Detaching.....nearly there..

[AndrewP]

Another thought re happy. He says that he cannot find a fault with me, he just feels unhappy and sometimes feels he doesn't want to be married, and he doesn't want to hurt me or make me unhappy.

Interesting.

If it's any consolation Cherry - my WW has said the same sort of thing. I like to think it's because I always treated her with love and respect. Not sure how good of DBing that is, but it made me feel good about myself and being true to my own values.

[Surfer]

Really interesting points made here. Sandi saying that W know how to get a man then they stop doing those things. True - so do men, provided they are not jerks.

Men are simple Sandi is right. He does want to see you happy. Why - because when you smile you light him up. To a decent man, the most beautiful curve on a woman is her smile. This is so so so true. First, look good, well and happy, then give a dazzling smile and pay attention to him when he talks and engage. That's what you did when you met.

The reason most marriages begin heading into trouble is communication failure IMHO. You stop smiling at each other, you stop dressing nice and you stop taking such an interest in each other's conversations. Something becomes more important, kids, friends, other people, the bar, the nightclub, work, sport. I think there must be a few simple things that can make and break relationships and smiles, looking good 'hot even', listening and engaging (or not) are perhaps IMO the bedrocks for change be that positive or negative.

The other little things that help, little touches (on the arm/back etc) doing nice things that elicit a thank you - all help the connection re-establish - for both sexes. Caring for your man and telling him how you appreciate how he works hard to protect you...that's all great too. Problem is - it's so hard to get that message across if there is disrespect from your H.

The killer for Men - as Sandi points out - without question. Number 1. I have zero doubt it's nagging/spewing/criticism/condemnation/complaining. Did you ladies do any of this Cherry/Buxom? It is something that men just deteste. Why? I think partly they go back to being a boy being nagged by their mothers. They don't want that. The want the whole maid in the parlour, nanny in the nursery, cook in the kitchen and whore in the bedroom thing (I don't actually mean a whore - it's just a saying, but they want someone that wants sex as often as they do and definitely not someone who rolls their eyes, in the wrong way, when they do).

There is definitely something in some women; some charm you into a relationship then try and make changes to you. Men don't want to change. They want to be them. Then when men are gone they complain they have gone and life is difficult. When their man has gone they are bitter. I don't get it. They choose this through their actions. I never needed my wife to change, I just needed her to stop nagging, criticising, etc dress nicely and be happy and let me know she cared for and respected me. She used to. Doesn't now, but hey, I'm not so sure I care really. I am happy. I can smile and laugh.

My W might not want me, but my next one is going to get a marriage machine after all this reading and understanding - still got so much to learn. Really quite enjoying the process now.

Apologies - kind of rated a bit there ha ha.

[Surfer]

Ranted even!

[Cherry]

Your insight as a male is great. This is what leads me to confusion, I've never been one to nag- it's not really my character, he's a grown ass man, he should know right from wrong. His complaint about me was that I was TOO independent, I didn't ask him for anything. The 180 from that would be to ask him for things, or do things. But then in this situation, it would be seen as neediness or persuing.

Re sex, also never a problem. Last year, after it blew up with his ex ow, she actually started sending screenshots of messages between them. And one of them, my h actually said to her "I feel all me and W have is just really great sex". I was pretty speechless at the time that even while seeing another woman, he told her he felt he had great sex with his wife.

And dressing good, I've always maintained my appearance and kept fit etc. Again, the flipside of this is that my h has told me that people tell him he's punching above his weight, and how did he get me. I think the issue here is resentment.

All of this just leads me to wonder what exactly is it that has sent my h wayward. What is there that I'm not doing that has led him to leaving. The only thing he's ever said is that I don't listen to him. Which is why on the very few occasions he has spoken to me, I've just stfu and listened and validating.

It's tough knowing what my 180s could be. Or what it is that's sent him wayward

[Buxom]

Hey surfer, I appreciate your views. I have my faults but I was not a nag, criticizer, or anything but the nice girl... boring, predictable, emotionally intense, good mom, too much care taking and fixing.
I think sometimes my behaviour reminds him of his mom.
He was victim of incest from brother. It's all coming to a head and he's sought help just last week. He once said he'd have left me long ago if I hadn't been so Damn nice. I did feel blindsided lately yet all this has been going on five years. My denial lifted a mere three weeks ago.

[Surfer]

Cherry. Do you think he feels that he is not needed? Do you think he feels worthless and alone, almost depressed?

BTW. I can totally understand your feelings towards OW - if she was sending you screen shots!!!!

[Surfer]

Buxom. Too much like his Mom. That can be good at times - if you feel you have a wife that looks out for you like a wife, being a wife, parts are very similar to a Mom. Same as girls with dads with protection. I guess. But if it's too much a Man can FEEL controlled or worthless/invalid. IMO.

The help with the incest is new and a great step. There are no doubt things he is trying to face and deal with that is his journey. Best thing is to be there if he can talk to you. Let's face it, there may be nobody but you that he will talk to about this. Do you think he will talk to you, he's obviously told you he is getting help....?

[Surfer]

I think my faults mirror some things here.

I have been very independent. For example, this sitch happens. W leaves. I leave a very, very well paid job, secure etc. I am less than 2 weeks into it and starting to love life. My new business, my own, is effectively 10 working days old today. I already have sufficient t business to know that my financial prospects are significantly better in my first year than they ever have been. Done the lot, from the BD to the petals, set up, website design, IT infrastructure, clients ents. Etc. I am very much a Driver, Pioneer whereas my wife is probably more and integrator.

I am not communication heavy unless trying to close something. Then my personality kicks in to deliver goals. This goes for persuit of a mate.

My WS biggest complaint was I don't care, I don't listen, she doesn't matter. All of this is totally incorrect - but absolutely correct I the way she feels (unless it's a WW story of course to justify waywardness - most probably some truth but....).

I was the guy that originally didn't think about whether my wife. We'd to talk. More I would ask for 15-20mins just to switch off after work. My wife talks 'a lot' and it often revolves around family dramas (her family, friends etc). She gets so drawn in. I used to try and fix and say 'I get that', 'I think you need to keep some distance as it is sucking you in and damaging you' - whatever 'it was at the time'. I would also say I am not going to get so involved, I will listen but at some point I would move on to try and get her to. It's not that I don't care, but I need to deal with things my way too. I could basically see people offloading as emotional vampires and hurting her.

I think the combination of me being very independent, I can't bake as well as my wife or cook as well (she is amazing at that) but I do hold my own. Beyond that and I can't be a mother - just Dad, pretty much I don't really 'need' anyone. I want my wife and felt I needed her but perhaps this comes accross.

This makes me sound hard and unloving yet she will tell me I am very kind, sensitive and caring - just not to her. I think this is I can deal with that in short bursts, by longer bursts suck it out of me (it used to feel like my W became the emotional vampire - but we were always dealing with someone else's problems - essentially her friends put this on her and she put it on me, not intentionally).

So my point, yes, not being there (also back late in the evening 1-2 nights p.w after client/work drinks, meals etc - normal for my job at the time, don't so much now) not listening, in her mind possibly true unintentionally at times - therefore not caring. Truth is, I was doing all of this for financial security for our family unit. This and the wider family were my life. Hated my job, but did it for us.

So there is a common theme. Independence, lack of communication, being the dominant partner even if you don't mean to (which also seems to be the common theme) - I think this creates feelings that create a MLC type sitch that can then result in a WS.

So when wayward, Sandi, who is amazing - she is like Yoda! ("The truth she tells" ha ha), explains that you can't correct their [feelings of (inadequacy??)] yet. They have to exit the wayward fog by feeling the problems resulting from their wayward ways. My WW hates the job SHE took for independence (but blames me) hates the house SHE moved to with the kids (but blames me) hates that she feels like the leper for the choices SHE made (EA poss PA) etc she is hopefully realising that 'wherever she goes SHE IS there'. The problems remain, so where there is little contact how is it me that makes her feel this way. It's not, not now. I have chosen to sit and wait it out - hopefully she will reposition her mind & her actions may follow. I have no expectations but I hope this happens. In the meantime, no H roles just Dad. Strong independent man etc (don't get me wrong - I did all the tears, begging cr@p).

I think my core point besides this is - what to do to mend their feelings (be that inadequacy or whatever) after 'they' return - if they do. But that's all about the next stage, piecing I guess. Let's just aim towards that stage first is my view, whilst focusing on this one. Detach be the best person you can be to show the nosey neighbour how fantastic you are. To do that, you need to be pre-problems you, attactive for all the reasons they fell for you.

Apologies typed this on my phone. Spelling problems all over no doubt. Oh dear....

[Cherry]

This was the last ow that did that. Not this one. But still, it hurt- because I didn't need to see these things. This was when he made a decision to return to the m, and she very much was the woman scorned and did not want to stop until she had tried to ruin things so he had nothing. Then, he told me how he admired how during his a I was focused on being a good mom.

I guess there is a chance that he feels a little like he isn't needed. But idk. He has admitted to having depression and gets the feeling to self harm. However when I suggested he saw a ic to talk about this- he flew of the handle and said he wasn't crazy and the way he felt had nothing to do with the m.

It sounds like db-ing is really helping you. I'm glad to hear you becoming the best you you can be. And that is the hope really, although having no expectations, the hope is that wherever they go, their problems are still there. In the meantime, we are just distant and being the best us we can be. The best feeling is when it feels like the roles have reversed. No longer are we the sad looking spouse, but they are. And they Q where we are going and what are we doing. If nothing else, dbing helps us to find ourselves and save our sanity.

[Surfer]

Cherry. Interesting.

Do you think something has happened in your H's past that makes him like this? Comments about self harm and nothing to do with the M. Plus also flying off the handle re: IC. This is not how I would handle these things. Then again - I am probably hardly normal. Ha ha.

The good thing is if the way he feels has nothing to do with the M, it has nothing to do with you - i.e. you have not caused how he feels.