Sorry folks ... didn't mean to leave you all in a lurch like that. Had I known I'd be tied up for the better part of three weeks, I wouldn't had started this thread when I did ... now to address all those wonderful responses (which may a few posts to get them all in) ...
Shiny: Your assessment is pretty much what I have come to believe. One thing about her journalling is she only does it when she feels her worst. Her journal of late has been buried under an ever growing pile of clutter on her nightstand, so I believe her last entry was back in Nov just prior to her upswing again. The fact that is was just sitting there collecting dust, I read as this time it might be for real and why I was surprised to find by other sources about her thinking again about leaving. From what I have put together, I think D10 must had overheard the phone convo CAW was having with her D24 about D24 moving back to the area next year and CAW moving in with her on the day D10 made her diary entry.
Quote: So....what IS going on that's different in this UP cycle, KAW...do NOT underestimate the change in your work schedule and the things you're doing around the house. These are HUGE to a lot of women (including myself).
Yes, I think it all plays a part and that I'm even havin' some fun playing Mr. Mom. CAW even is showing signs of coming out her depression despite she hasn't been feeling physically all that well of late ... but on the other hand ... these letters keep coming from D24, which keep repeating the same theme. This month's letter stated, "Soon we will be together again <SNIP> and then you won't have to be tied to just one man." WTF!!!????
I can't help be keep wonder the reason she is more upbeat is not because of me or anything I'm doing, but because she is looking towards this day D24 keeps writing about. She has mentioned before how for years she put on a facade that she was happy with her life when she wasn't. Is she doing this again just to keep the peace knowing she only will have to do it for a little while longer?
I've been wrestling with this for these last three weeks and I don't know why it is so difficult this time around to push these thoughts out of my mind. I've been thru this before and had a better handle on it before. I know it really doesn't matter ... that even if it were true ... it doesn't change what I'm to be doing over the next year ... to be true to who I want to be ... so why is it bothering me so? Actually, I've been a experiencing a swelling of anger and while CAW does not seem to have noticed, I feel that it is affecting my actions some, eventho I'm trying not to let it.
... and yes Easter was a good one and like every year included homemade cheese ravioli made by CAW's grandmother. Yummmm!
Quote: KAW, would you please refresh my memory? What happens when you go a bit dark with your W
Being that CAW had never moved out, going dark was a tactic that I never really applied. Ironically, it was her preception that I went "dark" on her during the course of our M that caused its downfall, so one of my big 180's was to show I no longer wanted to be in the "dark". What I had come up with was to remind her daily, I am always willing to share time together whenever she wants. Even in the face of her indifference I would continue to be willing and accessible to give her a chance to change her mind. Sometimes this worked and when I saw it didn't then I would give her total space and do my thing ... A tricky "reverse DBing" strategy but it worked. The only point where I went dark gray, was when her hostility grew because she was blaming me for keeping her from being happy, so I backed off as much as I could in an attempt to remove myself from that equation and over time her anger subsided.
The only other time I have backed off was last spring when she re-initiated contact with OM and started giving me the cold shoulder. That's why my yard is now minus an unsightly tree trunk and two boulders as I had plenty of time to dig them out by hand!
Tal, I agree with your succinct list of options. Not really all that different then when the bomb first went off. Option 1, obviously, is a direction I would hope we could avoid and as I stated to her the first time, if she chooses to pursue this option, I don't know I don't think I can remain open to an "us" if she decided to take that course as I don't think I could live with being second choice afterwards. Option #3 is currently one of my greatest fears I struggle. Wondering if there is a way to circumvent this while hoping for option #4 to play out. Option #4 is the outcome I'm striving for, which is why I have stuck it out this far ... but at some point, I guess if I stop believing in option #4, then I will need to consider option #2.
Replace the word "option" with "door" and I could be playing "The Price is Right". ... but what it come right down to, is the only option I can choose is option #2 (bearing in mind that option #3 can result by my ineffectness to choose option #2.) ... so it comes down to the million dollar question ... At what point do I act upon option #2?
Livnlearn: Thank for dropping by and the support.
Quote: You wrote a very memorable post on my thread a while ago, about the ocean liner taking a while to turn around. Well, right at the moment my ocean liner seems to have juddered to a screeching halt, cut the engine, and is apparently totally confused about which direction to move in, and seems to prefer being buffeted about by the raging high seas...
... but on a positive note, its no longer heading full steam ahead away from your shore. As for your question about residing in limboland for years, well I refer you to my above comments to Tal.
PnB: I hoping I can continue riding wave too, ... its just now knowing I might have to ride it for another year, I starting to feel sea sick.
Hoping:
Quote: There are many new people here, with fresh ideas..
That was my thought with starting a new thread. This bb is such a deep well of resources from such wonderful people.
Cathy & LL: I value both your words equally in hopes of finding ways to change the dynamics I'm currently while keeping a realistic eye on what is obtainable. In one aspect, I guess I too am asking the same questions CAW is ... "Is there something better out there I can go for? Do I risk everthing I have to obtain it?"
Andy: My ole' pal.
Quote: I’ve been accused of victim mentality. I’ve been told that I’m a great guy, and that I could easily find someone else. I’ve been told that if my love for my W hurts me so much, then why not just stop loving her? If love is a choice, then logically, it goes both ways. Either my W can start loving me, or I can choose to stop loving her.
Perhaps that’s the ultimate 180. But to be honest, KAW, I think the past 25 years are too deeply ingrained in me. I honestly don’t believe that putting all of that behind me would make me happier. I’m not happy, KAW. Make no mistake about that. But I also know that I wouldn’t be happier if W left the house. She thinks I would. “Out of sight, out of mind,” I guess. But she’s not a goldfish that I can just flush down the toilet and get a new one.
Sorry, KAW. I’m rambling a bit. Not sure where I’m trying to go with this.
I kinda think I do ... How does the choice to stop loving CAW going to make me happy? I've loved her for 23 years and that love is part of what makes me happy. That love never waned, just how I expressed it. To add to that, to walk away from that love after 23 years would make me feel like a failure? Right or wrong, it is how I would feel? How would that make me happy? But Andy, is that clouding our vision of how we see our future? Is it a true basis to which to hold hope against that once again our S's will feel as they once did or is it an illusion we are deceiving ourselves with? Andy, I'm so sorry that you have not been able to make any headway in your sitch. I don't wish to see you taking up a permanent residence in Limboland. You've been here far too long as it is.
Slowly:
Quote: i know this is against dbing rules, but IMHO, your w is a silly cow.
LMAO over this! CAW's motif in the kitchen is black & white dairy cows. There are ceramic cows everywhere! Now, I'm gonna have a difficult time not picturing my W's face among them each time I walk in. Thanks for the smile you brought me with that one!
Catching up your update there and a few things struck me:
Quote: Actually, I've been a experiencing a swelling of anger and while CAW does not seem to have noticed, I feel that it is affecting my actions some, even though I'm trying not to let it.
Sounds like great DBing if she doesn't notice this. But I have fallen into this also, getting angry and frustrated about things that she MIGHT be thinking. There have been some things that my W has done that have made me angry and my anger has swelled, but it is best to use a different channel to express that anger and not the old way of "in your face" screaming. Thank God for my heavy bag!
Quote: I guess I too am asking the same questions CAW is ... "Is there something better out there I can go for? Do I risk everthing I have to obtain it?"
Have we or have we not all asked ourselves this question at one time or another? And it is usually after all the initial pain and anger goes away. I think this is a byproduct of detachment, where we detached from our outcomes so much, that we think whether what we are doing is worth it or not. I, for one, am struggling with this question too. But the answer will always be the same until the ink is dry, "Yes, it is worth it, even if my W and I reconcile or not." And it is because of the valuable lessons learned and becoming a man that I can be proud of.
Quote: to walk away from that love after 23 years would make me feel like a failure? Right or wrong, it is how I would feel? How would that make me happy?
Its one of the hardest pills to swallow for me too, and I have only been M'd for 8 years. My love for my W will never die. I care for her and hope to the high heavens that nothing happens to her. I don't need a piece of paper to tell me that. My heart will always contain love for my W, even if we D. So, if we D, I don't consider it failure on my part, but the love between us wasn't strong enough to keep each other in our lives as H and W. And even though my D procs are coming to a close, all the nasty things said and done, and I almost at the finish line, I will still love this person, because I chose to spend a little of my precious life with her.
Keep it strong!
Triple J
Things were different then. All is different now. I tried to explain, somehow..........
Eddie Vedder (Pearl Jam)
Quote: What have you done, or are you doing, to start moving forward with your life, with or without CAW? I don't mean starting a relationship with someone else, but could you be doing things that are more jsut for yourself, that will feel to CAW that you might be moving on without her?
This one is tricky, because she felt I was moving on without her during the M, so she had felt I'm capable. When I backed off last spring, it was also an attempt by me to say ... OK if you're gonna do your thing ... I'll show you can start doing my thing again, but with a twist and that was to keep my daughters more involved in what I was doing ... Went to movies with them when CAW didn't want to go ... took day trips to parks & playgrounds ... spent a lot of time making the yard nice again ... went to computer & car shows ... got more involve in some hobbies that I had shelved since the bomb, etc...
but at the same time I didn't want her to feel I was no longer going to address her needs. So when the family car (station wagon) was on its last leg last year, I decided to let her pick out the next vehicle she wanted to drive around. (and to put the kabosh on her allegation that I won't let her select any of our vehicles altho that wasn't true, but I won't get into that right now.)
KK:
Quote: do we ever really stop db'n???
NEVER! ... that is if you wish to continue striving for and forever keep your own personal happiness and how that relates to all others involved in your life. ... OOPS, I think Lostlove said it better in the next post.
Bridget:
Quote: But consider a mad trip to the West Coast, renting a sportscar with a good sound system, and cruising along the beach with the wind in your hair.
Is this an invite to have my own MLC? (Just kidding!) ... but I have thought, how long could I keep this up before I start thinking like a MLCer? Aren't these the kind of stresses that over time drives them to that point?
Maybe a trip to the west coast is in order ... its been 26 years since the last time I was there.
Merrick:
Quote: We are not far from one another. Maybe we can get together in White Plains for dinner one night and share war stories and battle strategies.
I had wanted to post to your thread today, but I had found it locked. I've been on this bb from nearly two years and come to know many here I like to call my friends, but I have never any in person. Merrick, I would like that.
... and I want to thank all the stop by with their well wishes for CAW & I. One of the biggest issues that contributes to her depression is her health and how its one thing right after another ... gall bladder, back surgery, hernia (two), depression, panick attacks, diabetes, reflux, heel spur and now headaches ... all in the last ten years and she is only 42.
Well I think that catches me back up on my on thread ... time to visit some of my cyber friends ...
Hi KAW - Just wanted to pop in to say it is great to see you back on the boards, and sounding more upbeat than 3 weeks ago. I'm glad the tests came back ok, Lord knows things are complicated enough
Quote: This one is tricky, because she felt I was moving on without her during the M, so she had felt I'm capable. When I backed off last spring, it was also an attempt by me to say ... OK if you're gonna do your thing ... I'll show you can start doing my thing again, but with a twist and that was to keep my daughters more involved in what I was doing ... Went to movies with them when CAW didn't want to go ... took day trips to parks & playgrounds ... spent a lot of time making the yard nice again ... went to computer & car shows ... got more involve in some hobbies that I had shelved since the bomb, etc...
You know, I'm wondering if there is another side to this. My H too knows I'm capable of moving on without him, and I often wonder if he is hanging on to OW as a back up in case I am no longer around? Is there a way of showing them, convincingly, that we can move on, but choose not to?
Try as we may to avoid it, we do nevertheless get sucked into their drama, don't we? Take care, KAW. Hugs, Slowly
Quote: I’ve been accused of victim mentality. I’ve been told that I’m a great guy, and that I could easily find someone else. I’ve been told that if my love for my W hurts me so much, then why not just stop loving her? If love is a choice, then logically, it goes both ways. Either my W can start loving me, or I can choose to stop loving her.
Perhaps that’s the ultimate 180. But to be honest, KAW, I think the past 25 years are too deeply ingrained in me. I honestly don’t believe that putting all of that behind me would make me happier. I’m not happy, KAW. Make no mistake about that. But I also know that I wouldn’t be happier if W left the house. She thinks I would. “Out of sight, out of mind,” I guess. But she’s not a goldfish that I can just flush down the toilet and get a new one.
Sorry, KAW. I’m rambling a bit. Not sure where I’m trying to go with this.
I kinda think I do ... How does the choice to stop loving CAW going to make me happy? I've loved her for 23 years and that love is part of what makes me happy. That love never waned, just how I expressed it. To add to that, to walk away from that love after 23 years would make me feel like a failure? Right or wrong, it is how I would feel? How would that make me happy? But Andy, is that clouding our vision of how we see our future? Is it a true basis to which to hold hope against that once again our S's will feel as they once did or is it an illusion we are deceiving ourselves with? Andy, I'm so sorry that you have not been able to make any headway in your sitch. I don't wish to see you taking up a permanent residence in Limboland. You've been here far too long as it is.
You got my number, pal!
But I don’t believe what I want is clouding my vision of the future. To be frank, KAW, I’m intentionally deceiving myself. Intellectually, I know my chances of piecing my M together are slim.
It can be argued that false pride is keeping my mind in the past. If it’s over, then the best thing for all concerned would be for me to let go. W has changed. I have changed. End of story. We had a good run, but it’s over.
Call it pride if you like, but There’s one basic value that I can’t shake. It has always been my core belief that the most important thing in my world is my family, and an huge part of that is my M. It can be argued that if my M is causing pain to me and my W, then it can’t be good. Not for me. Not for my W. Not for our kids. Better to leave it in the past and move on.
It’s hard to counter these arguments, KAW. I don’t have the words to counter them. All I can say is that I love my W, and to force myself to look at her negatively… To force myself to stop loving her would be false to my own beliefs. DB is about changing yourself, not destroying all you believe in.
I’m not trying to foist my values on you, KAW, but I just have a gut feeling that you feel kinda the same way.
Hey..how are things? Hope ok..I know you have been busy with your new job hours and CAW's health issues..it's stressful..take care of yourself.
Can I steal your thread a minute to say hi to Andy?I used to follow your thread way back when..I am not sure if you ever posted to me..but I too have been m 25 years, and I know that letting go of that is heartbreaking...I am so very greatful to be able to say that my m has been turned around..my h is coming back..after almost 2 years apart, and another 3 of slipping apart.I guess I just want to tell you that if you truly believe that you belong with your wife, then don't lose that hope...I prayed for a long time to have my h come back to me, then I read somewhere that that was asking for something that might not be possible..so I asked God to make him happy and to be at peace with his life, and I threw in if that might be with me ok, if not then I would let him go.. but not stop loving him and not hold any anger..knowing that I loved him and that we and 2 great kids and many happy memories. Last fall he talked about doing something "legal", when I was ready..I said I may never be..I detached further..less calls..On super bowl Sunday, he called , came to "talk", of course I thought he was really dropping who knows what..he asked for forgiveness, and wanted to restore our m..and now the work begins again..so keep faith in your heart..no matter what the end is, believe in yourself and your feelings.
Her journal of late has been buried under an ever growing pile of clutter on her nightstand, so I believe her last entry was back in Nov just prior to her upswing again. The fact that is was just sitting there collecting dust, I read as this time it might be for real and why I was surprised to find by other sources about her thinking again about leaving. From what I have put together, I think D10 must had overheard the phone convo CAW was having with her D24 about D24 moving back to the area next year and CAW moving in with her on the day D10 made her diary entry. 
... but what it come right down to, is the only option I can choose is option #2 (bearing in mind that option #3 can result by my ineffectness to choose option #2.) ... so it comes down to the million dollar question ... At what point do I act upon option #2?
(Just kidding!) 
... time to visit some of my cyber friends ...