Divorce. Thanks Obama

[qt4x11]

Yeah I get you. I know intellectually (and spiritually) you're right. I'm just thinking about the old me that entered into my marriage 10 years ago. None of these things ever crossed his mind, and I think it's worth at least considering the potential pitfalls.

[Mach1]

Yeah I get you. I know intellectually (and spiritually) you're right. I'm just thinking about the old me that entered into my marriage 10 years ago. None of these things ever crossed his mind, and I think it's worth at least considering the potential pitfalls.

Possibly the formula for not finding yourself in a toxic relationship....

Once you know, you can't ever "not know" again....

[Jack_Three_Beans]

qt

A lot of my friends have chimed in already.

Why are you potentially punishing someone who dosen't deserve your mistrust because of the mistrust you have for your wife?

Does this mean when you are walking down the street and see a woman she automatically is placed at the same level of trust as your wife?

I mean the reality is each person is given a certain ammount of trust when you first meet them, we all do this and that trust either grows or withers based on further interaction with that person.

Your worrying about a future that doesn't even exist.

[qt4x11]

Jack, I'm just chatting, these are not my hard and fast beliefs. I don't want to give into negativity and cynicism, and I would like to eventually get to a point where I enter into any new relationship with an open heart. That's how I am naturally. I'm just trying to reconcile my natural inclination with this ... experience I'm going through and what it has to teach me.

[Zues126]

I appreciate that a LBS can't control their WAS, they can't control the world, and all they can control is their response. I completely agree that the LBS should learn from the experience, find ways to be appreciative for what they still have in their lives, and become the best version of themselves they can be for the future, whether single or married.

I simply don't see how that can't coexist with a passionate distaste for divorce.

I don't believe in slavery either. If I or someone I loved was enslaved, I wouldn't be able to control that. I wouldn't be able to change the world I live in. And it wouldn't benefit me for me to stew in anger every day, and let that poison my heart or overshadow the joy I have to walk this earth and celebrate what I was given by God. But does that mean I couldn't hate that part of our humanity, and speak out passionately to use my influence to try to contribute to making a better world?

I think qt is spot on in what his anger is telling him. Conditional marriages are the biggest social problem facing our culture. Of course it requires growth to be a good partner. But why is divorce defended because we hadn't grown yet? What happened to the idea of for better or worse, staying with a partner the way you ride out the highs and lows of a stock market, and realizing years later the investment was a good one because when they grew you were there, together, with an intact family and many years of common experience and an unbreakable commitment to each other?

I laugh when I see it from a macro scale. We have the same number of adults in this country looking to partner up, maybe 250mil. Half of them get divorced looking for more than they had in their current relationship...but the overall population pool is the same. If they find happiness it's probably with someone that some other person walked out on, and that probably happened after they went through some failed rebounds, grew older and wiser themselves, lowered their expectations, and were ready to settle and let go of their entitlement. And many more never find that happiness as is reflected in how the divorce rate skyrockets on M2 and M3. But either way it's the same group of people breaking up and forming new relationships, and each time it leaves a broken family with compounding problems and scars, and sets the precedent for walking away when things get difficult which essentially all marriages will.

I guess I'm making two points. One is that I don't believe in divorce. The other is that I don't feel I need to embrace or accept the practice of destroying families to find peace and joy in my life.

I have come a long ways towards acceptance. I spend time each day being appreciative for what I have, and I have a lot. I've been blessed with good friends, amazing children, and so much more. I have grown from this, I am a better dad, have found more joy day to day than ever before, and have learned not to put off my happiness simply because there are things I haven't accomplished yet or because there are pieces of the world that I don't like.

But I will strongly speak out against divorce and infidelity when I have the platform. This doesn't fester anger in my heart. It makes me feel good that I can cast my vote and do my part to make the world a better place. Maybe I help someone like qt by validating his pain so he doesn't feel like he's wrong to feel this way, maybe I plant seeds that help someone remain committed to their next relationship when it gets tough so they can realize the fruits that come from navigating through the off season. And no matter what I can sleep soundly at night knowing that while I can't control society, at least I did my part to speak up for something I passionately believe in. And along with the other areas I've grown, that IS me being the best version of myself.

[Surfer]

I laugh when I see it from a macro scale. We have the same number of adults in this country looking to partner up, maybe 250mil. Half of them get divorced looking for more than they had in their current relationship...but the overall population pool is the same. If they find happiness it's probably with someone that some other person walked out on, and that probably happened after they went through some failed rebounds, grew older and wiser themselves, lowered their expectations, and were ready to settle and let go of their entitlement. And many more never find that happiness as is reflected in how the divorce rate skyrockets on M2 and M3. But either way it's the same group of people breaking up and forming new relationships, and each time it leaves a broken family with compounding problems and scars, and sets the precedent for walking away when things get difficult which essentially all marriages will.

Zeus,

You make a very interesting point - I have not thought about this 'population pool' theory before. Of course it assumes that everyone has already been married. But in fairness, given a certain demographic, you can certainly assume (for the sake of the theory at least) that most, apart from those that are unmarried by choice or the choice of others, have been married. So let's assume that is correct - and I don't dispute it (broadly) to a degree.

This leaves you with 2 types of divorcees it seems, namely;

1) Those that learn from their mistakes.
2) Those that don't.

Personally, I would rather learn from my mistakes, if possible by correcting them in this M, but definitely, if that is not deemed acceptable to my WW, given time (this cuts both ways of course) I certainly won't be making the same mistakes twice.

Surfer.

[Zues126]

Yeah, it was a rough sketch. Clearly some haven't been married, and maybe there are some princes and princesses out there 'unclaimed'.

The general idea is that while it might work out for a small percentage at an individual level, it is a losing strategy at a macro level. It's essentially a zero sum game (same cards being re-dealt) with a cost to play (broken homes each trial). So from a game theory stand point divorce is a losing play.

Now...you could debate this and say that divorce forces people to learn, grow, and become better people, to 'step up' knowing if they don't they will be abandoned and devastated. Going down that road you could say it isn't a zero sum game, that divorce is a positive because it is the only way to get our population to make the changes necessary to be qualified life partners. In fact, because we don't have a choice about divorce as LBS's this is the stance that many people subscribe to, simply because they want to be 'positive' and 'empowered'. Also, I believe that people want to feel their loss had 'meaning', and they want to believe they have grown so they can re-marry with the hope they will find their happiness next time around.

I just don't buy it. I personally think there is plenty of growth that could be achieved within the original marriage- GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY AND TIME. And that in most cases if you checked back on a miserable marriage 5-10 years down the road, they would've grown a lot and many of those partnerships would've found peace, acceptance, and even joy in many cases...as much as is possible in a real marriage, not a series of 5 year flings that die off once the endorphins are gone and the honeymoon stage ends.

So I believe that the narrative that says you go to college, get a job, get married, have kids, feel trapped, divorce, grow and change, find your independence and bud into the person you want to be, then find a new enlightened partner where you can rejoice in new-age happiness and wisdom for the rest of your days...I believe that narrative is destructive and misleading to many, many people. That is why I speak out against it. The grass is greener where you water it.

[Zues126]

Furthermore, I believe that those that are saying 'you can only control you' as a way to buy into this narrative and rededicate themselves to personal growth can actually be trying to control things they can't.

I know that when I was newly registered I was all about personal growth, and I wanted to either save my marriage or make my next marriage better. But that was the point. I was desperately trying to be this Zues2.0 that I thought would ensure I would get the relationship I wanted and needed in the future.

The reality is that isn't in my control. I can do all the personal growth I want, and my next partner could still abandon me for whatever reason, or get hit by a bus.

The hardest thing for me to accept was that no matter how much I tried to grow, I might never be blessed with the relationship I want.

That doesn't make me cynical, nor am I oblivious to the law of attraction, the idea that we can influence a lot and live in a way to give ourselves the best chances of finding what we desire. I get all of that.

But when I suffer because the pure, unconditional, and all powerful love that we all crave doesn't exist in this world, rather than self-medicate by assuring myself that I will get it if I just keep reading self-help books, I'd rather just have a moment of silence for the pain and suffering that it is to be human, grow where I can but not obsessively, then do my best to enjoy what I have in my life. I'm sure there will be some good times ahead, it doesn't have to be a fairy book to be a fun and meaningful journey.

[qt4x11]

I just don't buy it. I personally think there is plenty of growth that could be achieved within the original marriage- GIVEN THE OPPORTUNITY AND TIME. And that in most cases if you checked back on a miserable marriage 5-10 years down the road, they would've grown a lot and many of those partnerships would've found peace, acceptance, and even joy in many cases...as much as is possible in a real marriage, not a series of 5 year flings that die off once the endorphins are gone and the honeymoon stage ends.

Case in point my parents. When I was 9 I remember my mom throwing vases at my dad's head and my dad sleeping in the other room. Somehow they worked it out and they were happily married for 40 years, until my dad died in 2009. When my dad died, I felt like my mom lost her other half and was inconsolable for a long time.

They simply came from the old school where D was simply not an option. Nowadays everyone is quick to pull the trigger and this type of situation is becoming rarer and rarer. That may be a good thing, certainly it is for cases of affairs and abusive marriages. But the general societal attitudes are impatient for the quick fix, and perfectly good marriages that could have been saved are cast aside because one side was 'feeling bored' or 'wanted to find themself'.

So I believe that the narrative that says you go to college, get a job, get married, have kids, feel trapped, divorce, grow and change, find your independence and bud into the person you want to be, then find a new enlightened partner where you can rejoice in new-age happiness and wisdom for the rest of your days...I believe that narrative is destructive and misleading to many, many people. That is why I speak out against it. The grass is greener where you water it.

I agree with this, we'd see a lot less people wanting the ring, the wedding, the perfect house, the kids - and rushing off to get married without really thinking things through and doing some serious soul searching. I certainly lived this - me and my wife went from dating, to living together, to getting pregnant, then married in less than a year. It was beautiful at the time, but I wish we would have had an opportunity to get to know each other a little more first.

I also now understand my friends who wanted to live together but not get married. Me and my wife used to wonder why they didn't get married. Now I'm realizing their lifestyle choice was perfectly valid.

[qt4x11]

But when I suffer because the pure, unconditional, and all powerful love that we all crave doesn't exist in this world, rather than self-medicate by assuring myself that I will get it if I just keep reading self-help books, I'd rather just have a moment of silence for the pain and suffering that it is to be human, grow where I can but not obsessively, then do my best to enjoy what I have in my life. I'm sure there will be some good times ahead, it doesn't have to be a fairy book to be a fun and meaningful journey.

This may be my future, I can't say that I wouldn't be disappointed if I didn't find love again somehow - but if this is my future then so be it. I'm at the point now when I'm questioning whether the concept of 'perfect love' as the end all be all of human experience is actually antithetical to living authentically.