New LBH with WAW/possibly WW, need help.

[MoveFrwd]

but I couldn't help but say something.

This is kind of strange to say. Are you not in control of your words? Why did you HAVE to say something?

It just ate at me while I was driving. You're right of course, I didn't have to say anything, and I wish I hadn't. She got the pills, and that's all. Anything else is mind-reading I guess.

But you got an answer to it, right?

I got home, asked her why is she going back on it now, she says, because my periods are so heavy.

But then you didnt believe or....or needed more details or something...? If you werent going to believe the answer, why ask the question?

Thats the reason not to pry, in the end. If you arent going to like the response, then dont provide the stimulus.

[nutts]

You said early on that your W's reasons for being unhappy was the lack of sex and your inattentiveness. You said that you had "dealt" with it before. How?

I think you mis-read, I have not dealt with it before. Rather, after W told me ILYBNILWY, I introspected and saw how obvious it was she wasn't happy. I realized I wasn't spending near enough time with her and doing things with her, we weren't communicating well at all, and also realized I had a problem, and it turned out porn was the cause of (low libido, difficult to get erection during sex, etc. lots of info online about this) which caused our sex life to be non-existent!

Once I came to these realization, I immediately studied how to overcome the porn problem (haven't looked nor touched myself since BD), and I opened up to W about all the issues. I admitted I played a huge part in her being unhappy (this was before I learned about the A), and I was going to work on me. And, at that point, I decided I'd get myself better.

The one thing that sticks me is, one of my problems was I didn't spend time with my W, nor communicated well; however, following Sandi's 37 rules, I do even less of that (little communication, and little time spent with her). I understand the point of Sandi's rules, and I think I have follow them to get her respect back, but at what level?

So, I am trying to better myself, and GAL. When I get DB/DR, I'll dig deeper.

Thanks.

[nutts]

But then you didnt believe or....or needed more details or something...? If you werent going to believe the answer, why ask the question?

Thats the reason not to pry, in the end. If you arent going to like the response, then dont provide the stimulus.

Yes, good points, thanks for filling me in.

[MrBond]

Actually your exact words we "we got past it". So I didn't misread.

"She gives me some crap about "didn't I tell you I wasn't happy about you playing on your computer" (she did, many years ago, before son, we got past it) "didn't I tell you a I wasn't real happy about our sex life" (she did, many years ago before our son). She says I had my chances."

In what ways did you "get past it"? In terms of the sex life, was the porn addiction before your son was born? What did you do when she told you she wasn't happy with the sex before your son was born? Did you just blow it off?

[MoveFrwd]

The one thing that sticks me is, one of my problems was I didn't spend time with my W, nor communicated well; however, following Sandi's 37 rules, I do even less of that (little communication, and little time spent with her).

A couple things:

1) I understand that it seems counter intuitive. You didnt spend much time with W, and now the advice is to spend LESS time with her. But really, do you think she WANTS to spend time with you? Shes asking for space. So the best thing you can do is give it to her.

2) You mention that you communicated poorly, and now you are saying that it is bad because you are communicating LESS. I would focus on making your communication effective (such as through validation) rather than increasing the quantity.

[nutts]

Actually your exact words we "we got past it". So I didn't misread.

"She gives me some crap about "didn't I tell you I wasn't happy about you playing on your computer" (she did, many years ago, before son, we got past it) "didn't I tell you a I wasn't real happy about our sex life" (she did, many years ago before our son). She says I had my chances."

In what ways did you "get past it"? In terms of the sex life, was the porn addiction before your son was born? What did you do when she told you she wasn't happy with the sex before your son was born? Did you just blow it off?

Oh, yeah. So, I cut down the PC use, and it was great for a while. However, about a year after our son was born, after we put our son down, more often than not she would tell me she's tired or something and was just going to watch TV in our MBR. As that happened more and more, I would go down and get on the PC more often after our S went to bed, so it came full circle again, and I should have realized it.

The sex thing, I went to a urologist, and, he said, physically, everything seems fine, here's some viagra. So, I took viagra, and that work OK, but there is no spontaneity with that, and our sex life dwindled. Obviously, we had sex many times trying to get pregnant, and we enjoyed it, but after pregnant, and after the child, neither of us really initiated sex, and I know my low libido was a huge cause of it (imagine, a guy not really chasing sex, and with a beautiful woman too (I'm not being biased, she is beautiful)), yet, I made excuses for it.

So, while we "got past it" the source of the problem wasn't revealed until I decided to stop making excuses, and look into my habit, and realized what it had been causing me to miss for so long. I accept the responsibility for this, and I am attacking it head on, and I expect to come out the other a better person.

[MrBond]

Ok so essentially before you just swept things under the rug and didn't really "listen" to WHY your W was telling you those things. Like a typical male, you thought there was a problem and "fixed" it. Problem is you only put a band aid to what was really going on.

So the next question is, are there any other actions you plan to do to push you further apart? Right now the challenge seems to be that because you exposed, the harassment your W is getting from the other people is going to be a constant reminder of shame caused by you and she will always see you in that light. Have you done anything to tell the OM and his W to back off?

[Vanilla]

My view isn't that your WW will have a further A, just that she may it's behavioural for waywards.

Vilification and distance is likely to increase the risk.

Truly address your issues.

I am thankful you are being honest, it's a great step and one which I admire greatly.

I would dearly like to see your list of actions and goals.

V

[Georgia Bulldogs]

Ok so essentially before you just swept things under the rug and didn't really "listen" to WHY your W was telling you those things. Like a typical male, you thought there was a problem and "fixed" it. Problem is you only put a band aid to what was really going on.

So the next question is, are there any other actions you plan to do to push you further apart? Right now the challenge seems to be that because you exposed, the harassment your W is getting from the other people is going to be a constant reminder of shame caused by you and she will always see you in that light. Have you done anything to tell the OM and his W to back off?

Her shame was NOT caused by you.

Her affair caused her shame.

Mr Bond is wrong. My advice is directly in line with author and owner of this website. You've got the books and you will read about the 180 plan and (hopefully somewhere in one of those books) "the last resort technique" as well, all on your own.

Here's an excerpt from MWD's blog about the last resort technique clearly indicating a 180 plan of completely ignoring and detaching from your wife AFTER the affair is over and she's inviting you over for dinner, isn't as cut and dry as Sandi's detach, act happy and ignore them list:

2) Your mate becomes curious.

S/he might start showing more interest in you, your whereabouts, and what you are up to in your life. Your spouse might even suggest you spend some time together to talk or do something enjoyable. It's also possible that your spouse might start asking you a lot of questions about your sudden changes. If any of these things begin to happen, here's my advice:

Be loving in return, but not overly excited or enthusiastic.
Accept some invitations to spend time together, but not all.
Do not ask any questions about your future together.
Be vague when asked questions about the changes in you. Say that you are just thinking things through.
Continue to be upbeat.
Do not say, "I love you"
Resist getting into conversations about your marriage.
Beat your spouse to the punch when it comes time to leave or separate from each other at the end of an activity. You set the tone for going your separate ways.

The general rule of thumb here is to be responsive to your partners new interest, but not too responsive. If you go overboard, your partner will get cold feet. I've seen it happen many times before. If you are excited that the last-resort technique is working, share it with a friend, write it in your journal, go for a run around the block, but don't wear your emotions on your sleeve.

You need to stay interested, but cool, until you are absolutely convinced that your spouse's renewed interest in saving your marriage has taken hold. Once you feel absolutely sure that this is so, you can test the waters by becoming more obvious about your desire to stay together. You can try discussing your future together and see what happens. If your spouse is receptive, you can continue to move forward slowly and begin to tackle the issues that drove you apart in the first place. If, on the other hand, you're met with reluctance, backpedal just as quickly as you can. Resume your interested but distant stance until things move in a more positive direction. This might take a whole lot longer that you would like, weeks, even months. However, you must be patient. As long as your spouse seems to be somewhat interested rather than pulling away, it's okay for your marriage to be in a holding pattern. It will try your patience, but what else do you have to do right now that could be as important as trying to save your marriage? Be patient.

3) Your spouse might have an overnight change of heart.

That is, s/he might want to abandon any thought of divorce and jump right back into things as if nothing had ever happened. This third possibility is the least likely, but it does happen occasionally. I have some advice for you if this does happen. Don't move too quickly! It's really important to pace yourselves. If you act as if nothing had happened between you, it's only a matter of time before your spouse will have second thoughts about the decision. You didn't get to this place of disharmony overnight and, as much as you'd like to forget that it had ever happened, you probably won't get things back on track overnight. So if you've been separated, don't jump right into being together again. If you've been emotionally miles apart, don't spend every waking minute at each other's sides and don't abandon all of your other interests. You have to back into your marriage cautiously. If you don't, and really deal with the problematic issues before you recommit, you might find yourselves in the same situation a few weeks or months down the road.

As you do the Last Resort Technique, it might be useful to keep a solutions journal. Keep track of any and all changes you see in your spouse or your marriage. And remember, you should look for small signs of change. This might include a spouse who is a little more talkative than before, or one who emails you for the first time in months, even if the email is mundane in content. If you are living under the same roof, a small change might consist of your spouse spending time in the same room as you when in the past. s/he has avoided your presence.

Keep your eyes open and be patient. You may be pleasantly surprised at the results. And if you need help sorting things out along the way

Here's a post I made in July 2015 to a poster named Defacto where, to some extent, Mr. Bond and I had a similar argument.

STBX starts to say how she has questioned this process many times and she has tried to call and talk to me about changing course. I ask her why she has had doubts. But then she turns on the spew and blames me for slandering her to all of her friends and making it uncomfortable for her at work. "This is on you." Etcetera etcetera.

I try my best to validate but she is only interested in shifting all the blame to me. I try to cordially end the call. I just don't have any more energy to listen to it anymore. I ask for her to take care of D4 because she has had a tough day.

Aargh. This day has went from bad to worse in a hurry.

I still think you have missed and keep missing opportunities and it's frustrating to me to watch you miss this under the banner of detaching.

Detaching, to me, means this "spew" won't/shouldn't really bother you anymore, not that you give her the silent treatment when she starts talking about your relationship. Your wife has months and months of rationalizations and justifications built up in her mind that she needs to work through before she can get to a place of being ready to accept responsibility for her choices. So what if she blames you and etc, etc, etc. Her words are only expressing her illogical "feelings" on the subject because taking full responsibility is just too hard to do at this moment. You are a logical thinker. She isn't. All you have to do is listen. You will get a lot of credit LATER for just listening to her say whatever mean thing she chooses to discuss with you. Half the time they don't even remember half the hateful stuff they say. They are just reaching for whatever they can, like a child, to make everything someone else's fault. She can blame you all she wants but your logic should be telling you "I'm rubber and she's glue, whatever she says to me, bounces off and sticks her".

Point is. Of course she's not ready. She's lost. She's not going to stumble upon the right words and give you assurances of anything. Even if she said "the right words" you'd be a fool to believe them YET anyway. As Michele Wiener Davis says "The general rule of thumb here is to be responsive to your partners new interest, but not too responsive." Whereas you are being almost completely NON-responsive. You asked one question and she started spewing and you demonstrated your conflict avoiding/emotionally unresponsive stance by evading, getting off the phone ASAP and, now, giving her the silent treatment.

I suggest you apologize to her for skipping out on the conversation and tell her, as she's aware, that you are a conflict avoider. Tell her that if you two are going to figure anything out it's going to involve some conflict and you aren't afraid of being emotionally vulnerable. Then ask her casually if she'd like to meet you somewhere specific (a restaurant or park) "to talk" sometime this week OR NOT. You'd be approaching this as essentially saying that YOU are doing her a favor and finally willing to talk to her...if she wants.

Please see that her first big objection above was "I TRIED to talk you to". This is now her most current rationalization and justification. SHE has tried and you aren't communicative so it's again, your fault. By generally offering to talk...you take that away.


NOW...if she ACCEPTS talking. Go back to your MWD LRT techniques. Meet with her but HAVE FUN. Be more GAL than serious. When it gets serious....JUST LISTEN. I prefer to say "tend to agree" versus "validate" because validation of wayward spew is just so hard to do sometimes where it's easier to NOT buy it, let it fly past you and say "Hmmmmm, I see", while seeming to nod your head up and down followed by a poignant or misdirecting question instead of a "validating" statement. It's not your job to "validate" spew and a wayward doesn't need you to say "yeah, you're right, it's all my fault". They don't REALLY believe half the stuff they say themselves. Anyway, heres the LRT suggestions"

1. Be loving in return, but not overly excited or enthusiastic.
2 Accept some invitations to spend time together, but not all.
3. Do not ask any questions about your future together.
4. Be vague when asked questions about the changes in you. Say that you are just thinking things through.
5. Continue to be upbeat.
6. Do not say, "I love you"
7. Resist getting into conversations about your marriage.
8. Beat your spouse to the punch when it comes time to leave or separate from each other at the end of an activity. You set the tone for going your separate ways.

You need to stay interested, but cool, until you are absolutely convinced that your spouse's renewed interest in saving your marriage has taken hold. Once you feel absolutely sure that this is so, you can test the waters by becoming more obvious about your desire to stay together. You can try discussing your future together and see what happens. If your spouse is receptive, you can continue to move forward slowly and begin to tackle the issues that drove you apart in the first place. If, on the other hand, you're met with reluctance, backpedal just as quickly as you can. Resume your interested but distant stance until things move in a more positive direction. This might take a whole lot longer that you would like, weeks, even months. However, you must be patient. As long as your spouse seems to be somewhat interested rather than pulling away, it's okay for your marriage to be in a holding pattern. It will try your patience, but what else do you have to do right now that could be as important as trying to save your marriage? Be patient.

I certainly expect some detractors to come behind me telling you to stay the course you are seemingly already on. Keeping your distance and making her chase you. They care about you just as I do and want to protect you from further emotional pain but you've had a window of opportunity here to save the mother of your children from making the biggest mistake of her life for awhile now. I'm estimating that she's just about done "pursuing" you (way wards think THEY are the prize...she just had some big shot Doctor chasing her so she FEELS like she's the deal right now). I KNOW it's wholly inadequate. I know she's still thinking and saying very hurtful things right now. But detaching enough so you can get in there and hack the spew while BEING the cocky arrogant man who knows he's the best man in the world for her and she'd be a fool not to reciprocate eventually is the best way to go. On behalf of your daughter/children that you DO love more than life itself I urge you to TRY to win over your wife's cold heart by being a resilient confident man who's not afraid of a little conflict and complaining.

Turn your FEAR into FAITH. You can be her hero and save her...if YOU choose to be. Sure she can reject it but she'll never be able to tell anyone you didn't try or you gave up on her and your family.

Finally. While I certainly agree that betrayed spouses/husbands need to look at their behavior and clean up their side of the street, wayward wives have a way of blowing up every little thing you have ever done as a way of rewriting history to make this whole situation their betrayed husband's fault. Your inattentiveness and porn use and limited sex drive while there is a toddler in the house and you are BOTH worn out is very typical of many households. It might explain the situation a bit but it doesn't excuse or justify your wife taking off her clothes and having sex with another man. The IMMEDIATE problem and impediment to recovery remains her affair. If it's actually over and "no contact" is happening, then you've got a chance to save your marriage. That is what exposing to the OM's wife accomplished for you AND, apparently, it's given the OM's wife an opportunity to save her marriage as well. Mr. Bond lacked the wisdom, insight and courage to actually do what you did within just several days of discovery and it's the primary reason Mr. Bond took 2/3 years before he even got the chance to save his marriage (his wife kept working with the OM for 2 or 3 more years) . There is nothing on this website or in MWD's books, CD's, blogs, etc. that I can find that tells a betrayed spouse NOT to expose to the other affair partners spouse. To me it's like reporting a crime. When you witness a crime you have an obligation to step forward and report it. Doing so MAY result in consequences. You may have to report to the police station and court a few times, give reports and be subjected to cross examination. Every once in while stepping forward has resulted in threats and intimidation from the accused and/or his/her associates/family. Sometimes witnessed have even been killed. Still ~ stepping forward remains the right thing to do in a honorable God fearing society. No matter what happens, I've never met anyone who regretted telling the other affair partners spouse. While you work out your issues don't inadvertently own her devastatingly hurtful choices. That would be like you expecting her to own your porn use because she choose to ignore you and watch TV in "her" bedroom. Lead by owning your stuff, not by accepting blame for hers.

Finally, your wife is 100% absolutely free to separate from you and/or divorce you at any time she wants. Accepting that helps thwart behaving as a desperate begging fool. You'll be OK either way. Her loss.

[nutts]

journaling:

tonight was ok. came home, ate dinner with S while W took a shower. played with S watch peppa pig, and gave him over to W for her to bathe and put to bed.

afterwards, W came down, and we watched 2 shows together. not much talk really, although I did ask if she's still getting harassed from OMs side, she said no, I said u can block them all if u neeed, but she's pretty sure it's over.

afterwards, we went upstairs, she dried her hair in our bathroom while I was watching game tv. when she left, we said good night, and that was it.

no mention of looking at finances, or moving out or anything negative, so that's good I guess. and she didn't do any more work on the house either while at home all day.

A good friend do of mine, whom I confided in actually spoke to my W about us. his wife was WW and had 6 month long gone affair, while my buddy sacked it up. the difference is, his W didn't want to to break up the family. they're back together now. Anyway, he told her to take things slow, and told her his story.

I did tell know bout this until later, and I was pissed at 1st, he shouldve told me he was going to talk to her. afterwards, I think it may have done some good. he told me to just be cool, dont beg, etc. well see if guess.

good night DB family.