Strong woman not so strong

[Bee29]

Hi Jack,

I was so proud of how I handled that particular situation so please don't take it away from me! :-)

Ok, seriously now: I understand how it may look like but no, it's not how we talked before. On the contrary, we would start talking and continue talking for hours with absolutely no result (if anything then just bigger distance between us). Or the result would be that my h expected me to apologize (especially if at any moment of the conversation he would say he was sorry - even if not very sincere sorry) and to accept my role in his reaction (i.e. tell him that though I don't approve of what he said/did/yelled etc. I understand he only did that because I pushed him to). And second big complaint would be that I always want to talk when he is too tired so then it's not an equal situation because he does not "function well when tired" so I have an upper hand (and yes, even if it's him who started the conversation) or he is forced to tell me something not nice just to make me upset and stop the conversation because all he wants to do is sleep. So, given the fact that it was 1a.m., we were guests at our friends' house (and when we talk my very temperamental husband keeps raising his voice) and we were both quite jet lagged, I concluded it was not the right moment to have this type of conversation.

Also, and this is also partly answer to your question about threads provided by Cadet, after being subject to his aggressive outburst (in public) I was really not willing to give him the validation he was looking for.

So, yes, the majority of the things in the threads provided by Cadet makes perfect sense (and reading and re-reading it does help me a lot) but I do have a little issue with being friend and validating when my h is acting like a bully. For someone who grew up in a very harmonious family, it's already very difficult to face his infidelity (multiple), raising voice (at me, kids, his parents...), aggression and moods, so MLCer or not there are limits to my understanding.

I do have a lot to learn still, I am amazed how some people on this forum handle the situation and I know I need to work on myself to get there. Working on it!

But I must say, that not getting myself into yet another conversation about everything and nothing must have worked because he was much nicer afterwards and it continues also now when we are back. He stays talking to me even if kids are no longer around and shares his stories from work with me again, did not sign a lease for an apartment I was against him taking (though he was determined to do so), he comes to our house almost everyday and was helping me a lot and driving me around when I had the problem with my eye. Part of journaling I still need to do. In exchange, he gets very nice treatment from me, a lot of encouragement for his work issues and validation of everything else...

[Jack_Three_Beans]

With that explanation then, very well done Bee.

I am going to say that if you guys reconcile that you and I suggest this anybody who gets back together, find the way and means for marriage counseling with a focus on solution based programs and ASK about circular talking, something both of you might benefit from.

[AJM]

Hi Jack. Just a post to say, hi.

I've often wondered how any of us would have turned out if not for the adversities and challenges. And I sometimes wonder if a few of the familiars post - that and some new folks keep me coming back to pay it forward if I can. Or be silent if I can't

Nice to see you on the boards Jack.

AJ

[Jack_Three_Beans]

I do not want to hi-jack Bee's thread.

AJM!!! I am glad to see you too.

I believe that our character shines through only in adversity and challenge. I KNOW I am a better person for this.
I also know that if you are able your advice would be a godsend to many people here. Being able to is a huge part as this site can open old scars sometimes.

Nice to be seen by the way.

[Bee29]

Thanks Jack. Looked it up on the Internet - it's interesting! I'd say learning more about it (and apply in conversations with H) could actually increase chances of reconciliation...

[Bee29]

Not so proud of myself today.

After several really nice days, almost weeks, when I was feeling quite comfortable around my H and the fact that he comes to the house as he pleases, meaning on his schedule, I sent him an e-mail with quite a few things that will definitely bring us back to being weird around each other.

It was a reply to his e-mail in which he informed me that he signed a lease for a flat far from home. A debate we had before holidays. He did not sign then as I told him I did not like the fact that it's far from home and therefore kids would not go visit by themselves.

When we came back from holidays he said he does not have anything yet but that he visited a lot of places, nothing as good as the one he saw before but keeps looking. The day when he had to move out of the former flat he brought a lot of his stuff home (I insisted, he wanted to leave at in the car, at work etc... I mean how would it look like... he was happy I offered to keep it at home until he founds something more permanent and moved his stuff in).

He told me he stayed the first night in a hotel and then had a short term flat for a week. I did not believe him completely but a charge on the credit card confirmed so I was happy he wasn't lying (suspected he may be staying with his muse). I also saw that he had info on a few flats closer to our area so a little hope that he is starting to realize that it's important that he lives close to the kids. At the same time I suspected he is just waiting for the deposit he had at a bank for the other flat to be released before he signs a new one. Sure enough, it's the case. While I was expecting the worst, deep down I hoped he really wants to be there more for the kids and wants to reassure them that he's not that far. Apparently not. I was soooo disappointed!

And I shared my disappointment with him in the e-mail. Worse than that, some things I said can be interpreted (and for sure will be interpreted by MLCer) as a criticism... I also said quite a few nice things about him but I'm sure those will not be noticed. So, I guess, I pushed him back to not trusting me to share stuff with me (again).

I just don't understand how he can be so selfish and not care at all about their feelings. He told me after holidays he wants to be more present than before holidays and that he enjoys kids' company. He asked if I would be ok with him coming to the house when he "can" (it's clear it means when he "wants" or doesn't have better plans) and I just let him know when we are not there. It's crazy as it would mean I need to tell him everyday our whereabouts but I agreed as I was really happy he finally found interest to spend more time with them. It's not always convenient that he comes as he pleases but I still accepted it (though I'm not informing him about when we leave the house, that's just a bit too much).

As it seems, while it's ok for him to come whenever he wants, no one can possibly invade his privacy, so he made sure that he is far enough for kids to even thing about showing up one day at his door w/o notice.

I know I should have said something else or let it be as I cannot change it anyway. It was just too much. I'm not hurting much anymore when he says or does something negative in relation to me. I don't take it personally anymore (most of the time). But when it's about kids I just cannot let it be (a lioness!).

I also asked in the same e-mail to think about financial proposal. He still gets allowances for kids which I think should now go to me. He pays charges for the house as it is automatically charged to his account. But I think I prefer to pay those charges myself if he has a problem with it (even though he shouldn't as he pays nothing for kids so at least pays for that). I cannot complain though, he does pay any bills that arrive, even insurance for my car, that is the reason I did not insist on any discussions on his before. Apart from a discussion on credit cards some month ago (that's always been his problem. Charging but not repaying fully). He was also quite careful spending money before holidays, as we spent all our savings on buying a new flat in a country we call home and where we spend quite a few weekends and holidays. We had a small one but always wanted slightly bigger. So that's what we did. It was his way "to show me that he means it to work on the marriage and wishes to spend the rest of our lives together". That was more than a year ago... I was quite uneasy about that investment even though it was a good buy but spending all savings on it plus getting a mortgage... But since I always believed in investment into property I went for it and I'm really happy I did.

Anyway, what I wanted to say is that he was very careful with money before holidays but I do not trust it will continue like that for long (and again I shared this information with him in the e-mail...). He did a few MLC purchases. Exactly a year ago he bought some Apple products including Apple TV that are still in their original packaging with a price tag on. He never touched it since he brought it home (he was still living here).

I don't even want to see what he will reply. I hope he won't. And that we will just sit down one of these days and agree who pays what and how much he sends me, even if only for me to put it on the kids savings accounts. Just out of principle. He cannot get allowances when he does not live in the same household and does not really raise the kids...

Off to bed now. Feel slightly better after writing about it.

[Jack_Three_Beans]

Bee,

If you are separated, and you sort of are. Let him know you have no problem with him coming over when he can, just let you know before hand by a call or a text.

If you feel like you need a boundary on this.

I know that I did.

[Bee29]

How do/did you guys discuss practicalities like kids visitation with your MLCers? I just had yet another one hour conversation without any outcome. Should I just give up and live like a single mother accepting from time to time that the father sees my children?

A few days ago, I asked H via e-mail to think about financial agreement and what he plans to do with the kids. Today, when he came and asked if there is stuff he could take like towels, sheets, bathroom rugs etc. as he has nothing in his new apartment and he sleeps on the floor (it was his choice to rent unfurnished apartment but I did give him some stuff and offered a mattress that he could sleep on) I asked him if he already thought about it and when we can discuss. He asked what I would like to discuss. I started by saying that for example I think the kids allowances should now come to me and not to him since they live with me. He asked if this is a divorce settlement discussion. I said that it's not to which he replied that he is only willing to discuss things like that as part of the divorce settlement.

He said many other things which were quite hurtful as they showed how much he "cares" about the kids. I am at the stage when he can say to me whatever about me and it does not leave any mark on me anymore but when he is not taking into consideration their feelings it upsets me very much. Luckily he had to take kids to tennis so told him we will discuss when they come back.

When he came back I told him that I do not like being given conditions like that especially that for several months I left him completely alone and did not ask for anything. He said the divorce is what he wants so he is only willing to discuss in that context. I told him that he can indeed do what he wants but that I am not going to file for divorce. And that if he feels like there is no need to discuss his contribution to raising kids whether financial or contribution in time spent with them that he can leave.

He stayed, said he will look into those allowances and will let me know. If I wanted to, I could just inform my employer that my H no longer lives in the same household and it will be automatically sent to me. I did not do that, instead asked him nicely.

He told me he will check at his work what would happen if he did not live in the same household (if !!!) and will let me know his position. I did not want to be arrogant and tell him that his position is not important on that as they are established rules, so I agreed to wait.

He was happy that we found an agreement and wanted to leave. I asked if he could stay few more minutes to discuss other points. "What other points?!" I explained nicely that it's not very convenient for us that he comes when he wants because we need to plan our time and that often even when he says he will come to cook dinner then he comes right after lunch instead, leaves one hour after his arrival and has no intention to cook any dinner. Also that when he makes plans with kids I usually use that time to make plans with my friends so if then he does not show up it's a problem not only in relation to kids (most important) but also to me and my friends.
He said he will let me know from now on if his plans change.

To my question how often he would like to see them he did not really say anything. He just said that I need to communicate to him if I want him to be with kids (so I guess it's my responsibility now to make plans for him with them? Only so he can tell me then that I decide on everything and just impose it on him?). The only concrete thing he said was that he will not alternate in the house, neither live nearby, that those were proposals he made a year ago, I did not agree then so now he will do as he wants (it was 2 and a half years ago, we were still living in the same house and one day he wanted to leave and another he wanted to work on the marriage so I never really disagreed, neither agreed.).
He said that the only reason why we are separating is that I always decided on everything and he was just an executor of tasks/service provider (huge re-writing of history) and that now it's only understandable that he does what he wants.

I said that in my opinion kids are 50% his responsibility and therefore I am the service provider if he only sees them 2-5 hours a week.
Long story short, whatever I said his responses were something completely off and we did not conclude on anything. Then he told me I have to get used to the fact that I will not reach my objectives I set for myself for different discussions. That it happens in life.

He is so arrogant in his responses. A few times I was bitting my tongue not to tell him that if he wants to behave like this he cannot come to the house (or only at pre-agreed times) and not to interact with me, just with the kids.

One more thing worth to mention in relation to kids sharing, when I said that if he does not want to agree between ourselves and goes to the judge instead then the judge will decide on what's best for the interest of the kids and that it may be for example us alternating in the house (kids absolutely want to stay in the house which I understand and fully support, they should not pay the price. And I would still see them everyday as I would make that happen - if they wanted to, of course.). To this he said that no judge will decide against wishes of the kids and he knows they will say they want to stay with me. Not trusting him and suspecting the worst of him these days, I wonder if that's what his game is. That he just wants to be free to have his new life and new family and does not want to be bothered..

I'm so tired of all this. I'm starting to think that it was much better when he saw kids only for an hour twice a week. Definitely better for me!

Btw, he refused the mattress offer as he said he decided he wants to do it differently (go and buy it today) and he wants to do thing as he chooses not what I impose (!) on him...

Other than that, I'm very nervous about my health situation. Had several tests done last week as retina specialists suspect I may have toxoplasmosis and that is why I had the problem with my eye (still do but at least I can wear lenses now so I can function more-less fine. It's very difficult for me with glasses, I have very strong correction and glasses distort everything I look at.). I'm on antibiotics while waiting for results. If it's confirmed, it will mean many weeks on antibiotics. If it's not then the search will have to continue. And I just hope it's nothing more serious...

Nice weekend to all!

[kml]

First - I hate to bring this up, but if they are thinking toxoplasmosis is a possibility with your eye, they HAVE tested you for HIV, right? If not, you should insist on it. Very unlikely but WASs have been known before to give STDs as a parting present.

Second - if you haven't seen a divorce attorney already, you need to see one now. This doesn't mean you have to be the one to file, but an attorney can tell you what is in your best financial interests. It may be that H is already paying more than he would be required - OR it may be that he's dragging his feet because he knows he would have to pay more.

Also - it's rotten that he's not spending more time with the kids. Sadly a common WAS trait. If he is good with the kids when he has them and the kids want to see him - go ahead and insist that he take them every other weekend. At least you'll get a break.

Quit asking about rotating in and out of the house - it sounds good in theory but it seldom seems like a workable option with a WAS. Renting three homes would be prohibitive, and he doesn't want you to rotate into his little lovenest (and do you really want to stay there and be surrounded by evidence of his (likely) flirtations?)

But whatever you do - talk to an attorney first. Don't try to negotiate any of this with your H until you have a good idea of what you are likely entitled too. This is a strategic negotiation, a business deal, and you need to separate the financial from the emotional.

[HaWho]

Hi Bee - well, I sure do hear your h coming across as an entitled teenage punk! I laughed out loud at him saying he would check on what the rules are "if" he were doing what he is already doing! His moral compass has been thrown out the window and he's doing the "me, me, me MLC Macarena."

Regarding visitation with the kids, my advice? Well, if he doesn't initiate to come see them, I wouldn't ask him to do so. Of course he should be doing this as any responsible father should be doing. But, it sounds like he's too lost to even have the conversation! And this is par for the course in MLC. If he's as spacey as my h was, your h may forget to come see the kids or to follow through with his responsibilities. In which case, you'll be tracking him down and acting as the authority figure in his life (MLC trigger), and he'll view that as you further imposing your will on him (already an issue he just voiced). Ultimately, can you make someone do something and what kind of a toll is that going to take on you to micromanage that?

Now, before you think "well, it's great for HaWho with her live-in MLCer to give me this high brow armchair advice." Actually, from the way my h lived you'd think I was running the Ritz-Carlton here! He took no interest whatsoever in parenting or anything else for that matter! He was so lost. It was like he didn't even really see what was going on around him.

By the way, just to make you feel better, it could be worse. YOU could be fighting him for time with your children. He could be wanting to move them far away. I think that would be far, far worse.

In the end, if you try to set up a visitation schedule, I advise you definitely set some boundaries about his coming and goings.

I am sorry. Co-parenting with an MLCer is very difficult.