MLC, WAW or WW?? Who really knows? Help...pls

[Cadet]

I have the DB book. I have read it once but need to go through it again. I'm debating DR, is it more or less the same, or will it supplement the DB book? I'm on the fence.



Thank you Cadet... I have followed this board for a while now. It is a real honor to actually correspond w/you. Though I wish the circumstances were different

ROE

I will leave you in Linda's capable hands, dont let her fool you to thinking she is not a vet.....

DR is an updated version of DB, of the two I like it better, but stick with DB for now, and be sure to get started on all of the homework.

[Cristy]

Hello ROE,

I'm so sorry for the situation you are in.

You won't be able to insist she do or stop anything. You can set boundaries on what YOU are willing to live with.

You are at a very fragile point in this relationship and it would be extremely helpful to know what your next move should be. Feel free to give me a call at 303-444-7004 to discuss how we can best help you determine what to do next.

Cristy
Resource Coordinator
The Divorce Busting Center
303-444-7004

[ROE]

Hi Linda, I did not mean to skip over this, just have a lot to do. Also there is a lot to cover with my problems.

What did she complain about...? Her complaints related to me and our marriage specifically. There were many issues she threw out there but to group them into more broad stroke catagories, her complaints revolved around some core issues:

Emotional neglect / Emotional disconnect
Physical neglect
Anger Issues

I can go into more detail but to keep things simple the issues just mentioned are at the core of her complaints about me. I can find an easy arguement about any of her complaints however to argue about "her" feelings would be as futile as her minimizing or ridiculing my current feelings. I may not agree with her but I do validate her feelings. It's not about my opinion. If she felt these things then they are valid. Otherwise she is just lying. I do not think that she is lying about her feelings no more than I am now about my own. In the past I traveled a lot and I am not necessarily a very hands on affectionate type. I'm not making excuses but I have had to look at myself and my personality to understand where she is coming from. If I do not own my issues and downfalls ( as she sees them ) then I have no hope of earning her trust back. I have always been faithful to her and until now I have never had reason to doubt her integrity or motives. Unless I am wrong,, we have never given each other any reason to doubt or lose trust with each other. However, listening to her today, our M was horrible many years ago. With each conversation she would back the clock up until I finally gave up talking about it. We've been married for 24 yrs, had 4 children that are now in their teens. We've been for the most part financially stable. Here recently we have struggled but not collapsed financially and we are digging our way out. I have taken this all on the chin. I have accepted accountability for everything she has blamed me for. I don't agree with everything but point being, I am addressing all the issues. I am validating her opinions and feelings, trying to do something about them. As you can probably guess.. all efforts are dissed as "too little, too late". If I've heard those words once, I've heard them a thousand times in the past 8 months. She refuses to work on our M and R. As mentioned we were never the ones to fight however in the past 8 months she has criticized me and called me every harsh name you could think of. This is not her. Someone else is in her body.

I do feel as though we are beyond reconciling, or at least it appears that way today. She is still hateful. She is openly defiant about her interactions w/OM. She taunts me with unprovoked threats to go to him and do what ever! She has corralled most of her friends to support their relationship. I am painted as the tyrant and he the White Knight. I've given up caring about the comparisons. I have tried so hard to change that perspective but I only make matters worse. Since Father's Day I have made huge efforts to not confront or engage in her spewing. It has helped somewhat but has not ended anything. At best we are mostly civil now. Which I am truly grateful for but still sad as nothing has improved.

I have read about MLC and know this is only the beginning, if you want to look at her as going through a MLC. I want to stand for the sake of our M and family, but I don't think I have the strength to make it. I love her dearly but I am willing to D and move forward w/o her. Or at least I keep telling myself that because in all honesty, I have not detached as of yet. This has been a very painful journey so far and I am only just beggining, if this is MLC.

If this is not MLC but is a WAW sitch. Then there is very little I can do or say about it. Again, with her version this has been brewing for a very long time. Though I can agree that we have had discussions (few and far between) about issues in our relationship, I never thought we were in so much danger. One rebutle I have is that we liquidated the retirement savings in my name to finance some of our real estate investments while keeping hers intact for our retirement. This was done less than 2 years ago, her idea BTW. If she is telling the truth about wanting to leave the marriage 10 yrs ago (or even 5 yrs ago) then 1) she never expressed in any way shape or form and 2) then she knew all along that liquidating my retirement and not hers would screw me over. So do I interpret this as she recently went into her rebellious mode or was she so bent on hurting me that she willingly knew she would leave the marriage and leave me with out a retirement? You see, the demons in my head right now are weighing me down. I am building resentment daily. This is not healthy at all. I am really struggling with the bitterness that is brewing in my head and heart. Yet, she continues with her betrayal of with OM. He is heavy on the pursuit even to her admittance and she not only allows it but taunts me with it and openly meets him every chance she gets.

I JUST WANT OUT!!

I can't take this anymore. I'm tired of the lies. I'm sick of the deception. I am exhausted by the betrayals! Then, I arrive home and I see our children and feel immense pain for them. They never chose this. They are innocent to all of this. I am just exhausted.

All the while her favorite catch phrase... "it's my turn to be happy" or "I'm entitled to finally find my happy"... I'm not trying to be controlling or selfish but I mean... REALLY?? Are you kidding me??

She does not realize or care that she is forgoing her time with her kids by possibly 50% of her time with them after a custody battle/war?? She adores our kids... how does she not see that she is depriving them of their time with their mother and father? Then another unfair scenario for our kids... OM has children / what if I find someone else with children?? The time our kids will spend with us will now have to be split and the affection they deserve will also be shared with the children of our new partners and their children. Again,, our children did not choose this!!!!!!! This is not fair to them. This is just selfish and plain nonsense to begin with.

I have to stop. I'm going for a walk. I will check in again later. I'm sorry Linda,,, everyone.

ROE

[Cessna]

similar sitch. I'm trying to figure out if W is WW, WAW, or MLCing. All 3 possible? No mention of OM yet? Her lingo is not hers, her anger is not hers? Zero good times in marriage. Mentions D for the smallest mistake or infraction. Acts as if something happened an hour ago? Has anyone seen or experienced this???? Hang in there. Lots of Dbers have said things can change. I hope they are right.

[ROE]

Cessna, I hope your right about the changing. For sure things cannot continue as is.

The other question is, when? or Will it be too late?

I feel your pain. My W is not the same person, even she has admitted this. She has also admitted to the EA and OM situation. Maybe this is all scripted in a planned exit, ((shrug)) who really knows.

I have not read your thread, I will look for it so I know more about your sitch.

Take care!

[RosaLinda]

Of course you can call me Linda that's my name. I used to try to hide my identity from my ex while I was standing, hence RosaLinda, but he was not one of those who spy. Lots of WAS and MLCers do.

I understand your feeling of being consumed with jealousy and bitterness about the OM. Your supposed friend. How awful that his wife cheated on him with his best friend, and then he turned around and did the same thing to you. Ugh. You'd think that he would remember the pain he felt.

I can find an easy argument about any of her complaints however to argue about "her" feelings would be as futile as her minimizing or ridiculing my current feelings. I may not agree with her but I do validate her feelings. It's not about my opinion. If she felt these things then they are valid.

You're a pretty smart guy Roe. Validating our spouses' feelings, no matter how wrong they seem to us, is one of the main stays of DBing.

I just finished doing my day job and now am off to my night job, sigh... I'll try to write more later. But for now, just know that I think you are doing all the right things - validating, listening, not reacting to her taunting. It sounds very much to me as if your wife is having a MLC. My own ex said many of the same things and acted the same way. Unfortunately, unless they snap out of it immediately, MLC can take years and years and years.

All the while her favorite catch phrase... "it's my turn to be happy" or "I'm entitled to finally find my happy"... I'm not trying to be controlling or selfish but I mean... REALLY?? Are you kidding me??

No she isn't kidding you. This is all about her. She is not intentionally hurting you or your kids, you're sort of collateral damage in her search to stop her own pain.

I'll write more later if the ER isn't too busy (Friday night, hmmmm, fat chance LOL) but will definitely READ anything you write, so vent away my friend.

PS Cessna, are you a pilot? Cadet was a pilot in the Air Force!

[ROE]

2 Jobs and the calling to help others that are hurting and lost? Wow, I'm so glad you viewed my thread! Are you a nurse at the hospital?

I really don't have much more to add for now. I do want to read your thoughts on this. I'm sure from there we can move further. I have suspected MLC for some time now. I've read up on MLC not just on this board but also on a few others. I have learned a lot here and have put a lot of the advice given here to use. I've also read MWD's book DB and implemented what I picked up there as well. I have focused a lot on Sandi2 and HB's knowledge since I'm leaning toward a WW with MLC. I'm just not sure about WAW as she has threatened to leave but hasn't yet,,, though I do think it is coming. Probably sooner than later. I'm not a religious person but I'm a faithful follower of Christ. To whom I've turned to the most recently. I've tried putting this all in His hands but that also includes detaching, which easier said than done.

Ironically W has always been the pillar of faith in our home and has done so much for our community. However, W has almost abandoned her faith, rarely attends church anymore and during some of her spewing has mocked and been openly critical of God and Christ. I was shocked the 1st time and have asked her to stop on other occasions. Just not her. Really bizarre.

Anyway, my original plan was to stand throughout her MLC if in fact that is the root of what is going on. But I don't think I can out last this thing. Especially with a S and D as she wants. OM is still in the picture and I'm sure something will develop officially there and go public. I do think she has gone PA but I have no proof of that. Only a gut feeling based on very personal information about her I know but choose not to share.

The crazy thing is, I do get a feeling that her A with OM has changed its dynamics. She is still heavily involved w/him. In fact she is out with him and other friends right now having drinks. Yes, I was taunted with that this morning. Part of my earlier venting. Anyway, she has a string of men contacting her regularity. Maybe I'm just overthinking this, very probable. But she has mentioned 1 person I know well since he's coached my kids in rec league sports. She's been hanging out with him when he's around and I'm not and all of a sudden seems to know a lot more about him. I found that curious so I tested the waters and mentioned nonchalantly during one of her conversations about him that he had a GF to which she abruptly spun around and contested my comments in a very defensive manner. I left it alone and told her that I liked him and left it at that. So she is definitely wayward. Also, though she taunts me with current OM, I have noticed on a couple recent times I've shown obvious anger about their R she would storm off in a rage then within a few minutes while still angry will really give an honest effort to prove that she is not pursuing him. I just don't get it. A lot of this just doesn't make any sense to me.

I hope your evening goes well

ROE (Running On Empty)

[trumpet]

Roe,

I know MWD doesn't really advocate for learning family of origin stuff, if there is a chance to save the relationship when she sees clients.

After the BD, I started to go to counseling, and through it found my own family of origin (FOO) issues that I brought into my marriage. My EX-WW had some demons and her own FOO issues as well. I suspect, though don't know definitively, that these issues brought down the marriage. I contributed (look up my sitch if you like - porn addiction...) however, as I feel I'm getting a more distanced perspective on things, all relationships have issues. It's whether we have an understanding of our own faults, and work on making sure we can stand upright on our own two feet, so that neither spouse has to lean into the other one 100% of the time. 1 + 1 = 1 in a marriage. It's crazy math, but it's true.

So, I spent lots of counseling time on my FOO. Did lots of crying. Through it, I've healed some wounds within me from 25 years ago. And I'll be ok - that is what I have learned. I'm divorced now, and I don't cry much for the marriage anymore. I do cry once in a while for the kids - they're struggling now, as I was during the BD, false reconciliation, and the D.

My EX-WW will not fix her MLC or whatever you want to call it unless she deals with the pain of her youth, and what her mom did to her emotionally. From your sitch, there was some issues in the previous marriage that your wife might not really have worked through, and those issues might stem from previous childhood trauma. I'm extrapolating, but it seems plausible... but there isn't anything you can do about it.

Truly - learn to be able to stand up straight in front of the mirror, on your own 2 feet, and be able to smile. And believe it will be ok. Collateral damage you are; and your kids. You're hurt. Anger is a secondary emotion, it comes out when you're not inwardly hurting. Just realize the anger, don't let it become something that overtakes you. You have to realize that your response is your responsibility. What she does isn't. She is throwing her marriage away, and quite possibly will always regret it. Overcoming the horror and grief of watching someone murder a marriage is really tough.

That's why this board helps - to get through the fog, to stop the gaslighting, and start to chart your own path. Save yourself, put on the oxygen mask, before donning them on the kiddos. You will save everyone that way.

[ForGump]

"I'm entitled to finally find my happy"

My W also feels that she's going to find happiness and nothing and nobody is going to stand in the way. She says, "Being a loving parent should not mean martyrdom."

But none of us left-behind-spouses want to keep our spouses at absolutely all cost. What we want is to not have our lives unilaterally robbed by the spouse. Not to have the marriage unilaterally nuked. Not have 50% access to the kids unilaterally revoked. If the marriage was doomed, I would like to have arrived at that conclusion together, somehow.

[ROE]

]If the marriage was doomed, I would like to have arrived at that conclusion together, somehow. [/quote]

I agree whole heartedly, it just isn't happening that way. It's a hard shot to take on the chin. I suppose in time I'll be happy that I won't have to be the one facing and owning the damage caused, looking back.

That one could be even more devastating than being the one left Behinde.

Again, who knows?? ((Shrug))

ROE