Quote: KAW, what have you done differently just lately to make CAW sit up and notice?
Thanks LnL for checking in ... and triggered another quandry I've dealing with in the last couple of weeks ... sometime tho when it comes to posting here the space between the ears just becomes a void ...
Lately ... say the last month or so, I've noticed that CAW is seems to be getting more needy overall and whenever I seem to pull back in doing something different it has an adverse effect and I wonder if that is what she means by us drifting apart now.
Quite frankly, I'm not sure how to address this ... I mean DBing teaches that us that being needy is not healthy, so how does one address a needy passive-aggressive WAW in a way that doesn't drive her away? The only thing I can think of at this point to make CAW sit up and take notice is to hold back on the amount of attention I give her, but whenever I done that its just seems to drive her more to wanting to be wiht OM. I'm really at a loss as to else to try at this point. Open to suggestions...
Quote: KAW, what have you done differently just lately to make CAW sit up and notice?
Well, I was wondering this same thing. You seem to identify what isn't working... if I'm following correctly, it's pulling back. So maybe scratch that one and find another "something different"?
Quote: I mean DBing teaches that us that being needy is not healthy, so how does one address a needy passive-aggressive WAW in a way that doesn't drive her away?
Not sure I agree with this, KAW. We're all "needy" to some extent... we all need something from our partners. Relying on that at the expense of meeting our needs in other ways can be unhealthy, expecting someone else to meet all our needs is unhealthy. And the PA way of getting them met, also not the healthiest (or most effective) way to go. But we can't just strike out all neediness as a bad thing.
But as for how to address their neediness in a healthy way that doesn't push them away... when they're not outright communicating their own needs... well, if I knew that answer, I'd probably be in a different place these days. It's a tough one.
I do wonder though, as someone who also used to get the laying silently in bed not asking for what they want signal-- whether you might make some progress in reading that signal, showing you see it, and pushing full ahead? Maybe run with it and be playful with it?
You might have been there and decided it goes nowhere or perpetuates the non-communication, but I'm wondering. It helped me, but it took me a while to get past my resentment of the whole approach to see that. Anyway, some food (or drink) for thought, maybe?
I agree with others about the boxes if you get to that bridge.
Why? Why do we do this so often... we have these internal dialogues "well, I know she wants sex, but she won't ask me for it, so, why should I give it to her?? She doesn't give it to me when I want it..." blah, blah, blah
FILL UP HER LOVE TANK at any opportunity.
It's not like you didn't want to... you WAITED until she was asleep... I mean, please...
Can I be ugly, blunt? What would OG have done?
Be the OG KAW... I know how you feel, believe me... but be the OG... jump her bones, especially when she is SIGNALLING you. You just gave her another sign that you are "drifting apart." In her mind, it was another signal... KAW no longer even understands when I want sex... And then you controlled the situation by having sex later.
Sweetie, she's sleeping nude with you. Make her feel loved at any opportunity. I'm glad you all had fun anyway.
I LOVE your advice, I think you are wonderful and I know you are in a terrible situation. But take advantage of any and all opportunities!!
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
I think you're getting lost in the process. You've been at this an awful long time. Perhaps it's time to step back and look at it with a beginner's mind.
It's a confusing time.
For BOTH of you!
You mention acting as-if the letter doesn't exist. I agree with that. Until and unless she gives it to you, it's hers. Not yours. It doesn't exist.
But what else are you acting as-if? (bearing in mind how it looks to CAW).
Here's "something different." How about trying to be consistent? Think about it. You've been trying so hard to find that magic "something different" that will "work."
CAW doesn't know what the heck is going on. From her perspective, your behavior is irratic. She doesn't know who the heck is lying in the bed next to her.
And speaking of which...
Quote: Sunday nite, I felt better and at bedtime I notice CAW laying on her back without any sheets (we sleep in the nude) ... which is one of her passive signals, but I didn't deliberately didn't make any advances (didn't feel like playing only on her terms) ... but after she fell asleep I did start gettin a bit friskie ... it led to us staying up to three in the mornin.
I’m gonna be brutally honest here, KAW. Please don’t take it the wrong way, but I just have to point out a little irony here that probably isn’t going unnoticed by CAW.
You call a seductive hint by CAW passive. Frankly, a naked woman coming on to a guy doesn’t seem passive to me.
And you deliberately didn’t respond because you didn’t feel like playing “on her terms.”
I’m not sure from your post if you were acting as-if you didn’t want her, or if you were reacting to your perception that everything has to be on her terms, but I’m glad you followed your hormones ( which are natural by the way ). Just stop and think for a moment how your rejection would have made CAW feel. Do you think it would have drawn you closer together?
Quote: We all use the analogy of this being a rollercoaster ride, but with CAW's extreme vacillations, lately I feel more like I'm the back of bucking bull ... mechanical bull that is ... on the top notch ... ride em urban cowboy!
Here’s the thing, KAW…
Your goal is to bring you and CAW closer together. In order to achieve that goal, you’ve tried so hard to analyze what’s wrong with her that your perception of her is worse than her perception of you.
Acting as-if is not the same as posturing, KAW. Posturing begets posturing. It pulls you apart. Acting as-if you accept CAW – vacillations and all – brings you together. Why? Because CAW starts to feel accepted, and because if you truly work at it, you start to think of CAW in an accepting way. In other words, you act as-if you accept her until you do accept her. And the circle is unbroken. The more you truly accept her, the more she feels accepted…
Take it for what it’s worth, KAW, but do you think that CAW feels you aren’t the man she married?
OK, I guess its time to acknowledge how you folks have set me straight. I've come back to this six times since and each time ... Ouch! Guess I kinda forgot how it felt to get whack up side the head ... but hey, when its called for ...
These responses are great and really helped me see how off track I've been getting. Actually, by setting me straight on...
Quote: didn't feel like playing only on her terms
I didn't see how this was much off the same old thinking of before... Ugh! I can't believe I slip back to that without even seeing it. Its just, that CAW wasn't always like this. Just the contary, she use to have a hard time keep her hands off me. So for the last few years, its gets very frustating at times that she has shifted her behavior.
Holdingon, truer words have never been spoken!!! and I need to hear them yet one more time (scratch that ... SIX more times as that's how many times this week I have reread that!) Every bit of what you said is exactly the reason CAW is still here after two years despite all her internal deliberations. If I had been lacking in any of that over the last two years, she wouldn't be with me now. PERIOD. So stick with what works.
So onto what Andy says...
Quote: Here's "something different." How about trying to be consistent?
Andy, I sent you a more detailed email, but simply put being consistant wasn't something different for nearly eighteen months and yet it hasn't been enough for CAW to change much at all in the timeframe. She is still seeing OM, still vacillates between him and me. I guess after 18 months, in the last six, I've been letting my frustrations get the better of me.
Andy, I guess I fell into that trap of 180 + 180 = 360. (I know you know where that comes from.)
Quote: Acting as-if you accept CAW – vacillations and all – brings you together. Why? Because CAW starts to feel accepted, and because if you truly work at it, you start to think of CAW in an accepting way. In other words, you act as-if you accept her until you do accept her. And the circle is unbroken. The more you truly accept her, the more she feels accepted…
I'm probably gonna have to read this daily to keep up my fortitude and keep those frustations at bay in the months ahead.
From Wonder
Quote: You seem to identify what isn't working... if I'm following correctly, it's pulling back. So maybe scratch that one and find another "something different"?
That's the hard part for I was fresh out of ideas, but your phrasing of the question was key to coming up with an answer tonite...
"Finding another something different" to do as Holdingon said...
July 11th is CAW b-day. Never before now have I ever organized a celebration party. I think this day would be perfect to host my first!
Thanks for the whacks ... REALLY ... it finally snapped me back to my senses.
PnB, thanks for the wishes, but gonna be a bit short on the relaxing this weekend as I'm working the nite shift all weekend. The upside is that its my last weekend on nites for the next ten weeks. Bad news is I no longer will be able to hang out here on bb as much.
Hi KAW - Just stopped by for a visit, and WOW, HoldingOn's comments hit me too She is good, no? Another re-think, for me too.
Quote: July 11th is CAW b-day. Never before now have I ever organized a celebration party. I think this day would be perfect to host my first!
YES, YES, YES - this sounds so good. How can OM hold a candle to something like this, which just underscores all the important things in life and being able to live a life of love OPENLY?
Wow, you did get whacked. But in such a good, helpful, turn-around-and-get back-on-track way. I'm glad you're finding it useful.
A birthday celebration-- that's very sweet. And holdingon is right. Give her what she's asking you for-- esp. when it is also what you want!! I do know what you mean about the passiveness, though. Because it doesn't feel like a seductive hint when they're doing that--it feels like something else entirely-- but at the base of it, they want to feel loved and don't want to risk rejection. So give the love--what do you have to lose by doing that?
Quote: Your goal is to bring you and CAW closer together. In order to achieve that goal, you’ve tried so hard to analyze what’s wrong with her that your perception of her is worse than her perception of you.
Yikes, KAW. This one is like looking in a mirror... think I have something to think about as well...
Can I just start this by saying "I love you, man!" I'm sorry to whack you... I know this sucks for you... but you CAN and WILL do this.
Quote: Your goal is to bring you and CAW closer together. In order to achieve that goal, you've tried so hard to analyze what's wrong with her that your perception of her is worse than her perception of you.
I have to remember this... I have to stop judging my H... stop thinking how could you, etc. Truly forgive him.
Someone else said something about not showing them rejection in any way at all. It may have been Nik. But that made me stop and think, too. To be accepting of them.
They know what they have done... they have to live with themselves... and the rejection they feel, plus any we give them, plus from their kids, friends, etc. It must be difficult to be where they are.
So, I think we have to be the welcoming ones. Put the past behind us... truly let it go. Start fresh each and every day, every moment if we need to... This is the person I love, I want to spend my life with... and go from there.
It may take a very long time for them to feel safe enough to let that horrible guard down...
Relax. Appreciate. Be calm. Laugh. Enjoy. Be secure. Be loving. Be loved. Don't personalize. Don't ASSume. Accept. Be grateful.
). Just stop and think for a moment how your rejection would have made CAW feel. Do you think it would have drawn you closer together?
Its just, that CAW wasn't always like this. Just the contary, she use to have a hard time keep her hands off me. So for the last few years, its gets very frustating at times that she has shifted her behavior. 
She is good, no? Another re-think, for me too.