My WW saga and where to do from here?

[HTM]

Hey CA27,

Sorry to read about your situation.

I refuse to do any snooping or spying and haven't done so since I read her texts and confronted her. I've found that putting any energy into snooping is just detrimental to my own mental state.

I definitely agree with you on this, don't do it if you can. It certainly hasn't helped my mental state. Plus, once you start it becomes an addiction of sorts; very difficult habit to break.

[CA27]

Hey CA27,

Sorry to read about your situation.

I refuse to do any snooping or spying and haven't done so since I read her texts and confronted her. I've found that putting any energy into snooping is just detrimental to my own mental state.

I definitely agree with you on this, don't do it if you can. It certainly hasn't helped my mental state. Plus, once you start it becomes an addiction of sorts; very difficult habit to break.

It's detrimental you your mental well-being and to the well-being of the relationship, but it does become addictive, doesn't it? Sometimes it even feels like we do things we know will just make ourselves feel rotten.

After a brief stint of snooping I realized it just made me more anxious and that's part of the reason I confronted, so I could be done with the spying.

Also, at this point, I'm sure there would be all sorts of spewing about me to her friends and I don't care to read that at this point when I'm trying to build my self confidence again.

[lt0402]

Hey CA27,

Sorry to read about your situation.

I refuse to do any snooping or spying and haven't done so since I read her texts and confronted her. I've found that putting any energy into snooping is just detrimental to my own mental state.

I definitely agree with you on this, don't do it if you can. It certainly hasn't helped my mental state. Plus, once you start it becomes an addiction of sorts; very difficult habit to break.

It's detrimental you your mental well-being and to the well-being of the relationship, but it does become addictive, doesn't it? Sometimes it even feels like we do things we know will just make ourselves feel rotten.

After a brief stint of snooping I realized it just made me more anxious and that's part of the reason I confronted, so I could be done with the spying.

Also, at this point, I'm sure there would be all sorts of spewing about me to her friends and I don't care to read that at this point when I'm trying to build my self confidence again.

Very detrimental to the situation and yourself once you have determined that a PA/EA is going on. There's absolutely nothing to be gained from that point forward.

Sorry you're here CA27, but there's a great group here to help. We're definitely here for you bud, hang in there!

[MrBond]

"I refuse to do any snooping or spying and haven't done so since I read her texts and confronted her. I've found that putting any energy into snooping is just detrimental to my own mental state. "

I'm going to have to go against this here and say that in your case, you should snoop to protect yourself. Not necessarily your mental state, but your financial stability. You have a young S and your W is amazingly candid in saying that she has no problem using you. Someone like that will leave you broke and destitute. And you'll be left homeless because you were being the "nice guy".

Lock down your finances and DO NOT let her use you like that. I mean if she gets what she wants and you give her everything she asks for, why would she want to change?

[CA27]

"I refuse to do any snooping or spying and haven't done so since I read her texts and confronted her. I've found that putting any energy into snooping is just detrimental to my own mental state. "

I'm going to have to go against this here and say that in your case, you should snoop to protect yourself. Not necessarily your mental state, but your financial stability. You have a young S and your W is amazingly candid in saying that she has no problem using you. Someone like that will leave you broke and destitute. And you'll be left homeless because you were being the "nice guy".

Lock down your finances and DO NOT let her use you like that. I mean if she gets what she wants and you give her everything she asks for, why would she want to change?

Mr Bond, thanks for the straight talk--it's helpful and food for thought. In the past, I couldn't have imagined such a thing, but in the mirror universe world I'm living in right now I do feel like anything is possible. I pay all the bills and have all the passwords to manage the accounts. She is a part-time waitress and takes home cash every night that she spends on groceries, household things, clothes for herself, and going out. She usually deposits some money into the joint account but hasn't lately.

The more I think about it, the more I realize that I have set up a "free ride" situation for her, where she doesn't have to worry about finances (my income covers everything) and can act like a rebellious teenager!

I am setting up an individual account for myself and having a chunk of my income direct deposited into it, as well as some income from a second night job I'm starting in a couple of weeks.

I refuse to snoop because I don't want to put emotional energy into it. Instead I am working to get my ducks in a row so that if or when she tells me shes seeing other people, I can tell her she needs to be independent and set up her own household somewhere else.

Your posts and those of others have given me a great outside perspective though, and have made me increasingly aware of how much I'm letting her eat cake. I need to start working on ways to reverse that which are firm and but non-vindictive.

Thanks again for the insight!

--C

[sandi2]

You said it yourself, this is not the girl you fell in love with and married. Her mindset is not the same as it once was, so you have to realize you are dealing with a different type of person. One who has no qualms about hiding the cash money she makes, lies she tells, disrespect she shows, or doing whatever it takes to fulfill her selfish desires.

Instead I am working to get my ducks in a row so that if or when she tells me shes seeing other people, I can tell her she needs to be independent and set up her own household somewhere else.

Well.......it sounds good, but it doesn't usually work that way. You use logic.........she dosn't. She isn't going to nicely agree that she has to set up her own household.......at least, not without you financially supporting her lifestyle. Don't think for a minute she'll calmly give up her benefits of being in this M. And, I rather doubt she'll just announce that she's dating, unless, she is certain you will continue doing what you currently are doing........which benefits her. She will always think of how she will benefit from..........whatever.........b/c her selfishness drives her. If there is nothing in it for her......she's not interested. You need to remember this as long as she remains wayward.

No matter what her high standards and moral principles may have been in the past........and no matter how trustworthy she was........it has changed. She is wayward and will remain as such, until she suffers some loss, as a result of her waywardness.......and she knows it is b/c of her waywardness.......and reality slaps her in the face.

You cannot nice her back into the MR. It doesn't work with waywards. What does have a more positive affect, is laying firm boundaries with effective consequences if crossed. For the wayward wife, it's about the lack of respect for her H. Therefore, he needs to have inner strength to deal with what lies ahead. She needs to see him as a confident male......and not one she can lead around by the nose. She needs to see a man who is not afraid of her, and who will take up for himself. She needs to see that he is a man she cannot manipulate. If H's would understand that the dynamics need to change before he has influence in his WW......I think we would see a lot more divorces busted.

I suggest you evaluate your MR, and be very honest with yourself.

Many H's get confused about 180's. They figure out all the ways they have failed, and are excited to prove what a great H they can be. The problem with having a wayward W is that his efforts to be the "perfect husband" doesn't work. Don't forget, it is about her lack of respect. So, you will be spinning your wheels, if you don't get her respect, first.
You can't talk her into changing her mind. You can't cater her back into the MR. "Proving your love" to her (the way you think of proving it) doesn't work on a WW. Why? B/c she can't love you unless she respects you. It is a matter of respecting you as a man, and as her H.

So, while you are getting all your ducks in order, you might want to think about the ways she has shown disrespect to you. Little ways, all the way to the bigger show of disrespect. (And if you need help in knowing if it was disrespect or not......just ask me). Then, decide what you can do as you go forward. If you decide you will not tolerate disrespect in your own home......then you had better think long and hard about the consequences if your boundaries are not honored. Don't say anything you are not fully prepared to back up. She will test you!!

Btw, it is best if you don't jump into some new action until you run it by here, first. Many newcomers make matters worse by making some bold move that they don't fully understand. Know what I mean? It takes time to get all the mechanics down.

[CA27]

Well, things really hit the proverbial fan last night! All week W has been telling me that we need to have a "tough talk" but each night she's ended up working too late or in one case was on the phone all night with her bff. Last night she got home earlier and we talked.

To briefly recap the sitch, she announced we were separated 7/2/16 and after a week, I went to housesit for a friend for 5 weeks. W and I had a talk about financials and both agreed it would be better for me to move back. She was adamant about not wanting the MR anymore, but we both agreed to not date or see other people while living under the same roof. I have been back about two weeks

Last night she started off by asking why I agreed to move back in and what I expected from her. I told her to support the family and that I didn't expect anything from her. She kept trying to get me to admit that I was back home because I was hoping to reconcile. I could tell she was baiting me here and if I admitted, she could become furious because I wasn't respecting her feelings. I told her that rec wasn't on my mind and that I wasn't thinking about it because I understood it wasn't what she wanted. She kept prodding this over and over but I didn't give in.

Then she said that it was unfair for her to live "under my rules" in order to have financial support and that she was "boxed in" because she couldn't afford to move out and be free. I told her that that must feel terrible but asked her to explain what rules she felt were oppressive and how exactly she felt trapped.

She said she wanted to come and go as she pleased to see friends and have her own life. She already has that--I don't keep tabs or ask her where she's going. She finally said that she can't tolerate not having the option to date and that that is stifling to her and hindering her from "moving on." She posed it as unfair that she was being held back because I wasn't emotionally ready for her to move on and that that was unfair to her. I validated her feelings on this Then I reminder her that our convo no was very different to what we had agreed to before I moved back in and that I wouldn't be in an open marriage.

She kept arguing that our arrangement was financial blackmail to keep her in the M and control her because I would "pull the plug" on her when ever I felt like it. I validated her feelings on this, but explained that I wasn't going to support a single person.

Btw, it is best if you don't jump into some new action until you run it by here, first. Many newcomers make matters worse by making some bold move that they don't fully understand. Know what I mean? It takes time to get all the mechanics down.

^^oops! J think I jumped into a new action here unfortunately!

I told her that if she was ready to move on and start dating, she needed to move out and set up her own place and that if the marriage was over, we needed to file for D to structure the financial arrangements and figure out custody and she be independent. I feel like this is going off the DB reservation, but it is not an empty threat and I am willing to back up my actions at this point. I do not want a D, of course, and maybe I've pushed past the point of no return, but she kept talking about how the marriage was over and the relationship was over, but we still need to coparent and have a financial arrangement. Well, that sounds like a D. I said that we could figure things out amicably together if it came to that.

All through our talk I was incredible calm and spoke gently and matter-of-factly. She got increasingly angry and more aggressive and at one point started mocking me. I stopped the convo at a couple of points and stood up and stepped back and asked her politely to not yell or curse at me which made her furious but when she calmed down I came back. When I said she needed to move out when she's ready to start dating again she was apoplectic!

I have never seen her that angry or ugly! She called me a few names, which she had never ever done before. I remained absolutely calm. She spewed at me and at one point, apropos of nothing, said that we had a lousy sex life and that I didn't challenge her enough. I know for a fact that our sex life has had wonderful times and boring times, just like everyone else's so I wasn't rattled. I asked her how exactly she felt that I didn't challenge her and she said she didn't really know!

She was so venomous! I had read about what WW's could spew but never thought I'd see it from my own W! It was like a horror movie where someone is possessed. She is so consumed with what she wants.

At one point she said she was taking our (newer) car and moving in with her friend and leaving our S with me and I would just have to deal with childcare during the day. I said that she could do that and I would figure something out even though it would be hard. I asked if that meant she wanted me to have custody of S. She said no, then said she was taking him with her to live somewhere else. I said I understood, but that I wouldn't give my permission for her to move our S to live in someone else's house in another town.

She was furious and said she couldn't believe that I wanted to get the courts and judges involved and bring a lawsuit. I said I wanted nothing of the sort, but that if the marriage is over, I wanted it to be official so that we could sort out all the arrangements and custody and that we could do that amicably.

The convo ended with her getting up and yelling at me that I'd ruined everything and slammed the door shut. She went out to the front porch and creid and got on her phone and I went to bed. At some point she sent me a text message that was autocorrected into pure jibberish. Honestly, I can't make any sense of it. I didn't respond.

This is the most intense and emotional discussion we had ever had. Both of us have been big "conflict avoiders" for years and never really fought. It seems like this was the valve being released. Again, I never once raised my voice or argued with her. I just stated how I felt and my position. I tried to validate whenever possible and this often helped to diffuse. In looking back on the whole thing as I write this, I see that I could have had a productive encounter that didn't go so far. If I had to do it over again, it may have been best to just have said, "well, if you need to start dating, you need to move out. Goodnight!" Perhaps correct DBing technique would have been to say, "Well, if you need to start dating, I can't control you. Goodnight!" I'm not sure, but I do feel like if I hadn't stood up for what we had already agreed to, how could she (or I) respect me?

[JRuss]

I'm a newby, so take this with a grain of salt, but I think you did really well. Far better than I would have. I admire your restraint very much. I'll be following along and, hopefully, some vets will stop by and give you a real critique/review.

Hang in there!

[CA27]

Thanks, JRuss!

I'm sure there is a lot to critique; I'm already in self-reflection mode as I replay the events.

I need to keep it shorter and sweeter in future discussions with the W. Our long convo just went in circles and I could've kept it a lot briefer. Maybe in the long run it was good that she actually started to show her true emotions for a change.

I'm still reeling a bit from the whole thing. It's hard to get over just how entrenched she is with the idea that she would start seeing other people, but that otherwise I would just be a roommate and continue to float the bills and mortgage and be fine with it. She argued so forcefully and passionately that this was the best arrangement for everyone and was incredulous that I did not consent.

We have a standing MC session planned for this afternoon. It's going to be so much fun...

[AndrewP]

B@lls of steel CA27!

The only thing I might suggest is that since you brought up L etc, even if you don't want to go that route you should educate yourself about the S and D processes in your area so that you can be as confident on that subject if she starts tossing fairy dust and wishes your way.