expect a knock, w/him, he can walk in as long as I know the time to expect them) and, as always, began commenting about how clean the place was -its been months, but this is still somehow shocking that I desire to live in a clean place. Earlier that morning, she had texted and asked if it was ok that we ate some breakfast together and if she joined s5 and I for the Halloween thing in the city - why not. I was not overly excited or feigning anything, just you want to join, ok.

I had the tv on some music as I do on Saturday mornings. Told I had not walked the dog yet, wait in the apartment while I walk the dog. I come back up and she was walking out of my bedroom. She had never been in my apartment bedroom. There is a small hallway to a bathroom and then to my bedroom, but a door distinguishes that it is certainly private space from the rest of the apartment. She said "sorry, I need some hand lotion" I said "did you use the good stuff or the cheap stuff". Her answer indicated she had been in the bathroom - she named the good stuff. I really did not care, not cause of anything about, just that I truly did not care.

We drive the 1 mile to the downtown and park. Walking to breakfast here and I are just talking about things in the window's of shops. Our s5 kept interrupting, nothing new, he cannot help it. Near our destination, he interrupts and she says "Can your father and I just have a conversation just once?", then she turns and walks away and says to herself, "I mean that's why we are not able to be together right now." I do not think our son heard her, I barely did.

Go in, sit down, order. Small talk happens. School for s5 talk happens. Unprompted, she asks, "Did you get my email?" (this would refer to my last sitch update). "I did. I would rather not discuss this with our son here", I said. "Well, when, not like we see each other a lot, and you didn't answer...". Me, "If you want to know what I think, you should ask. Your email made many assumptions about what I think, what hurt me, what I need. How would you know, you never asked, not once. I am not going to give you this information unless you ask, as I do not feel I can without you getting defensive, questioning my motives, or thinking I seek to hurt you." She said,"I suppose I made you feel that way, that you can't say such things to me. I made you feel that way from how I have responded in the past?" Me, "That is true in as far as I have perceived it". "Maybe that is because I am not able to ask." A natural ending when the waiter delivered.

Eating. Food is great, should be, place had a rep for great breakfast. "I really miss you", she said. Me, very matter of fact,"What?" Her, "I really miss you. I miss spending time with you. You may not believe that, but I do" Me,"I miss you to, but it seems beyond that right now." Her "I just don't know what to do anymore, I just..." a waiter came up to ask how our meal was. That's where it ended in terms of that conversation. We did not pick it up the rest of the meal. S5's video on my phone ended. He began talking with us again, we finished, we left.

We took s5 around the city blocks and trick or treated. It was fun, he had fun. We ran into a mutual friend at the performance part with some clowns and acrobats. I drove us back to my place. As she was leaving she asked if we could "family hug" my s5 jumped on it, so I partook. She kissed my cheek b/c I turned away, she was going for lips. Neither one of us mentioned the distinguishing motion.

That was that. As said before, had a great night with my boy. Had a great night as a dad. The story above, posted in honesty. I said that I intended or did not want to say anything, but things went down as they did. There it is. Not really feeling much as I type other than a desire to be honest about the sitch. No contact today, and that was fine, perhaps even outright desired by me. Boy is in bed. "This was an awesome weekend Daddy, the best ever". That sits in my head.

[j20a00g]

Sounds like a great weekend! It's always awesome when the kids can be kids and enjoy themselves and forget about the "ish" for a bit. You sound like an amazing dad. That to me is most important.

It nearly killed me this weekend when s5 said she had a great time at Disney and that she though mommy was going to come back. Ugh. What she didn't know was mommy mentioned D 3 times this weekend. It's almost as if the calmer things get the quicker she tries to stir it up.

[ericmsant2]

CT

A couple of observations between your conversation with you W.

A lot of “YOU” in your statements, which often times will put someone on the defensive. I quoted your post piece by piece and listed how I may have responded.

"I did. I would rather not discuss this with our son here"

You could have stopped here and not proceed. Just a thought.

Me, "If you want to know what I think, you should ask.

My version of what could have been said instead…..Me, "If you want to know what I think, then feel free to ask me.

Your email made many assumptions about what I think, what hurt me, what I need.

I felt the email made assumptions about what I think, what hurt me and what I need

How would you know, you never asked, not once.

I would have not said this at all. If you felt you really needed to….I would have said “I felt like you did not ask about X”.

I am not going to give you this information unless you ask, as I do not feel I can without you getting defensive, questioning my motives, or thinking I seek to hurt you."

Instead of “I am not going to”….you could have said, I feel that had I responded, it may have resulted in a response that could have been perceived in a way that I would not have wanted.

The DB principals are based on communication and doing what works.

What I sense from your post is a bit of punishing her, which I can understand. IMO, you may need to determine what you really want. It seems like opportunities have presented themselves to you that may have given you an opportunity to show her the new you. Do you want this opportunities?

Not judging buddy – just asking.

I am glad you had a good time with your son.

[Mach1]

CT....

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. It has been a pretty turbulent couple months for me. For reasons that might be abundantly clear ( if you have been reading along )...

Not an excuse, just the reason...

I will be back shortly...

[CT1118]

The DB principals are based on communication and doing what works.

This is true. While what I did say actually worked, as in it turned her response towards me and my feelings for the first time in who knows when, that was not my intention. My intention was just being...actually, no intention, just a human responding to a human approached. No expectation, no anticipation, no prerecorded response at this point. This was despite the fact that I was speaking with honesty and unconcerned with what worked or what did not, just my truth. However, your point is one hundred.
I do wish to ask, is this where the truth meets the training? Where I am at? Where one is just one? I am not saying abandon the program and stop learning, rather where you just know what you can express of your belief in you and know what you say, in the face of whatever you face, is going to come out like you mean it, because you do? I really feel like I am on the outer edge of myself, perhaps further, hopefully further, JC I hope further. I'm not bleeding anymore.

What I sense from your post is a bit of punishing her, which I can understand. IMO, you may need to determine what you really want. It seems like opportunities have presented themselves to you that may have given you an opportunity to show her the new you. Do you want this opportunities?

That [censored] b/c I reported as honestly as I could recall it all, which was as honest as my journal afterwards, and punishing her is exactly what I did not seek/want. That said, trust is not free, nor a given, in any relationship, and in the relationship with you and I have my feelings of your opinions are respected as much as if they were as intrinsic, even more knowing they are desired to be as instinctual.

The subtleties of your corrections above showed me that I am not far off target, yet show me that I still have work to hit the target. Cut & pasted into my digital journal of where I can do better (of course you know the learning here is not just about W, but better communication with all people, so I save it).

Yes, I do want these opportunities. What I think I did correctly in that exchange: for the first time in a long time, she acknowledged my feelings as a person and not the me-monster. I want to acknowledge these opportunities in way...a way which makes it part of her journey, not my controlling nature. Feels like a fine hair. This is my true intention though. I do not want to fix. I do not want to control. I do not want to need. If she asks and seeks these answers embedded in her statements, I do believe she has to ask directly, as the answers have to be a part of her journey, and not solely for mine, if at all for mine (I am not not even one hundred I feel like I need to give them any more).

Not judging buddy – just asking.

Because you are who you are. Because Mach1 is who he is. Because of the challenges presented...and most importantly because I was closed before I open, I do not see this as judging. To the contrary, I once thought it altruism. Now I just see it as friend - as in a bond that is mutual, and for me, the respect of friend means something mighty, strength and honor as mulesqb would say.

I am glad you had a good time with your son.

What I know...
I only have to be great at one great thing once and that is me, so that I may teach him to be great at all things always him - and how to handle it when he is not. He is the champion over me. Thanks. I had him all this past weekend, I have him all next weekend. The fact that I do came from a simple question you asked me.

[CT1118]

CT....

I apologize for not getting back to you sooner. It has been a pretty turbulent couple months for me. For reasons that might be abundantly clear ( if you have been reading along )...

Not an excuse, just the reason...

I will be back shortly...

Every part of me wants to tell you not to apologize. Mach1, if you ever felt like you had to help one person, I will tell you that you helped me. So many times I have pushed and not been pushed back. If you never write to me again, your work as a mentor of me is done. If your work is done as a mentor, than I accept your apology and look forward to employing what you have taught me and what you might say in the future. If you are my friend, I am empathetic in your loss, you do not have to apologize, but I respect and appreciate why you would. In this case, every part of me wants to say I am sorry, I want to understand, but I can only do so as I am able, but I do try, and I feel it for you in my own way.

Ether way, my dad always told me, "your name is all you ever really leave behind, it's up to you how they speak it". I think, as far as here is 'here' the name is solidly spoken for. My take, for what it's worth.
Be well for the time, be well for now, just be well.

[Mach1]

The DB principals are based on communication and doing what works.

This is true. While what I did say actually worked, as in it turned her response towards me and my feelings for the first time in who knows when, that was not my intention. My intention was just being...actually, no intention, just a human responding to a human approached. No expectation, no anticipation, no prerecorded response at this point. This was despite the fact that I was speaking with honesty and unconcerned with what worked or what did not, just my truth. However, your point is one hundred.
I do wish to ask, is this where the truth meets the training? Where I am at? Where one is just one? I am not saying abandon the program and stop learning, rather where you just know what you can express of your belief in you and know what you say, in the face of whatever you face, is going to come out like you mean it, because you do? I really feel like I am on the outer edge of myself, perhaps further, hopefully further, JC I hope further. I'm not bleeding anymore.

What about it worked ? And who did it work for ???

I see what E is saying about punishing...

C, when we come through this via the DB route, we become so much more enlightened in how we respond rather than react, we become aware of our communication, we are light years ahead of our WAS's in that regard...

Whatever she has been doing for all of these months, I highly doubt that SHE has been working on becoming as self enlightened as you have...

You responding as the new you ?

You have to be careful on how you present yourself to her. You have to walk a razor's edge with your words. That is why it is so important to allow your actions to speak for you, and to be consistent with them.

Your words have to power to cut her deeply, not your intent, yet like we discussed before ? The interpretation lies with the reader(listener)...

BTW, that is why I spoke of that earlier...

So while your intent may not be to punish her, choose those words carefully....

Right now, just you being this new, self enlightened, not so much of an asshat guy, could be construed as punishing her...


Time, self work, consistent actions....those are your best friend

Best case, is that you have no expectations when you talk with her. You weren't' expecting to be "married" on your first date were you ?

Just be you...


Also, while you are doing this...

She isn't buying the actions at first either...

She is gonna wonder, why ? how ? when ?

And more importantly ??

Why did it have to come to this, for this to happen....


I'm gonna add to Mules' tagline a bit for you...

Integrity, Strength, and Honor....

and maybe sprinkle on a touch of humility from time to time : )

[ericmsant2]

CT

I do wish to ask, is this where the truth meets the training? Where I am at? Where one is just one?

The short answer is YES. At the end of the day, being able to just be YOU and feeling comfortable with that is the place to be. To know that your words, statements, actions are consistent with you being open and honest (i.e. no passive aggressive, no hidden agenda) is ……imo, perfect.

rather where you just know what you can express of your belief in you and know what you say, in the face of whatever you face, is going to come out like you mean it, because you do?

Exactly!

yet show me that I still have work to hit the target.

Be gentle with yourself. This journey imo, never really ends. I believe that as people we continue to grow and evolve. You may find that you have mastered one thing today…and then months later realize that you still have a little work to do in an area or two.

Ether way, my dad always told me, "your name is all you ever really leave behind, it's up to you how they speak it"

Your dad was a smart man.

Peace,
Eric

[CT1118]

What about it worked ? And who did it work for ???

I believe my demeanor worked and the honesty of my answers coming through not just words, but body language, character, vocal tone. Hell, the biggest could have been just not responding to her email. It worked for me in that nothing about me was fake or trying or hoping. I was just talking as me and I felt comfortable.

I do understand E's points on language quite clearly. There was a tone of direction in there which was certainly not intended. Perhaps looks harsher in the written as opposed to the spoken, but the point is taken. May have even been subconscious.

C, when we come through this via the DB route, we become so much more enlightened in how we respond rather than react, we become aware of our communication, we are light years ahead of our WAS's in that regard...

Whatever she has been doing for all of these months, I highly doubt that SHE has been working on becoming as self enlightened as you have...

No, to the level I have, no, at least as far as I know, no. The closet I have heard her say, She has a new director who, from what I was told, is very much into business theory and assigned her to read a book. She has told me about how the book redefines accountability, victim mindset, motivations, and action ownership...from a business leader vantage point. However, she told me she is beginning to see how it applies to her self. For her own health, I am glad she gets something out of it.

You responding as the new you ?

Catharsis

You have to be careful on how you present yourself to her. You have to walk a razor's edge with your words. That is why it is so important to allow your actions to speak for you, and to be consistent with them.

Your words have to power to cut her deeply, not your intent, yet like we discussed before ? The interpretation lies with the reader(listener)...

BTW, that is why I spoke of that earlier...

So while your intent may not be to punish her, choose those words carefully....

Right now, just you being this new, self enlightened, not so much of an asshat guy, could be construed as punishing her...

Point well taken. Reminders are good.

Time, self work, consistent actions....those are your best friend

Best case, is that you have no expectations when you talk with her. You weren't' expecting to be "married" on your first date were you ?

Just be you...

Feels pretty cool to be me now actually. Son was sick today. Souse took him to school despite this. I drove 25 mi. from work to see him at lunch. Teachers said he perked up and was acting better. I checked him out anyway and took him to lunch. In the restaurant, he asked me to do this funny voice I do with him (really just a bad impression of my German relatives). We were laughing and he was doing his version back at me. Really funny guy, my son. I realized later that in that moment with him I was completely present. I had no other thoughts of anything but what he and I were doing. Present moments are rare for me, but something I have sought. Found one of them today.

Also, while you are doing this...

She isn't buying the actions at first either...

She is gonna wonder, why ? how ? when ?

True

And more importantly ??

Why did it have to come to this, for this to happen....

It's like there was a training camp on things to say.

I'm gonna add to Mules' tagline a bit for you...

Integrity, Strength, and Honor....

and maybe sprinkle on a touch of humility from time to time : )

Epistemic motivation sir. Appreciate you as always.