New LBH with WAW/Possibly WW, help Part 2

[nutts]

Link to Old Thread

Recap: W told me ILYBNILWY and believes D is only answer, a week later, I find she has PA while on vacation, and continued to have EA over text/calls. I exposed A to OM's W, and it broke up the A and included W getting harrassed by OM, OM's W, and OM'w W's Friend. Harrassment has stopped. W and I have interacted much, but she's still acting distant and non-communicative.

Update: came home form work, W was on couch, just sitting there, I ask her how her day was with our S, single word responses at best. She was just sitting there, curled up, with the house a mess. I said, you look pitiful there, she said I'm depressed, leave me alone. So, I did, and she went upstairs.

Ate dinner with S, played with S, watched Peppa with S, bathed, and put S to bed, we had a good time, I love my boy more than anything.

Afterwards, I went to W's bedroom (old guest room), asked if she wanted to watch anything (no), do anything (no), talk abut anything. She said, only if you want to...I said, well, not really, then she said, we should talk about finances.

OK, I asked her to get out the papers she copied. I go through them, most of it's junk, but there's also substance in there. We go over it, I tell her the things she missed (I can't be dishonest about these things, don't ask me to), we talk abut how hard it is to break up 401K's, she talks about down-sizing her car.

Nothing is really settled at all, I guess she just understands the amount we need to break up, including the house, and it's fairly substantial.

She says, I just want to take it step at a time, find a place 1st, and go from there. I said, I'd like us to just slow down for a bit, and stay where we are. She says, for how long? I said, I don't know...a month before we start things?

She says, that's too long, I don't want to go to any Thanksgiving stuff with ur family, you can just take Hayden and bring him back.

I said nothing, and then just said, well, anything else? She said no, and I left.

Needless to say, I was hoping for better. She's still dead set on divorce I think. I know she's still unhappy with the end of A, and depressed, so that isn't helping any. I'm just going to try and delay, continue to detach, 180, and see what happens.

Thanks all, and good night.

[doodler]

I'm just going to try and delay, continue to detach, 180, and see what happens.

nutts,

Trying to delay the divorce is kind-of a pursuing behavior. I'm not recommending that you try to speed things up, but surely your wife knows she's still got you where she wants you (i.e. plan B).

I don't have any specific advise about what you should do, but maybe a vet will stop by and give you some good input.

[Georgia Bulldogs]

Needless to say, I was hoping for better. She's still dead set on divorce I think. I know she's still unhappy with the end of A, and depressed, so that isn't helping any. I'm just going to try and delay, continue to detach, 180, and see what happens.

She's in withdrawal. Hopefully it sticks. OM is likely going through it too and it's not uncommon at all for them to reach out to each other secretly by whatever means they can even if it's only to check in with each other and see how the other is coping or whatever other emotion is running through their mind. Again, closure contact is dangerous. They get to talking and feeling SOOO good they THINK that it's an indication they HAVE TO be together and the affair goes back on. I know you THINK it's over, but they are both in withdrawal and their brains are scrambling for excuses to alleviate their emotional pain.

Delay is your friend right now.

Notice last week she wanted to move out/separate/negotiate and have it all figured out quick. Now, she's not that enthusiastic about having any conversation on the topic, is overwhelmed and is thinking she can only manage one step at a time. Don't help her with those steps. Don't enable her basically walking out on you and your son over some stupid other man that clearly didn't love her like she thought and went running back to his wife the second his wife found out. He used her and then had the audacity to criticize her.

below I'm pasting in the thing I mentioned on your last thread regarding Sandi's 37 rules expanded upon and tailored for betrayed husband's like you. I apologize for errors, typo's and grammar. I went kind of quick through this figuring I'd have more time to edit later --- especially near the end when I found myself repeating myself repeating myself again and again.



BULLDOG'S NUANCES TO SANDI'S 37 RULES ---> FOR BETRAYED HUSBANDS

Basically here's my comments, suggestions and ideas regarding how betrayed husband's might consider utilizing and applying Sandi's 37 Rules to their situations. It's really not a repudiation of the "rules" themselves, but rather a supplement to them. They are impossible to do strictly anyway as they often self-contradict. Mostly I find the abbreviated rules as written, without context and applied together often just end up enabling the typical conflict avoiding betrayed husband to sit there doing nothing versus being more manly (however he wants to define that term for himself) and standing up for himself and his kids actually fighting strategically for his wife and LEADING his wife away from sin versus just waiting for her to walk away from sin all on her own. Your mileage may vary. I'm not a professional counselor.

1.Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore! This turns the spouse completely off!

This is a necessary directive to almost every betrayed husband that wants to save their marriage. Nearly every betrayed husband's first reactions to discovering the affair is scrambling around trying to get their wife back by chasing them everywhere begging them to end their affair NOW and begging them for another chance, etc. Desperation is never advisable. It does make you appear weak and adds canon fodder for the wayward wife and other man to talk badly about you. You're also likely learning "reasoning" with a active wayward wife is pretty impossible. The woman you've loved isn't there. Her singular focus is now on OM so your "reason" and "logic" goes in one ear and out the other. She mostly be nicer if you enable her affair and harsher if you resist it. However, wayward spouses are not robots. They have good days and bad. They have moments of a little self-reflection and cracks in the facade. An affair is a very difficult relationship to maintain. It has absolutely no foundation underneath it. It is built upon lies and deceit. Distrust is rampant. Throughout the process there are times a nuanced betrayed husband CAN pursue and, to some extent reason (or, at least plant some logic seeds that may grow later) with their wayward wife. Women love to talk and a wayward wife might be available from time to time for some interesting in-depth discussions about things with their betrayed husband. See, their marriage, though rocky and they want out, is, at least REAL. It is/was built upon a foundation of love and trust at one time and has a real legitimate history behind it. It's not a pretend relationship. That MIGHT provide effective ways for a smart betrayed husband to kind of chisel his way into and, if nothing less, make the OM nervous about all the time his "girlfriend" is spending with her husband. OM knows you are the #1 threat to his relationship. Plus, woman (in general) seldom "pursue" their man. The occasional pursuit, even if you are shot down, communicates that you are fighting for them, care about them, love them and want them. You've just got to take being shot down confidentially in stride versus sulking, crying and begging. This is very hard to do in practice but once the affair is over and you are no longer dealing with a wife getting her needs met by the OM, she need to get her needs met somewhere and as long as you're trying to save your marriage might as well meet them as best you can.

2. No frequent phone calls to spouse.......let him/her be the one to call you. Then don't try to hang on to your spouse through conversation.....instead, you say good-bye first.


This "say goodbye first" technique is straight out of the Pick Up Artist (PUA) Community. It's a pop-psychology strategy for attracting women in bars and other single scenes. It supposedly works like this. You give them focused attention for a bit, which they like and then be sure to cut them off first. Stop talking, hang up, walk away. Leave them missing you, hoping you'd continue talking with them versus getting bored or frustrated and feeling trapped in the 10th serious conversation of the night that you won't let them out of. It's not horrible advice because you probably have crap you need to get done and phone calls aren't nearly as productive as face to face contact. Don't keep texting them either except for good reason or to keep them engaged. You can't ever have a meaningful dialogue in text and some things can be used against you if you put it in writing -- in court or the court of public opinion. But don't cut the conversation short if your wife is spilling her guts out to you and trying to have an important conversation herself.

3. Do not point out good points in marriage or try to get him/her to read marriage books, look at your M pictures, etc. Especially, do not get him/her to read the DB/DR book. That is for you only!


I agree that handing a wayward wife books and marriage materials before you get to "no contact" is a waste of time and energy and makes you appear pretty weak and manipulative. However, letting her find or stumble upon pictures, a book or an article that she thinks YOU are looking at, reading and making notes within can be helpful and, hopefully, she'll look/read it because she'll want to know what (garbage, she'll think) you are filling your head with. Generally way wards avoid looking at things or reading things that don't support their wayward behavior because it makes them feel bad, ashamed, etc. They SHOULD BE ashamed it's just not effective for you to shame them directly. You just want to be careful not to lead her back here to your help source.

4. Do not follow your spouse around the house like a puppy dog trying to get his/her time and attention.


True. Don't "puppy dog" her but, to the extent you can, stick around her as much as you can. Idle time to a wayward wife is time to stew upon and think about her affair and affair partner. The more time you keep her busy talking or watching something or doing something the better. Marathon watch some new netflix series with her. Anything to distract from life. Waywards love escaping and IF you are getting "no contact" she's going to be in withdrawal for a few weeks or month(s). You don't want to talk to her seriously during this period for long because it'll be hurtful to you. Cut off conversations and try to either distract her or go have fun. If your marriage seems like it's going to end anyway, then you two can at least have some last moments of fun while you are ending it. Ask for a timeout or a break from all this seriousness, how about you -- let's just go for some beers as though we have no problems and if either of us gets negative they have to do a shot.

5. Do not encourage talk about the future. They don't want to think about a future with you at the moment, so stay clear of that subject.


I agree. Your wife can't envision being in love and having a loving marriage again with you ever so talking about the future doesn't help because it just makes her focus on the incomprehensible. She can't understand that her feelings could change back because she's so sure of her feelings. You don't have to teach her this...because living in the now is a better strategy of approaching recovery anyway. Just don't worry about trying to explain that her feelings might change and focus on "Let's have fun together today and do stuff together today and just do that for awhile". Waywards like kicking the can down the street and avoiding tough choices, so don't push choices she's not ready to make yet. You aren't going to talk her into having feelings.

6. Do not ask for help from family members or friends. Don't discuss private matters with them that would upset your spouse.


Yes ---> but only if and when you have "no contact". Otherwise, friends and family are needed desperately. But after "no contact", waywards have a difficult time adjusting back to reality and building your marriage is something done by spending as much alone time together as possible. Outsiders just need to be kept away, especially anyone that might give your wife a hard time. Since you cherish your wife it's now your job to protect her from the judgement of others. Her sins were against you and once she repents (and then and only then can you forgive) she's no longer wayward and you should see to it that no one treats her as such.

7. Do not ask for reassurances (That is showing neediness and being clingy.) Show self-respect and self confidence.


Your wife and what she does with her vagina in no way defines you as a man. It's brave of you to stand up for your family and fight for her when conflict avoiding and enabling is what most men in your position would do. You are repentant and whole in God. You don't need anyone elses approval. You are enough and you are the perfect God given gift for your wife. After "no contact" she should be on the road back home to you so do not let her break your outward confidence, masculinity and self confidence. Do not look to her to give it to you. You will be OK no matter how this turns out. That's one reason to occassionally snoop, because then you don't need to hound her for promises and assurances of "no contact" you'll just know (but you've got to control any urges to constantly snoop because it can become overwhelming and hurtful to you). However, it's OK to express that her behavior has "DEVASTATED" you and change you to the core probably just like whatever you've done, probably did to her. You don't have to lie and act all happy about things because you might actually communicate you don't really care about her at all and, instead, you just want to win and keep her as a possession. You can be vulnerable but avoid the sappy and clingy and bounce out (see rules above) of it without torturing her.

8. Do not buy gifts to make "brownie points". (Can't buy his/her love and affection.)


This is true but there are things you can suggest or buy that might entice them a bit sometimes. Your marriage could certainly use a fresh start in a new home across town from OM (if OM lives nearby) anyway so why not suggest undertaking some home projects to fix things up TOGETHER so you can put the house on the market next spring or summer and get a new better house??? Notice the emphasis on the word "together". Plus, you might spend some savings on a gift or something for her as an apology for not being a great gift giver before and promising to do better should she give your marriage a chance (recall, if you do end up divorced, she'll take half the cash anyway and blow it so might as well blow some now when it might help). Maybe a promise of a new wedding ring set or something if you renew your vows next year. Just check your expectations and don't be sappy or overly romantic doing it. She's not romantically in love with you right now so romantic gestures will get you eye rolls, remind her how much her feelings aren't there reciprocating your love and won't be attractive.

9. Do not schedule dates together at this point. (That is pursuing.) Save for later when the R is much better.

No "dates' but nights off to have fun during this difficult emotional times will FEEL like dates (hopefully, just don't make them out to be dates). Go to LOUD clubs/bars or LOUD concerts -- NOT the quiet corner booth of some romantic restaurant. You WANT to occupy her time and get out and about distracting her from idle moments.

10. Do not spy on spouse by checking emails, phone bills, etc. (Not good for you and will make matters worse.)

This is a difficult one. Betrayed wives can often naturally keep their newly former wayward husband's in line. Such wayward husbands are fighting to save their marriages. Wayward wives are different. They "recover" kicking and screaming, defiant and unremorsefull (initially). Wayward husband's will often volunteer accountability whereas wayward wives will not become transparent even if the affair really is over. In addition, a betrayed husband demanding accountability just comes off as insecure, lacking confidence on top of controlling (a typical wayward rationalization). Sometimes you need information to win the war for your wife and family just to confirm you have "no contact" but checking all the time and obsessively is unhealthy for you. I find that each betrayed spouse needs to determine this balance themselves. You need to be healthy yourself and over monitoring can be a problem as well. Once you have "no contact' you can back off mostly and just look for clues on occassion and if your gut tells you something is off ---- inspect what you expect". Also, do not get caught. It's bad for any custody/divorce filing should it go that way and it angers them and makes them feel controlled and manipulated. Once your marriage is priced, you should both feel ok with any consentual snooping of each other anytime because if you can't hold your spouse accountable for their behavior, who will?

11. Do not say "I Love You" (It is being "pushy" and trying to make your spouse say it back to you......he/she will despise you for it.)

Agree. Unless you're hysterically bonding in early recovery having tons of intense sex but even then, they aint super in love with you yet so it's still something to say sparingly.


12. Act "as if" you are moving on with your life with or without them and that you are going to be okay. Keep a good attitude.

You ARE going to be Ok. But there's a fine line between being aloof and being a complete uncaring tool acting like you hardly care anymore.

13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive at all times! In other words, be the best you can be and look the best you can look at all times. Even when wearing jeans and T-shirt, wear good cologne, b/c it does cause the spouse to take notice.

Yup -- clean up -- shower often -- get some new clothes and new cologne. Your old smells probably annoy your wife now so new fragrances and new body wash will help

14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse to see what kind of mood he/she is in or what he/she is going to do or say ñ get busy, think of things to do. Go to church, go out with friends, etc. in order to get a life for yourself without waiting on your wife/husband.....but it is okay to invite them, just don't act as if it will change your plans if they do or don't go.

NOOOOOOO - this doesn't work well with wayward wives. Now don't sit around waiting for them all the time. Do keep busy. Going out some is fine but once you get what you believe is "no contact" and they are in withdrawal, you want to stick to them like glue (in a non-obstrussive manner). It's fairly easy because once the affair ends, they generally behaved like a depressed teenager and without the constant text messaging and face timing, they have tons of extra free time on their hands but little desire to leave the couch/house. Stick around for a bit and try, best you can, to occupy their time and just be around while not hounding them or forcing conversations. Just be around, picking up the slack while they actually grieve the end of their affair (I've done it - it's easier to say than to do - takes supernatural empathy that she'll hopefully recognize one day as the most extreme demonstration of cherishing her she's every going to receive). Too much idle time leads to them feeling further neglected and starving for attention. They will surely either reach out to OM or look for a surrogate (like another OM, or Facebook, or blogging, or wherever they can escape and get some of their needs met).

15. When at home with your spouse, (if you usually start the conversation---then don't, wait for him/her) then, be rather scarce or with your words, but don't sound rude or too short like you are mad. If your spouse asks what's wrong....just say "nothing" and have a pleasant expression on your face. Keep it short and simple. Don't get into an argument! Stay polite and don't act like you are pouting. Use poise and class. This does not mean to act like you aren't speaking, but don't be overly talkative.

Kind of. Listen more but be availabile to talk as much as she'll talk. Don't force conversations but tend to listen and listen some more with a NEUTRAL disposition because you will be OK either way, YOU understand what's going on and you are just trying to understand what she's thinking and help her with her life. You know what you want and what you need to do.

16. If you are in the habit of asking your spouse his/her whereabouts, ASK THEM NOTHING!! No matter what time he/she comes home! You are giving them space and asking no questions! You enjoy your time with your kids, friends, etc. Remember, you are getting a life, also.

Okay. But if they are seeing their affair partner, you shouldn't tolerate it by not saying anything and just allowing it without objection. That's simply enabling. Object but don't yell and scream. Don't punch walls. Request respect.

17. You need to make your partner think that you have had an awakening and, as far as you are concerned, you are going to move on with your life, with or without your spouse.

The dream of every wayward wife is an amicable divorce with the two of you being good friends and co-parenting perfectly while she gets primary custody of the kids, the house and you get some visitation, at her convenience (maybe weekends so she can go out and party with OM?). This doesn't wake up the typical wayward wife. It's nice for the betrayed spouse to realize they will be OK with or without their wayward spouse, but the "make your partner think" is just obvious manipulation and dishonest. I think a man should behave more authentically versus acting likes he's OK with the situation, when clearly he is not. Besides most wayward wives will be thrilled you finally "got it" and are ready to "move on".

18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what he/she will be missing. (But never ask him/her if he/she has noticed any changes!!) This is important! If you do, then you have blown it.

If you were a neglectful spouse, to whatever degree how will "pulling back" ever be noticed as a change or as something negative? Sure they may notice you aren't begging them anymore, but it's not like they liked "begging desperate" you much nor will they miss that guy. This just gives them a reprieve from feeling ashamed of themselves and a chance to avoid their conscience while you confirm your initial changes (desperate as they were, they did demonstrate care versus neglect) were just a short term manipulative act (just like all your promises in the past).

19. No matter what you are feeling TODAY, only show your spouse happiness and contentment. This can confuse some of them b/c it is not what they expected. Show your spouse someone he/she would want to be around all the time, somebody that can be attractive and fun to be with. That somebody is you! Don't overkill in your attempts to outshine another person your spouse may be having an A with (if there is OP in the picture) to the point of looking like your attempts are "fake" b/c your spouse will see through all of that.

This is mostly fine but instead of faking such feelings, strive to actually become happy and content with whatever the final outcome is going to be. Being authentic is attractive whereas acting happy, then blowing up later when that feeling overcomes you or you become frustrated because you're ACT isn't seemingly having the desired effect (your wife is now gleeful you seemingly finally agree with her that the marriage is over)

20. All questions about marriage should be put on hold, until your spouse wants to talk about it (which may be a while) so this takes patience on your behalf.

Yes. While the affair continues there is no marriage really to speak of and the future is completely up in the air. But withdrawing wayward wives are often available to talk and talk and talk. Try to listen. Talk marriage but don't talk divorce and don't ever negotiate with a terrorist

21. Never lose your cool! Don't let your spouse trap you into a fight. Don't take her/his bait.....leave the room or the house for a while, if you have to, in order to avoid a fight.

Dr. Bob Huizenga refers to this as "charging neutral". Your wayward wife, especially while actively wayward but even for awhile thereafter while pursuing separation and divorce, will certainly attempt to bait you into fights and arguments. This makes her feel better. It alleviates her rising guilt and crushing conscience and/or shame. It feeds her constant need to regionalize and justify her continuing behavior. She wants you to fight her. To be mean. To show your "true colors". To prove your "changes" are just an act and, even were she to consider recovering, your anger would continually come out to punish her indefinitely. In the alternative, she could pick a fight, call the police and get a restraining order against you giving her a big leg up in the divorce/custody fight to come.

22. Don't be overly enthusiastic, don't over-kill; in anything you do b/c it will come across as fake.

So would strict over enthusiastic adherence to many of the above "rules". You are God's perfect gift for your wife. You are enough. Go back to being more you rather than the begging desperate loser after discovery of her affair and rather than the disappearing guy acting like he doesn't much give a crap if she divorces him.

23. Do not argue about how your spouse feels about something (it only makes his/her feelings more negative.) Only they know how they feel!

sure. But in all my reading about affairs and infidelity at that time allowed me to actually know how my wife felt at that time. There was no argument. She thought she loved OM and didn't love me. Just got to be confident within yourself that her feelings can and will change and, if they don't, you'll be better off divorced from her anyway. Debating feelings is pointless because they will constantly change anyway.

24. Be patient......very, very patient. Give your spouse space and time. When you pull back, it will draw them towards you. It feels opposite of what you want to do, but it works!

Patience is important. Understanding recovery and clearing out the stinking wayward thinking takes a lot of time. A depressed wayward wife isn't going to be "drawn" to much of anything so while you "give them space and time" that doesn't equate to disappearing and leaving them alone in their idle corrupt thoughts. Hang around. Pick up the slack at home and give the "space and time" by not hounding them with "we need to talk about us". It's also not very healthy to give "space and time" indefinitely. Eventually, there needs to be a "recovery" of the marital "RELATIONSHIP". A relationship is reciprocal and not entirely about the feelings, needs and wants of the formerly wayward wife.

25. Listen carefully to what your spouse is really saying to you. Look them in the eyes when they talk to you. Do not interrupt them when they are speaking and stop what you may be working on to look at them when they talk. This shows them that you really care about what they are saying.

take the cotton out of your ears and put it in your mouth.

26. Learn to back off, shut up and walk away when you want to speak out (or scream and yell).

Of course. Just as your porn use and neglect wasn't an intentional act of hatred and contempt towards your wife, her affair, though a hugely devastating behavior, wasn't done "at you". You can get mad all you want but ultimately her repentance and remorse is a lot more likely to happen if you express empathy, love and understanding. Your wife had an affair because she lacked proper boundaries and allowed another man to inappropriately meet and continue to meet her emotional needs. The circumstance of your marriage made her more vulnerable to such behavior but ultimately she alone made the choice to cheat and needs to apologize and make amends for doing so. Repenting, remorse and making amends is her side of the street that you aren't in charge of. That's between her and God (her "higher power" lol) . Getting angry doesn't move you along the path of reconciliation at all.

27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil). This is for your health's sake.

yes.

28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly. Read self help books, inspirational books or listen to tapes. They are for you only.

Include her if she wants. Women buy many many more self-help books then men which is an indication they, generally, don't mind them. If she'll engage, engage her. Don't teach her but discuss whatever you are reading and listening to with an open mind. Even if her opinions about certain subjects is harsh, silly or downright offensive - at least she's sharing an opinion with you and talking with you. Conversations are good. Arguments and lectures - not so much.

29. Know that if you can do 180's, your smallest CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.

Avoid writing your feelings down thinking you can express yourself more clearly by doing so. You are understandably an emotional basket case right now so emotional letters, emails, texts of anger, joy, hurt, love, whatever will just make you appear too feminine and wimpy. Over sentimentality is a mistake.

30. Do not be openly show that you are "desperate" or "needy" even when you are hurting more than ever and truly feel desperate and needy. This is a large turn-off for your spouse.

Sure. But this doesn't mean you can never express devastation. I've witnessed many recent wayward wives, including my own, express a need to see their husband cry. They want confirmation that your attentiveness and new found love for them is real and not just some controlling manipulative act to get them back in line and under your thumb/control (where you'll just neglect them again). I find that within the concept of "charging neutral" you can and should express, very occasionally, how absolutely devastated you felt/feel by her affair and betrayal without being desperate and needy while saying it. A real man can cry and express emotion without being a pathetic loser. Maybe not daily or even weekly but being completely stoic isn't authentic and a real man is nothing if he's not authentic (or strategic - game theory)

31. Do not focus on yourself when communicating with your spouse, instead, focus on them.

Yeah, sure...waywards are self consumed anyway so this shouldn't be hard to do. But, even if things seem to get better for her, it's important to not completely rugsweep your feelings and needs too. I didn't recover my marriage just to make my wife happy or just "for the kids", I eventually had to stand up for myself and demand an awesome marriage for me too.

32. Do not believe anything they say and 50% of what they do. Your spouse will speak in absolute negatives because he/she is hurting and scared.

"hurting and scared"? really? Was this added by Sandi or was this part of MWD original concepts? I find active wayward wives speak in absolute negatives because it's easier to be negative and dismiss/rationalize their marital relationship away than to change their selfish entitled wayward cheating behavior. They remain negative after the affair because they have convinced themselves, necessarily, that OM is/was their soulmate and their husband is not, never was and never will be their soulmate. After OM dumps them (as is often the case when OM's wife finds out about the affair) she may be hurting and scared about her future and considering recovery seems scary but she's not "hurting" as much as she's mad. Mad at OM. Mad at Husband (if he'd been doing his job she never would have NEEDED to cheat in the first place). If she's "hurting" at all - it's about the losing the affair fantasy. If "no contact" sticks, that should only last a couple weeks.

33. Do not give up no matter how dark it is or how bad you feel.

I think it's healthy to set goals and a time limit on this up front. There's only so long a human male can endure trying to save their marriage without expectation or results. A deadline (3 months, 1 year, 2 years) helps motivate a betrayed husband because even if it's a long way off, there is a finish line. Kind of an individual thing. Adultery is a biblical out. A betrayed husband doesn't have to stick around 1 day after discovery. Your time spend trying to save your wife is a gift. Consider wisely how much you want to spend of yourself on such gift.

34. Do not ask your spouse if he/she has noticed your changes. Those changes are for you and for the rest of your life...with or without your spouse. If it is just to get your spouse back...they won't last and the same problems will return.

If you are doing it right, this won't be a problem because who you are as a person, man, husband, father, etc. doesn't require her to notice or need affirmation and she'll notice all on her own.

35. Do not send several TM's or emails throughout the day unless absolutely necessary.

Unless you've been neglectful and she seems to like your attentiveness and fun communications. Your supposed to communicate with your wife regularly. Don't hound her for attention but just text/email like a normal person.

36. It is best to stay away from the bar scenes where other problems easily arise.

Unless your wife is willing to go with you, then loud bars and other venues are great because it allows you to have fun versus the constant pressure and need to "have a serious relationship talk". Wayward wives like to escape so sometimes being the lighthouse and guiding your lost wayward wife back home involves heading out into the ocean with her and getting lost in a fun night together.

37. Do not backslide from your hard earned changes

Yup. What you do becomes who you are. Old habits are hard to break. It's very easy to backslide, get dismayed and frustrated especially if you allow your expectations to get out of control. In almost every situation there are good nights and bad. It's hard to be even keeled and check yourself after a great night together talking or whatever, but, as is so often the case, your wife BELIEVES that her feelings are never going to come back for you so she'll be horrible to you the next day just to put her reality back in place. Change and be authentic for you, because no matter what - your life is changing.

[nutts]

Bulldog,

Thanks for all the information. It's a lot to process, I'll be sure and go over it a few times, and try and see exactly where I fit in this.

As always, I appreciate you helping a total stranger, it means a lot.

especially near the end when I found myself repeating myself repeating myself again and again.

I LOL'd, good one

[MrBond]

While I agree with some of the points made, I would take GB's suggestions with a grain of salt. Especially the distract them and sticking to the WAS part if their A has ended. I've seen time and time again on here that it just irritates them more. I know in my situation, it definitely didn't help until I backed off and let her think. that's when she came back.

You're going to have to take these suggestions, and yes these are only suggestions and see what works best in your situation. It'll take a little while, but you'll get the hang of it.

[nutts]

You're going to have to take these suggestions, and yes these are only suggestions and see what works best in your situation. It'll take a little while, but you'll get the hang of it.

I understand totally. I realize, not everyone will agree 100% what works, and I know some things work better for some people and no sitch is exactly the same.

I'm going to do my best to try and understand what might work the best for me using all the advice I get.

Thanks.

[Vanilla]

The one important thing is to do that which works.

Outing the OW that I outed didn't help at all, I wished I hadn't as there was significant ranting and damage. That was in my sitch and I support MrBond in this.

In fact stop leading and 'trying', this is driving your WW away in my opinion.

Concentrate on you and healing you. There is enough to do on this.

Frankly I would like to read your action plan and goals for developing you and healing your stuff.

V

[nutts]

In fact stop leading and 'trying', this is driving your WW away in my opinion.

Concentrate on you and healing you. There is enough to do on this.

I guess when I said "I'll try", I didn't mean I'd be actively doing anything; in this case try meant, I'm going to continue down my current path (which is more in line with sandi's rules right now), see how things progress. Maybe I'll throw in something GB suggested, see what that does.

Frankly I would like to read your action plan and goals for developing you and healing your stuff.

I suppose the actions I'm taking are trying to get out more with my friends, do more things with my S alone, increasing my exercising, eating right, while following sandi's rules.

As for goals, I just read the DR section on this, and I was kind of confused. The goals she stated had more to do with reactions from my W, what I wanted to see from her, but I didn't really get that. I guess my only real goal is to GAL and see what happens.

Can you describe what sort of goals you think I should be setting now? Any help is appreciated.

Thanks.

[Vanilla]

The best goals are those that develop you and get you to where you want to be.

If you are unsure what those are then consider where you want to go and then how you can get there.

Each of us has a unique sitch and our own goals.

I started measuring myself on Sandi rules on a base of 1 to 10.

So what changes do you want to make and what actions do you need to get there.

V

[nutts]

I'm sitting here, by myself, S is in bed, W went out with a friend. She didn't wear her wedding/engagement ring when she left, and I didn't say anything. Honestly, I'm not even sure if I care. I immediately took mine off, put it on my key ring. I looked in her jewelry box, and I didn't see the rings. So, I guess she has them in her purse, I don't know. Anyway, I put my ring back on, I'm not ready for a confrontation yet.

But, all day, I had a great day, took S to dinner (W didn't want to go), we had fun at Mexican place, came home, W says she's going with friend, is that OK, sure I say.

And, I'm becoming unfeeling towards her. I always have her in the back of my mind, but what she does, it's not bothering me near as much as it should. I wonder if this is detachment, or if it's a lack of feelings.

There's no doubt, I want my marriage to succeed, if only for my S. But, if I didn't have S, would I want my M to continue? I'm honestly not 100% sure.

Since I stop the porn/masturbation 3 weeks ago, I've been extra horny today (byproduct of rebooting my brain from porn), and I've been daydreaming about sexing my wife, and I'd love to do it, but I've also been thinking about other women too.

I know I'm rambling, but I just wanted to express my feelings. I'm coming to grips with all of this, and I honestly think our M is doomed. I'm going to keep following the DR guide, as it's a good guide even if we end in D.

Vanilla, I'll have to think about the goals, my mind isn't real clear right now, but thanks for the feedback.

Good night DBer's